mustardoverlordalso some people in this thread are being really shortsighted and selfish because it makes their classes (scout and pocket mainly) much more powerful
meanwhile this update makes 6s and hl fuckin awful
Why would 6v6/hl adopt a plugin to change the way the weapon works from literally anything that isnt a scrim/match server? I understand it sucks that they did this change so late and right before lan etc., but they dont care about that in this game.
[quote=mustardoverlord]also some people in this thread are being really shortsighted and selfish because it makes their classes (scout and pocket mainly) much more powerful
meanwhile this update makes 6s and hl fuckin awful[/quote]
Why would 6v6/hl adopt a plugin to change the way the weapon works from literally anything that isnt a scrim/match server? I understand it sucks that they did this change so late and right before lan etc., but they dont care about that in this game.
milopeople still believed stickies were balanced?
that is what is most shocking to me in this thread.
[quote=milo]people still believed stickies were balanced?[/quote]
that is what is most shocking to me in this thread.
cosamustardoverlordalso some people in this thread are being really shortsighted and selfish because it makes their classes (scout and pocket mainly) much more powerful
meanwhile this update makes 6s and hl fuckin awful
Why would 6v6/hl adopt a plugin to change the way the weapon works from literally anything that isnt a scrim/match server?
random crits
random spread
ever heard of those?
[quote=cosa][quote=mustardoverlord]also some people in this thread are being really shortsighted and selfish because it makes their classes (scout and pocket mainly) much more powerful
meanwhile this update makes 6s and hl fuckin awful[/quote]
Why would 6v6/hl adopt a plugin to change the way the weapon works from literally anything that isnt a scrim/match server?[/quote]
random crits
random spread
ever heard of those?
This is just my opinion: First off I think no matter what happens people will adapt and it won't seem so bad as time goes on. However, in the few scrims I played I think ultimately demo has become more reliant on his team. The problem I see with this is if a flank is not checked properly then a scout from behind can easily take out the demo, as he has little means of defense at close range. While pipe dm could be beneficial, if the scout gets close to you, you'll end up nearly (or in a lot of cases) fully killing yourself if you hit your pipes. I don't fully understand the argument of the pipe launcher supposed to be a primary weapon as playstyle doesn't revolve around what loadout slot your weapon is in. The medigun is used primarily by medic even though iy is a "secondary weapon".
Tl:dr I think it'll be harder to tell who's a good demo at a high level since they'll be so reliant on the team.
Again, this is just my opinion and I don't mean to offend anyone or anything.
This is just my opinion: First off I think no matter what happens people will adapt and it won't seem so bad as time goes on. However, in the few scrims I played I think ultimately demo has become more reliant on his team. The problem I see with this is if a flank is not checked properly then a scout from behind can easily take out the demo, as he has little means of defense at close range. While pipe dm could be beneficial, if the scout gets close to you, you'll end up nearly (or in a lot of cases) fully killing yourself if you hit your pipes. I don't fully understand the argument of the pipe launcher supposed to be a primary weapon as playstyle doesn't revolve around what loadout slot your weapon is in. The medigun is used primarily by medic even though iy is a "secondary weapon".
Tl:dr I think it'll be harder to tell who's a good demo at a high level since they'll be so reliant on the team.
Again, this is just my opinion and I don't mean to offend anyone or anything.
someone please explain to me without sounding like an incompetent high school freshman how this "makes 6s fucking awful"
someone please explain to me without sounding like an incompetent high school freshman how this "makes 6s fucking awful"
mustardoverlordalso some people in this thread are being really shortsighted and selfish because it makes their classes (scout and pocket mainly) much more powerful
meanwhile this update makes 6s and hl fuckin awful
Correction playing 6s and HL as if nothing happened makes them fuckin awful, especially for people that are demo mains.
[quote=mustardoverlord]also some people in this thread are being really shortsighted and selfish because it makes their classes (scout and pocket mainly) much more powerful
meanwhile this update makes 6s and hl fuckin awful[/quote]
Correction playing 6s and HL as if nothing happened makes them fuckin awful, especially for people that are demo mains.
mustardoverlordcosamustardoverlordalso some people in this thread are being really shortsighted and selfish because it makes their classes (scout and pocket mainly) much more powerful
meanwhile this update makes 6s and hl fuckin awful
Why would 6v6/hl adopt a plugin to change the way the weapon works from literally anything that isnt a scrim/match server?
random crits
random spread
ever heard of those?
tf_weapon_criticals "0" and tf_damage_disablespread "1 are commands. "tf_sticky_fulldamage" doesn't exist.
[quote=mustardoverlord][quote=cosa][quote=mustardoverlord]also some people in this thread are being really shortsighted and selfish because it makes their classes (scout and pocket mainly) much more powerful
meanwhile this update makes 6s and hl fuckin awful[/quote]
Why would 6v6/hl adopt a plugin to change the way the weapon works from literally anything that isnt a scrim/match server?[/quote]
random crits
random spread
ever heard of those?[/quote]
tf_weapon_criticals "0" and tf_damage_disablespread "1 are commands. "tf_sticky_fulldamage" doesn't exist.
