Thats the point, are you guys trolling?

Scouts are going to be rewarded more heavily for catching demos with their pants down, AS IT SHOULD BE, and demos are going to have to mentally play more defensive with pre-set sticky traps and be more conservative overall with their ammo and cautious with their dets.

Old case: Scout facerushes you, you throw two stickies on the ground, if the scout semi-dodges he probably still dies from 60-70 splash damage

New case: Scout facerushes you, you throw a sticky on the ground, det, and switch to pipes.

Advanced new case: Demomans not retarded, has 2 stickies on a corner near himself, dets the scout who flanked him, rewarding him for playing on the scouts aggression.

You people need to adjust. The problem was that a demo spamming 8 stickies into a crowd during a mid fight did splash damage to 2-3 people at a time with easier execution than a rocket.

Anyone saying 'up the class limit' clearly hasnt thought about that at all... try pushing and last point without having to pop uber immediately through every chokepoint due to there being multiple traps set up, or going to mid with 1 demo spamming your doorway with another spamming your low ground on badlands mid.

Also, who are you guys to say Valve abandoned us for 7 years?

This game has come a long way since 2007, if there was ever a problem for an invite player or competitive TF2 in general, Robin always helped us. To say Valve forgot about competitive TF2 or ignored it is a lie.

This one patch just changed the game significantly, and if you ask me, this game needed to be changed significantly.

This shit opens up the door for a lot of teams to catch up to the invite mentality and figure out the balance mechanics and what strats may and may not be viable.

It's a shame carnage quit though, this patch is going to be the patch for scouts. 8)

These are some way I thought of the demo and heavy nerf. With testing they might change but theoretically they are as follows;

Considering the nerf, sticky traps will be more about placement and being actual traps and less about crowd control and spam.

Holding choke points now will rely on the detonation timing of a demo. Let's say he dets on an over-extending scout, now the damage of other teammates watching point will be more relevant for those 2 seconds before the demo will put out decent damage.

Demo pipe aim will be penalized more so now if it isn't well enough to connect.

Mid fights will leave a bit more room for scouts which will spread the responsibility to defending territorial control to soldiers.

With heavy nerf, jumping soldiers will have more room to bomb medic which will need more attention from other classes. This is more highlander-centric and 6s last defense.

Defending with heavy becomes less viable in smaller last points like badlands. In bigger last points like granary it'll be a bit easier. Switching to pyro then might become more common.

My overall opinion, just because a sticky does even 80% less damage, why would I even wanna walk through that knowing he may have 7 other stickies to go?

Since when are pipes reliable? Any projectile weapon is unreliable, even more at close range and even then you take self damage from it. You need a hitscan weapon of some sort or a no self dmg weapon to have some realiable close range defense mechanism. And no, melee is not reliable either.

Maybe if the damage ramp up nerf included self damage, so it promoted a more agressive playstyle altogether it would actually be a logic balance, not like this

Demo has been fine for 7 years, i've been maining it for 2 years and all was fine and good and now they come with this bullshit?

In years of competitive TF2 there has never been a talk about demoman being OP in close range, he doesn't even have a close range weapon...

I can follow your guys rationale being a promode-like plugin/mod hurting the scene but look at COD4, the mod made the game playable competitively and if we make our amazing (fps improvements, more options, etc.) I cant really see why it's such a bad thing.

Why exactly do we need to bend over and take this change? It's obviously gonna make demos much more underpowered, you can no longer punish a player/players who are overextended quickly, if a scout jumps you you are pretty much dead, poping kritz trough a choke is no longer an option.

Yes it's gonna change the meta and players will eventually adapt but why? Because Valve thought so?

Holy shit u mad? Acting like a 12 year old redbull junkie wont contribute nothing either...

I think you're missing something...demoman is not supposed to be strong at close range. That's deliberately a weakness of the class as it is one of (if not the) the strongest mid and long range classes.

Not saying I like the change but your argument is not a good one

Demoman was already weak in close range, now it cant do nothing.

hey look demo isnt cancer anymore its time to come back

Pipes? If you're buffed and near your medic, the self damage won't matter. If you need to get multiple close range kills and aren't near your medic, you're probably over extended or out of position.

Or if you're alone with your medic and therefore aren't being helped by your pocket or a scout...you're also out of position.

It's their game annd we can't do anything about it but adapt, maybe they'll change it, maybe they won't, point is: Don't bitch about the inevitable.

When you practice. I'm sorry that you don't have a 100% effective solution for killing +fwding scouts now, but this update doesn't change the fact that pipes still do a shitload of damage.

1st take 1 look at the number of people who play CoD4 promod competitively, and then look at TF2 competitive, we have like 10x their numbers with 6s alone.

2nd You thought demos were underpowered that's possibly the biggest bullshit I've ever heard in TF2.