OblivionageFogHoly crap you all need to stop crying and move on with it
dont u play csgo now
I do, what's your point?
[quote=Oblivionage][quote=Fog]Holy crap you all need to stop crying and move on with it[/quote]
dont u play csgo now[/quote] I do, what's your point?
Hellbent if you think that roamer is just going to shift to secondary pocket then I think you haven't thought about it enough. You don't get away with "crazy stuff" just because you have a demo alive - and the fact that demo is now weaker at defending means that EVERY PICK that you get or every point of damage, or every piece of ground that your bomb takes is proportionately better for your team (seeing as it usually comes to the pocket and scouts acting off this, and your demo just kinda backing up the train these days anyway). If the enemy demo is less effective at holding the choke and spamming aggressively, everything you do is more effective. The only impact that this will really have on roamer play (generalising big time) is less focus on demo on mids, and less moronic bomb & repeat around corners and chokes for days at a time... which if you think is a bad thing for the game, then you're already beyond hope. Have to be effective with what you do, otherwise your team will be punished instead of being able to hide behind demo spam (finally...).
I'm not sure if I like how they went about nerfing stickies yet, but the fact that they have nerfed them is good. As they are, and have been for the better part of the game's life - stickies were pretty disgusting - like what plat and others have said, stickies were the only weapon in the game that rewarded slack aim. Any change which emphasises the importance of effective and coordinated individual and team play is a good change imo. Demos are just going to have to adjust to playing a different style, which I honestly think is less of a shift than when gunboats were first introduced to the game.
The meta will evolve, and so will anyone worth playing on a team with. Hopefully like gunboats it evolves for the better (imo) - really the only problem I have with this update is that (just like last year) they leave it way too close to major events.
p.s. Definitely excited for i52 now >:]
Hellbent if you think that roamer is just going to shift to secondary pocket then I think you haven't thought about it enough. You don't get away with "crazy stuff" just because you have a demo alive - and the fact that demo is now weaker at defending means that EVERY PICK that you get or every point of damage, or every piece of ground that your bomb takes is proportionately better for your team (seeing as it usually comes to the pocket and scouts acting off this, and your demo just kinda backing up the train these days anyway). If the enemy demo is less effective at holding the choke and spamming aggressively, everything you do is more effective. The only impact that this will really have on roamer play (generalising big time) is less focus on demo on mids, and less moronic bomb & repeat around corners and chokes for days at a time... which if you think is a bad thing for the game, then you're already beyond hope. Have to be effective with what you do, otherwise your team will be punished instead of being able to hide behind demo spam (finally...).
I'm not sure if I like how they went about nerfing stickies yet, but the fact that they have nerfed them is good. As they are, and have been for the better part of the game's life - stickies were pretty disgusting - like what plat and others have said, stickies were the only weapon in the game that rewarded slack aim. Any change which emphasises the importance of effective and coordinated individual and team play is a good change imo. Demos are just going to have to adjust to playing a different style, which I honestly think is less of a shift than when gunboats were first introduced to the game.
The meta will evolve, and so will anyone worth playing on a team with. Hopefully like gunboats it evolves for the better (imo) - really the only problem I have with this update is that (just like last year) they leave it way too close to major events.
p.s. Definitely excited for i52 now >:]
flameKanecomKanecoif anything, demo needed a buff at close range combat not a nerf.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEoTQB7h3NQ
Nice argument mason
Try to actually play the class and read what I said again.
It didn't need a close range nerf, if anything it needed a long range nerf, like damage fall off on distance like rockets, less stickies, damage nerf when more than 1 demo per team. Close range is actually the biggest weakness of the class, and you are taking one of the demo most reliable weapons (albeit still very unreliable) at close range and nerfing it even more.
You remember when you feel helpless 1v1ing a decent scout, now it will be even worse. There's no other class so reliant on other classes for selfdefense as the demo. Its even worse now.
Thats the point, are you guys trolling?
Scouts are going to be rewarded more heavily for catching demos with their pants down, AS IT SHOULD BE, and demos are going to have to mentally play more defensive with pre-set sticky traps and be more conservative overall with their ammo and cautious with their dets.
Old case: Scout facerushes you, you throw two stickies on the ground, if the scout semi-dodges he probably still dies from 60-70 splash damage
New case: Scout facerushes you, you throw a sticky on the ground, det, and switch to pipes.
Advanced new case: Demomans not retarded, has 2 stickies on a corner near himself, dets the scout who flanked him, rewarding him for playing on the scouts aggression.
You people need to adjust. The problem was that a demo spamming 8 stickies into a crowd during a mid fight did splash damage to 2-3 people at a time with easier execution than a rocket.
Anyone saying 'up the class limit' clearly hasnt thought about that at all... try pushing and last point without having to pop uber immediately through every chokepoint due to there being multiple traps set up, or going to mid with 1 demo spamming your doorway with another spamming your low ground on badlands mid.
Also, who are you guys to say Valve abandoned us for 7 years?
This game has come a long way since 2007, if there was ever a problem for an invite player or competitive TF2 in general, Robin always helped us. To say Valve forgot about competitive TF2 or ignored it is a lie.
This one patch just changed the game significantly, and if you ask me, this game needed to be changed significantly.
This shit opens up the door for a lot of teams to catch up to the invite mentality and figure out the balance mechanics and what strats may and may not be viable.
It's a shame carnage quit though, this patch is going to be the patch for scouts. 8)
anywhere the demo stands he is caught with his pants down right now, might as well stay in spawn room if we're applying your flawed logic.
[quote=flame][quote=Kaneco][quote=m][quote=Kaneco]if anything, demo needed a buff at close range combat not a nerf.
[/quote]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEoTQB7h3NQ[/youtube][/quote]
Nice argument mason
Try to actually play the class and read what I said again.
It didn't need a close range nerf, if anything it needed a long range nerf, like damage fall off on distance like rockets, less stickies, damage nerf when more than 1 demo per team. Close range is actually the biggest weakness of the class, and you are taking one of the demo most reliable weapons (albeit still very unreliable) at close range and nerfing it even more.
You remember when you feel helpless 1v1ing a decent scout, now it will be even worse. There's no other class so reliant on other classes for selfdefense as the demo. Its even worse now.[/quote]
Thats the point, are you guys trolling?
Scouts are going to be rewarded more heavily for catching demos with their pants down, AS IT SHOULD BE, and demos are going to have to mentally play more defensive with pre-set sticky traps and be more conservative overall with their ammo and cautious with their dets.
Old case: Scout facerushes you, you throw two stickies on the ground, if the scout semi-dodges he probably still dies from 60-70 splash damage
New case: Scout facerushes you, you throw a sticky on the ground, det, and switch to pipes.
Advanced new case: Demomans not retarded, has 2 stickies on a corner near himself, dets the scout who flanked him, rewarding him for playing on the scouts aggression.
You people need to adjust. The problem was that a demo spamming 8 stickies into a crowd during a mid fight did splash damage to 2-3 people at a time with easier execution than a rocket.
Anyone saying 'up the class limit' clearly hasnt thought about that at all... try pushing and last point without having to pop uber immediately through every chokepoint due to there being multiple traps set up, or going to mid with 1 demo spamming your doorway with another spamming your low ground on badlands mid.
Also, who are you guys to say Valve abandoned us for 7 years?
This game has come a long way since 2007, if there was ever a problem for an invite player or competitive TF2 in general, Robin always helped us. To say Valve forgot about competitive TF2 or ignored it is a lie.
This one patch just changed the game significantly, and if you ask me, this game needed to be changed significantly.
This shit opens up the door for a lot of teams to catch up to the invite mentality and figure out the balance mechanics and what strats may and may not be viable.
It's a shame carnage quit though, this patch is going to be the patch for scouts. 8)[/quote]
anywhere the demo stands he is caught with his pants down right now, might as well stay in spawn room if we're applying your flawed logic.
Saltysally1anywhere the demo stands he is caught with his pants down right now, might as well stay in spawn room if we're applying your flawed logic.
LOL, you missed my last post
flamesomeone please explain to me without sounding like an incompetent high school freshman how this "makes 6s fucking awful"
[quote=Saltysally1]
anywhere the demo stands he is caught with his pants down right now, might as well stay in spawn room if we're applying your flawed logic.[/quote]
LOL, you missed my last post
[quote=flame]someone please explain to me without sounding like an incompetent high school freshman how this "makes 6s fucking awful"[/quote]
cosamustardoverlordcosamustardoverlordalso some people in this thread are being really shortsighted and selfish because it makes their classes (scout and pocket mainly) much more powerful
meanwhile this update makes 6s and hl fuckin awful
Why would 6v6/hl adopt a plugin to change the way the weapon works from literally anything that isnt a scrim/match server?
random crits
random spread
ever heard of those?
tf_weapon_criticals "0" and tf_damage_disablespread "1 are commands. "tf_sticky_fulldamage" doesn't exist.
why does it matter? are you saying we should be beholden to things being official valve decisions? last I checked we all used custom huds and fps configs, played custom maps, used custom spectator plugins, played pugs on irc and tf2center.com, and played in a league not run by valve
isn't it obvious that valve doesn't give a fuck about comp tf2 and we should start pulling away as soon as possible?
[quote=cosa][quote=mustardoverlord][quote=cosa][quote=mustardoverlord]also some people in this thread are being really shortsighted and selfish because it makes their classes (scout and pocket mainly) much more powerful
meanwhile this update makes 6s and hl fuckin awful[/quote]
Why would 6v6/hl adopt a plugin to change the way the weapon works from literally anything that isnt a scrim/match server?[/quote]
random crits
random spread
ever heard of those?[/quote]
tf_weapon_criticals "0" and tf_damage_disablespread "1 are commands. "tf_sticky_fulldamage" doesn't exist.[/quote]
why does it matter? are you saying we should be beholden to things being official valve decisions? last I checked we all used custom huds and fps configs, played custom maps, used custom spectator plugins, played pugs on irc and tf2center.com, and played in a league not run by valve
isn't it obvious that valve doesn't give a fuck about comp tf2 and we should start pulling away as soon as possible?