I'm still not ok with this

Honestly I just hope that the tide turner doesn't get banned. Demoknight was fun and pretty effective before the killed charge turning, but not many actually did it for multiple reasons. Some felt they were abusing an unintended mechanic, they didn't want to play with a controller/install vjoy etc. I've played on a team multiple times with a friend who plays demoknight with a controller, and he played it on my 6s team. You could still do effective rollouts with it and the loose cannon, you had decent area denial with it, and if you could reliably airbust with it, scouts could be fought. Airburst does about 60 damage if you hit it, and if you hit a double donk the scout probably died, and if you get the timing of the cannon down they're extremely reliable at close range, while not taking self damage. Not having stickies required both our soldiers to man up a bit and take over for the damage spam aspect. Demoknight could spearhead pushes and go for entry picks with the charge, and can often get med picks reliably. He was actually still top-damaging on the team with only the loose cannon spam and crit melees. He got 300-350 dpm reliably without sticks. Demoknight is just overall a fun subclass that is just now more viable in 6s because of the sticky nerf.

Edit: http://sizzlingstats.com/stats/181567 Demoknight doesng 427 dpm on snakewater.

why is everyone talking about close range fights and 1v1s?
getting into a lot of those situations is poor play

what we should really be talking about is holding chokepoints and aggressive spam

it'll be much harder to hold a team out of a chokepoint now as once the initial stickies are destroyed/knocked away all a demo has left is continual spam which now does far less damage. whether this is a good thing or a bad thing isnt 100% but i'd definitely speculate that it's bad. i can just imagine a huge clusterfuck all the time if demos cant keep people out of chokepoints. the good maps currently dont let people through chokepoints easily and no-one complains about that (as far as i can tell).
some maps are definitely too chokey but in my eyes the solution to this is with the map itself rather than the sticky launcher.

the demo is also really important in non-uber pushes when he suddenly charges forwards doing a huge amount of damage at the right time. numlocked was really good at knowing when to do this and it was a key factor in epsilon's success and aggressiveness. imagine trying to non-uber push into a heavy without sticky damage, it would be over before it had begun. and i think the fact that demo cant hold chokes reliably coupled with the fact the heavy cant be damaged as easily will mean heavy becomes more viable. again, just speculation.

i've not played scrims with these changes yet and i'll reserve judgement until i do - it just sucks that it came out in the middle of a season and so close to lan.

Its not reliable, even if you practice, you can hit 80% of them and its still not reliable. Its a projectile weapon, that makes it prediction based, thus, not reliable.

A reliable weapon is a hitscan weapon or similar, you aim for a place and you hit that place 100% of the time, no exceptions, you dont have to predict anything and your success is not dependent on the will or movement of the person you are trying to hit, because if you are aiming for him you will hit him 100% of the time, because it's not prediction based.

You can have godly pipe aim, it still doesn't make pipes a reliable self defense weapon.

you just gotta 2 pipe every scout who tries to kill you, its easy

you just have to choose to never miss again

this is pretty much true of pipes at close range

Would've made a lot more sense for the update to be: Sticky Bombs do 15% less damage.

That way you can no longer kill a 125 HP class with a single sticky, the max damage you could do would be 117.

I'm pretty confident valve will change this though, it's sort of what happened with the quick fix before, they made a much to drastic change to the weapon and then found a middle ground between the original stats and the changed stats to make it a better rounded item.

6 stickies for demo and stock damage as were before or, as ma3laa said - 15% less damage, but 8 sticks. That's the way tf2 is gonna roll, i really do hope so.

I think this is how valve should have nerfed it. This makes WAAAAY more sense to me than the damage ramp up

You have to run the sticky launcher to mid because it's so good. Then, once mid is capped and you're holding 2, teams are more hesitant to push since they lack the offensive capability of before to push through the enemy defenses. Instead, since the sticky launcher can't be used offensively, it has to be used defensively. Therefore, we just sit there and stare at each other.

Now replace sticky launcher with quick-fix.

all those hours in endif paying off

I'd definitely wager when they were playtesting the parachute thingy with the demo they are like, "this is too OP with stickies", how do we fix it? Delay the det charge. I doubt they thought it through too much tbh. Whether this turns out good or bad, Ill reserve my judgement for a couple weeks. Last nights scrims were fine.

People beg for 2 years for a big update.

Valve Bring us an update.

Everyone rages because of the update.

Damn about time to main demoknight

okay the parachute and black box is fun as shit

Imagine demoman was like it is now since the beginning and the meta game developed for 7 years around it...and then valve released a patch to remove the damage rampup. What would the reaction be? People would be professing the end of comp tf2 as demoman would begin dominating exchanges just putting out stupid amounts of damage...even after people adjusted.
And don't even look at outrage in pubs which would be a joke as demoman can single handedly turn a 20 person pub game.

Change is hard to deal with and many will just keep trying to play the same way they were, and it won't work. Others will adapt and look back in a year and realize this is a good thing and that it actually will end up giving the game more life. Right now the sentiment is that valve is fucking with what you like and are accustomed to, which is understandable. Give it a real chance though, it's a blessing in disguise.

This.
It will be much more difficult now for Scouts to clean up easy kills on low-hp enemies in an aggresive non uber push. Pockets need to compensate for the huge amount of damage that is now missing from the demoman's aggresive sticky spam.
Not sure if this will work out though...

The update would've been fine without the fucking weird decision on how to nerf stickies. Some of the weps might even be (dare I say it)... viable?

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