PheeshImagine demoman was like it is now since the beginning and the meta game developed for 7 years around it...and then valve released a patch to remove the damage rampup. What would the reaction be? People would be professing the end of comp tf2 as demoman would begin dominating exchanges just putting out stupid amounts of damage...even after people adjusted.
And don't even look at outrage in pubs which would be a joke as demoman can single handedly turn a 20 person pub game.
Change is hard to deal with and many will just keep trying to play the same way they were, and it won't work. Others will adapt and look back in a year and realize this is a good thing and that it actually will end up giving the game more life. Right now the sentiment is that valve is fucking with what you like and are accustomed to, which is understandable. Give it a real chance though, it's a blessing in disguise.
if this damage ramp up thing was here from the beginning i don't think it would be part of the standard lineup in sixes and i think demo would be a little more roamy in highlander and the soldier would take the place in the way we play around a demo right now.
[quote=Pheesh]Imagine demoman was like it is now since the beginning and the meta game developed for 7 years around it...and then valve released a patch to remove the damage rampup. What would the reaction be? People would be professing the end of comp tf2 as demoman would begin dominating exchanges just putting out stupid amounts of damage...even after people adjusted.
And don't even look at outrage in pubs which would be a joke as demoman can single handedly turn a 20 person pub game.
Change is hard to deal with and many will just keep trying to play the same way they were, and it won't work. Others will adapt and look back in a year and realize this is a good thing and that it actually will end up giving the game more life. Right now the sentiment is that valve is fucking with what you like and are accustomed to, which is understandable. Give it a real chance though, it's a blessing in disguise.[/quote]
if this damage ramp up thing was here from the beginning i don't think it would be part of the standard lineup in sixes and i think demo would be a little more roamy in highlander and the soldier would take the place in the way we play around a demo right now.
mustardoverlordwhy does it matter? are you saying we should be beholden to things being official valve decisions? last I checked we all used custom huds and fps configs, played custom maps, used custom spectator plugins, played pugs on irc and tf2center.com, and played in a league not run by valve
isn't it obvious that valve doesn't give a fuck about comp tf2 and we should start pulling away as soon as possible?
I really can't fathom the level of dumb that is this comment.
[quote=mustardoverlord]
why does it matter? are you saying we should be beholden to things being official valve decisions? last I checked we all used custom huds and fps configs, played custom maps, used custom spectator plugins, played pugs on irc and tf2center.com, and played in a league not run by valve
isn't it obvious that valve doesn't give a fuck about comp tf2 and we should start pulling away as soon as possible?[/quote]
I really can't fathom the level of dumb that is this comment.
mustardoverlordisn't it obvious that valve doesn't give a fuck about comp tf2 and we should start pulling away as soon as possible?
.. LOL
[quote=mustardoverlord]isn't it obvious that valve doesn't give a fuck about comp tf2 and we should start pulling away as soon as possible?[/quote]
.. LOL
flamemustardoverlordwhy does it matter? are you saying we should be beholden to things being official valve decisions? last I checked we all used custom huds and fps configs, played custom maps, used custom spectator plugins, played pugs on irc and tf2center.com, and played in a league not run by valve
isn't it obvious that valve doesn't give a fuck about comp tf2 and we should start pulling away as soon as possible?
I really can't fathom the level of dumb that is this comment.
mustard's just upset he might actually somehow now be worse at demo than he was before
[quote=flame][quote=mustardoverlord]
why does it matter? are you saying we should be beholden to things being official valve decisions? last I checked we all used custom huds and fps configs, played custom maps, used custom spectator plugins, played pugs on irc and tf2center.com, and played in a league not run by valve
isn't it obvious that valve doesn't give a fuck about comp tf2 and we should start pulling away as soon as possible?[/quote]
I really can't fathom the level of dumb that is this comment.[/quote]
mustard's just upset he might actually somehow now be worse at demo than he was before
Can we use the rock paper scissors taunt to see who picks first in pugs now?
Can we use the rock paper scissors taunt to see who picks first in pugs now?
Also - I realise its been pointed out already, but I pretty much just read the entirety of this thread in one sitting and the majority of negative comments about this change stem to an argument of "but its going to be harder now!" or "but demo is already weak against scouts".
I'm not going to argue that this patch is bringing demo back to their "intended purpose" of defensive play because thats a crap statement too - the reality is that this change is trying to bring the class (and specifically the sticky launcher) in line with the capabilities of its surrounding classes. Sure, its going to be harder to deal as much damage as demo following the change - but it was harder to rocket jump as many times when they nerfed the gunboats. The role of demo is going to evolve, and honestly I think that people should be more excited about that... as its these changes and evolutions that keeps the game both fresh and competitive. Aren't you guys bored of the way the game is played currently? Don't you get frustrated when you find yourself relying on your demo so much that it paralyses you and is effective a crutch to good play? Maybe its just that we place less emphasis on our demo than other teams, but I seriously feel that this is only going to encourage a faster and more exciting meta for tf2. There are going to be a lot more situations where fighting is a viable choice, and also (contrary to popular belief) I think this is actually going to open up the play a lot more - as teams will be less concerned about playing slow and relying on demos defensive capabilities to choke the game up, the flank play will be increasingly frequent and coordinated as the old suicide around chokes becomes more of the dice roll that it should be.
I think those of you that are arguing so strongly against this change should ask yourself what it is you play tf2 for. Do you play because you love the game? Do you want whats best for the competitive playstyle, or would you rather continue in your comfort zone topping the damage metres and hiding from potentially excellent changes?
Maybe it'll suck... but you may as well get excited about playing the best game you can until it changes. I really hope it (or something like it) sticks around though.
Also - I realise its been pointed out already, but I pretty much just read the entirety of this thread in one sitting and the majority of negative comments about this change stem to an argument of "but its going to be harder now!" or "but demo is already weak against scouts".
I'm not going to argue that this patch is bringing demo back to their "intended purpose" of defensive play because thats a crap statement too - the reality is that this change is trying to bring the class (and specifically the sticky launcher) in line with the capabilities of its surrounding classes. Sure, its going to be harder to deal as much damage as demo following the change - but it was harder to rocket jump as many times when they nerfed the gunboats. The role of demo is going to evolve, and honestly I think that people should be more excited about that... as its these changes and evolutions that keeps the game both fresh and competitive. Aren't you guys bored of the way the game is played currently? Don't you get frustrated when you find yourself relying on your demo so much that it paralyses you and is effective a crutch to good play? Maybe its just that we place less emphasis on our demo than other teams, but I seriously feel that this is only going to encourage a faster and more exciting meta for tf2. There are going to be a lot more situations where fighting is a viable choice, and also (contrary to popular belief) I think this is actually going to open up the play a lot more - as teams will be less concerned about playing slow and relying on demos defensive capabilities to choke the game up, the flank play will be increasingly frequent and coordinated as the old suicide around chokes becomes more of the dice roll that it should be.
I think those of you that are arguing so strongly against this change should ask yourself what it is you play tf2 for. Do you play because you love the game? Do you want whats best for the competitive playstyle, or would you rather continue in your comfort zone topping the damage metres and hiding from potentially excellent changes?
Maybe it'll suck... but you may as well get excited about playing the best game you can until it changes. I really hope it (or something like it) sticks around though.
mustardoverlordalso some people in this thread are being really shortsighted and selfish because it makes their classes (scout and pocket mainly) much more powerful
you're right, half of the people playing tf2 should be miserable
[quote=mustardoverlord]also some people in this thread are being really shortsighted and selfish because it makes their classes (scout and pocket mainly) much more powerful
[/quote]
you're right, half of the people playing tf2 should be miserable
The moral of the story is that this update brings demo down to a level similar of importance to a scout or soldier. Prior to this update, if you got a pick on a scout/soldier it was still very hard to push into the other team, but if you got the demo, your demo could walk in and absolutely crush everything with his massive damage advantage. Now, if your demo dies, the other team's demo cannot just massacre your team because your demo made a slight mistake and got picked. I think this is more forgiving for demos and will make them a more fun class to play because they are slightly less valuable, allowing for more risk / reward plays than conservative spam over objects.
The moral of the story is that this update brings demo down to a level similar of importance to a scout or soldier. Prior to this update, if you got a pick on a scout/soldier it was still very hard to push into the other team, but if you got the demo, your demo could walk in and absolutely crush everything with his massive damage advantage. Now, if your demo dies, the other team's demo cannot just massacre your team because your demo made a slight mistake and got picked. I think this is more forgiving for demos and will make them a more fun class to play because they are slightly less valuable, allowing for more risk / reward plays than conservative spam over objects.
You people are beyond shortsighted if you think this shit makes the game worse.
1. Midfights come down to aim and positioning more than effective spam
2. Choke holds are riskier for demos, more reliant on soldiers.
3. Scouts will play the same game they always have, with more aggression being possible due to less damage done from range.
4. Prioritizing demomen during ubers will become a thing of the past.
5. That opens up the field for soldiers to open up the game as the highlight reel players.
6. Demomen will have to play more defensively when alone
7. Missing dets is more heavily punished
8. Missing pipes is more heavily punished
9. Ubers are less stressful for medics due to less spam damage from stickies.
10. Kritz soldiers will be better off
11. Medics wont be so scared to walk through hallways vs demomen
12. You cant win mid on granary or badlands by yourself anymore just because of your speed
13. Your roaming soldiers may need to play a little more defensively to keep your demoman secure, putting more pressure to gank on the scout pair
Like the game is hugely changed.
The biggest change though is overall the amount of health on everyone in drawn out teamfights will be higher than normal, meaning missing 3 rockets or 2 scatters is worse, because that sticky they ate isnt as good.
This will become the most aim-reliant this game has ever been, just from a change so 'small.'
Please, I beg you to argue with me, and tell me how this ruins the game in any way, or why demo isn't viable anymore.
Please.
You people are beyond shortsighted if you think this shit makes the game worse.
1. Midfights come down to aim and positioning more than effective spam
2. Choke holds are riskier for demos, more reliant on soldiers.
3. Scouts will play the same game they always have, with more aggression being possible due to less damage done from range.
4. Prioritizing demomen during ubers will become a thing of the past.
5. That opens up the field for soldiers to open up the game as the highlight reel players.
6. Demomen will have to play more defensively when alone
7. Missing dets is more heavily punished
8. Missing pipes is more heavily punished
9. Ubers are less stressful for medics due to less spam damage from stickies.
10. Kritz soldiers will be better off
11. Medics wont be so scared to walk through hallways vs demomen
12. You cant win mid on granary or badlands by yourself anymore just because of your speed
13. Your roaming soldiers may need to play a little more defensively to keep your demoman secure, putting more pressure to gank on the scout pair
Like the game is hugely changed.
The biggest change though is overall the amount of health on everyone in drawn out teamfights will be higher than normal, meaning missing 3 rockets or 2 scatters is worse, because that sticky they ate isnt as good.
This will become the most aim-reliant this game has ever been, just from a change so 'small.'
Please, I beg you to argue with me, and tell me how this ruins the game in any way, or why demo isn't viable anymore.
Please.
They still need to revert the sticky damage somewhat to make kritz reliable enough to risk using again. I don't think many people in this thread are completely against the nerf, but rather the huge extent that demo was nerfed.
They still need to revert the sticky damage somewhat to make kritz reliable enough to risk using again. I don't think many people in this thread are completely against the nerf, but rather the huge extent that demo was nerfed.
flamelease, I beg you to argue with me, and tell me how this ruins the game in any way, or why demo isn't viable anymore.
IMO the biggest problem with the update is that kritz may see significantly less use.
I'm not sure kritz soldiers is the solution because generally if the other team has figured out you are running kritz, they're going to be too far back for kritz to be effective. they'll pull back and then come back in with uber.
I haven't played this situation yet so I'm not sure if kritz sniping the med is actually impacted that much, just the biggest problem I foresee being possible at this point
[quote=flame]lease, I beg you to argue with me, and tell me how this ruins the game in any way, or why demo isn't viable anymore.
[/quote]
IMO the biggest problem with the update is that kritz may see significantly less use.
I'm not sure kritz soldiers is the solution because generally if the other team has figured out you are running kritz, they're going to be too far back for kritz to be effective. they'll pull back and then come back in with uber.
I haven't played this situation yet so I'm not sure if kritz sniping the med is actually impacted that much, just the biggest problem I foresee being possible at this point
flameYou people are beyond shortsighted if you think this shit makes the game worse.
1. Midfights come down to aim and positioning more than effective spam
2. Choke holds are riskier for demos, more reliant on soldiers.
3. Scouts will play the same game they always have, with more aggression being possible due to less damage done from range.
4. Prioritizing demomen during ubers will become a thing of the past.
5. That opens up the field for soldiers to open up the game as the highlight reel players.
6. Demomen will have to play more defensively when alone
7. Missing dets is more heavily punished
8. Missing pipes is more heavily punished
9. Ubers are less stressful for medics due to less spam damage from stickies.
10. Kritz soldiers will be better off
11. Medics wont be so scared to walk through hallways vs demomen
12. You cant win mid on granary or badlands by yourself anymore just because of your speed
13. Your roaming soldiers may need to play a little more defensively to keep your demoman secure, putting more pressure to gank on the scout pair
Like the game is hugely changed.
The biggest change though is overall the amount of health on everyone in drawn out teamfights will be higher than normal, meaning missing 3 rockets or 2 scatters is worse, because that sticky they ate isnt as good.
This will become the most aim-reliant this game has ever been, just from a change so 'small.'
Please, I beg you to argue with me, and tell me how this ruins the game in any way, or why demo isn't viable anymore.
Please.
dude you're saying what some of us have been arguing this whole time, now demo is better off going for risky plays like a roamer and the roamer will be more passive. You flip your arguments around to suit your need to be correct or something it's really frustrating trying to follow your statements.
[quote=flame]You people are beyond shortsighted if you think this shit makes the game worse.
1. Midfights come down to aim and positioning more than effective spam
2. Choke holds are riskier for demos, more reliant on soldiers.
3. Scouts will play the same game they always have, with more aggression being possible due to less damage done from range.
4. Prioritizing demomen during ubers will become a thing of the past.
5. That opens up the field for soldiers to open up the game as the highlight reel players.
6. Demomen will have to play more defensively when alone
7. Missing dets is more heavily punished
8. Missing pipes is more heavily punished
9. Ubers are less stressful for medics due to less spam damage from stickies.
10. Kritz soldiers will be better off
11. Medics wont be so scared to walk through hallways vs demomen
12. You cant win mid on granary or badlands by yourself anymore just because of your speed
13. Your roaming soldiers may need to play a little more defensively to keep your demoman secure, putting more pressure to gank on the scout pair
Like the game is hugely changed.
The biggest change though is overall the amount of health on everyone in drawn out teamfights will be higher than normal, meaning missing 3 rockets or 2 scatters is worse, because that sticky they ate isnt as good.
This will become the most aim-reliant this game has ever been, just from a change so 'small.'
Please, I beg you to argue with me, and tell me how this ruins the game in any way, or why demo isn't viable anymore.
Please.[/quote]
dude you're saying what some of us have been arguing this whole time, now demo is better off going for risky plays like a roamer and the roamer will be more passive. You flip your arguments around to suit your need to be correct or something it's really frustrating trying to follow your statements.
mustardoverlordcosamustardoverlordcosamustardoverlordalso some people in this thread are being really shortsighted and selfish because it makes their classes (scout and pocket mainly) much more powerful
meanwhile this update makes 6s and hl fuckin awful
Why would 6v6/hl adopt a plugin to change the way the weapon works from literally anything that isnt a scrim/match server?
random crits
random spread
ever heard of those?
tf_weapon_criticals "0" and tf_damage_disablespread "1 are commands. "tf_sticky_fulldamage" doesn't exist.
why does it matter? are you saying we should be beholden to things being official valve decisions? last I checked we all used custom huds and fps configs, played custom maps, used custom spectator plugins, played pugs on irc and tf2center.com, and played in a league not run by valve
isn't it obvious that valve doesn't give a fuck about comp tf2 and we should start pulling away as soon as possible?
I agree that they don't care and they never have. However Custom huds fps configs and anything else you use to customize your game(viewmodel visibility/crosshairs)use things valve allowed us to customize using commands/tools that they added with the intent of allowing players to use what they like. You are however asking for a plugin which makes a weapon behave differently in any server not using the plugin which is an awful idea.
Whos to say they're done changing stickies or that they aren't about to change various weapons/classes?
[quote=mustardoverlord][quote=cosa][quote=mustardoverlord][quote=cosa][quote=mustardoverlord]also some people in this thread are being really shortsighted and selfish because it makes their classes (scout and pocket mainly) much more powerful
meanwhile this update makes 6s and hl fuckin awful[/quote]
Why would 6v6/hl adopt a plugin to change the way the weapon works from literally anything that isnt a scrim/match server?[/quote]
random crits
random spread
ever heard of those?[/quote]
tf_weapon_criticals "0" and tf_damage_disablespread "1 are commands. "tf_sticky_fulldamage" doesn't exist.[/quote]
why does it matter? are you saying we should be beholden to things being official valve decisions? last I checked we all used custom huds and fps configs, played custom maps, used custom spectator plugins, played pugs on irc and tf2center.com, and played in a league not run by valve
isn't it obvious that valve doesn't give a fuck about comp tf2 and we should start pulling away as soon as possible?[/quote]
I agree that they don't care and they never have. However Custom huds fps configs and anything else you use to customize your game(viewmodel visibility/crosshairs)use things valve allowed us to customize using commands/tools that they added with the intent of allowing players to use what they like. You are however asking for a plugin which makes a weapon behave differently in any server not using the plugin which is an awful idea.
Whos to say they're done changing stickies or that they aren't about to change various weapons/classes?
sky_They still need to revert the sticky damage somewhat to make kritz reliable enough to risk using again. I don't think many people in this thread are completely against the nerf, but rather the huge extent that demo was nerfed.
You realize the meta has shifted before right. Before b4nny carried tyrone to an ESEA Championship, most medics were playing off their soldiers a lot more.
Every team plays to its strengths. If your demoman can hit pipes, you uber your demoman. If your soldier has good shotgun aim and ammo management, you uber your soldier, and if you're pyourr in season 5 you blow your ubers letting enigma and carnage meatshot everything.
This game evolves every year.
Why should demo kritz surprise be an auto win? Are you serious? That's an argument? I really don't understand.
[quote=sky_]They still need to revert the sticky damage somewhat to make kritz reliable enough to risk using again. I don't think many people in this thread are completely against the nerf, but rather the huge extent that demo was nerfed.[/quote]
You realize the meta has shifted before right. Before b4nny carried tyrone to an ESEA Championship, most medics were playing off their soldiers a lot more.
Every team plays to its strengths. If your demoman can hit pipes, you uber your demoman. If your soldier has good shotgun aim and ammo management, you uber your soldier, and if you're pyourr in season 5 you blow your ubers letting enigma and carnage meatshot everything.
This game evolves every year.
Why should demo kritz surprise be an auto win? Are you serious? That's an argument? I really don't understand.
The biggest issue that i am finding is that higher division players, players that have an impact in the community are not acting responsively and are just flinging shit around. Casters are talking beyond logic and making people that watch the stream to see competitive TF2 question what is going on. I am honestly quite annoyed that people are acting as if it's the fucking end of the world, when it's literally the same game, but the demo can't be as caught out as before.
People are talking about Promods, Cvars and what not, but that will create even more distance between Public and Competitive. I also want to see how that would afect LAN and competitions between different Leagues and different Regions. It's really such a short sighted idea... There are more leagues than just ETF2L, and if ETF2L does implement the new Cvar that Annakin created (tf_sticky_fulldamage 1) then it will affect how players prepare for different leagues, or different game modes (6s, Highlander).
Accepting a plugin, a promod or even a cvar is opening a can of worms, people will start asking for other stuff to be changed and or removed. Weapons made in the future might not be accepted. TF2 is about team play, yet a change to a weapon of one class is making people talk about the end of competitive play. Get a grip.
It's honestly great to see that some higher level players in both America and Australia are taking it cool and moving on, it's an evolution, and it might not even be a permanent change, Valve could possibly reverse.
Yet.. we see Epsilon playing a pcw without a demoman whatsoever and instead playing with a heavy. With attitudes like that, of course people will be flinging shit and be scared the meta is gonna change.
I might be a scrub, and my insight might come from someone that plays around the div 4 level, but as it is, as long as certain people (ahum...) continue acting like only and only Prem level insights are welcome then they will be able to pull as much shit as they want, and we have seen the results of that (ESL, others).
The biggest issue that i am finding is that higher division players, players that have an impact in the community are not acting responsively and are just flinging shit around. Casters are talking beyond logic and making people that watch the stream to see competitive TF2 question what is going on. I am honestly quite annoyed that people are acting as if it's the fucking end of the world, when it's literally the same game, but the demo can't be as caught out as before.
People are talking about Promods, Cvars and what not, but that will create even more distance between Public and Competitive. I also want to see how that would afect LAN and competitions between different Leagues and different Regions. It's really such a short sighted idea... There are more leagues than just ETF2L, and if ETF2L does implement the new Cvar that Annakin created (tf_sticky_fulldamage 1) then it will affect how players prepare for different leagues, or different game modes (6s, Highlander).
Accepting a plugin, a promod or even a cvar is opening a can of worms, people will start asking for other stuff to be changed and or removed. Weapons made in the future might not be accepted. TF2 is about team play, yet a change to a weapon of one class is making people talk about the end of competitive play. Get a grip.
It's honestly great to see that some higher level players in both America and Australia are taking it cool and moving on, it's an evolution, and it might not even be a permanent change, Valve could possibly reverse.
Yet.. we see Epsilon playing a pcw without a demoman whatsoever and instead playing with a heavy. With attitudes like that, of course people will be flinging shit and be scared the meta is gonna change.
I might be a scrub, and my insight might come from someone that plays around the div 4 level, but as it is, as long as certain people (ahum...) continue acting like only and only Prem level insights are welcome then they will be able to pull as much shit as they want, and we have seen the results of that (ESL, others).
I can't speak for UGC/ESEA/CEVO obviously, but things like a promod (obviously kills competitive tf2) and even a command which reverts the change will not be condoned and explicitly disallowed in ETF2L.
Moving competitive TF2 further away from public TF2 with a ProMod or a mechanic as big as sticky rampup will slowly remove any significant number of new players joining competitive TF2. The only viable league to use a ProMod, or a plugin to revert the change would be ESEA since they are not aimed towards new players. However if they would run such a plugin they would completely alienate themselves from all other TF2 leagues. It could work for ESEA, but it's risky in my opinion.
Basically, using a plugin to revert the change or a ProMod is really stupid. We need to go along with what Valve has chosen and embrace it with open arms.
I can't speak for UGC/ESEA/CEVO obviously, but things like a promod (obviously kills competitive tf2) and even a command which reverts the change will not be condoned and explicitly disallowed in ETF2L.
Moving competitive TF2 further away from public TF2 with a ProMod or a mechanic as big as sticky rampup will slowly remove any significant number of new players joining competitive TF2. The only viable league to use a ProMod, or a plugin to revert the change would be ESEA since they are not aimed towards new players. However if they would run such a plugin they would completely alienate themselves from all other TF2 leagues. It could work for ESEA, but it's risky in my opinion.
Basically, using a plugin to revert the change or a ProMod is really stupid. We need to go along with what Valve has chosen and embrace it with open arms.
flameWhy should demo kritz surprise be an auto win? Are you serious? That's an argument? I really don't understand.
running kritz can tend to be somewhat high risk/high reward. If you increase the risk (less likely to get med before he gets uber), you'll see it less. And I think most people agree that kritz is an exciting part of the metagame.
Again, I'm still not sure how much this update actually affected running kritz.
[quote=flame]
Why should demo kritz surprise be an auto win? Are you serious? That's an argument? I really don't understand.[/quote] running kritz can tend to be somewhat high risk/high reward. If you increase the risk (less likely to get med before he gets uber), you'll see it less. And I think most people agree that kritz is an exciting part of the metagame.
Again, I'm still not sure how much this update actually affected running kritz.
flameWhy should demo kritz surprise be an auto win? Are you serious? That's an argument? I really don't understand.
How is it an autowin? It was high risk, high reward. Your demo could still whiff stickies, or they built their uber while you didn't, or their med is positioned well enough to get out.
Right now there's just no reason to use kritz because it's high risk low reward.
[quote=flame]Why should demo kritz surprise be an auto win? Are you serious? That's an argument? I really don't understand.[/quote]
How is it an autowin? It was high risk, high reward. Your demo could still whiff stickies, or they built their uber while you didn't, or their med is positioned well enough to get out.
Right now there's just no reason to use kritz because it's high risk low reward.