I just find it sad that sixes are so against change and the CS community, the fucking COUNTER-STRIKE community, are embracing the changes and new weapons coming to CSGO with open arms.

Will do.

the new weapons are cool, the quickfix isn't

this isn't the greatest example, cs (completely different fps game) has been around for over a decade and i seriously doubt you have die hard beta/1.3/1.6 fans that are outraged by the changes in csgo, csgo has a lot of younger people playing and a lot of new players as well

thats like saying tfc vets are definitely angry about the current unlocks that are banned and allowed in comp tf2

also on that note, i played cs for a lonnnnnnnnng time and for the duration that the game has been out the only new unlocks we ever saw was famas, galil and a riot shield(banned instantly). tf2 gets flooded with new items all the time, no need to get bent out of shape here. whats to say that valve wont randomly introduce another medigun soon? you get my point

http://teamfortress.tv/forum/thread/8952-how-to-get-to-in-game-comp-lobbies
Yeah lets keep banning weapons, wouldn't want the game be to TOO interesting.

regardless of whether or not the quick-fix is balanced, this is a dumb decision. the quick fix is an unlock that completely changes the game and should only be definitively allowed or banned after extended testing and rational discussion, not as a knee-jerk reaction to a few bad games and an out-of-control hate train, and before people have had a chance to settle down and think it through.

in addtion, take a look at this thread : http://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/1ks0y9/esea_quick_fix_ruling_banned_for_next_season/

the way this is being handled is bad for the image of 6v6. Almost all bans that pubbers or HL players don't understand and frequently criticize ( gru, minisentry, wrangler ) can be explained as being the result of a consensus that the item is broken or makes the game less fun. that is not true for the quick-fix. This ban is giving a lot of fuel to the image of 6s players as arrogant, angry nerds who reject all change and that's really not something we need right now (or anytime, as a matter of fact)

Just because Valve re-balanced a weapon, it doesn't mean they did a good job of it. As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, they buffed Quick Fix a couple times before they actually resolved its main issue (no overheal) along with a couple other stupid changes. They need to revoke a couple of them (capping/medic overheal while ubered and no knockback) and it is feasible. In its current form, it's simply the Vita Saw scenario once again - if you don't use it then you're at a disadvantage.

One other thing - it's obvious that the Gullywash game between HRG and mixup was by far the worst stalemate-fest, but other matches/maps were also pretty bad (Granary, Metalworks last and some Process). It wasn't just waiting for things to happen which bored me, but it was also the 'uber vs. uber' fights which I could barely follow and just seemed like a complete mess most of the time. It felt like 2 teams just running into each other and hoping for the best. I've no doubt some may disagree on this, but as a spectator this is how I perceived it, and quite honestly it was like watching Soap DM in several cases. Some of it is down to underdeveloped meta on dealing with Quick Fix, but I'd much prefer it when there's a bigger risk/reward for Medics on when and how to use their ubers.

increases skill cap/mobility/variety for medic.

so lets ban it.

jesus christ. not even a poll. we vote on heavy/engy limit but now we're not going to allow a vote on an unlock?

Are you trying to say making a mockery of heal mechanics is balanced and fun?

Are you saying being forced to run the QF to mid our simply not contest mid is fun?

Are you saying the inevitable stalemates cause by the insanely fast build rate, easy survivability, and poor pushing uber is fun?

I am all for a new Medigun but this one is fundamentally flawed. If you want a medigun that will break stalemates instead of causing them you need to look at the kritz.

Generally if you want a medigun not to cause problems it should

A: make pushing viable where it shouldn't before
B: be worse at defending
C: build speed comes at the cost of vulnerability
D: not make using another medigun no longer viable
E: should not be easier then stock

Rock paper scissors mechanics are dumb. Items should never be countered by more items.

skill cap? lol

my post is not about balance. it is about the fact that the top players disagree vehemently on whether or not the quick fix is balanced and good for the game (lack of consensus). just look at the posts right above me, an invite player and a prem player arguing.

Can people please stop saying this. This is not true outside of Gullywash.

Mr. Slin: TF2's very own fair weather fan.

All it took was one gully last standoff (which totally never happened before) and suddenly a bunch of knee jerkers want the thing banned. At a time where Comp TF2 is crying out for innovation and fresh strats you guys want to ban one of the most interesting and tactically fun weapons in recent history.

Qfix is one of those weapons where its very rewarding if you can use it right, but ass punishingly terrible if you get it wrong. just because its new and it scares some people because they think it will kill 6v6. But its exactly that kind of narrow minded additude that kills 6v6 and makes it inaccessible to valve or anyone considering getting into comp tf2.

imagine walking into a game where you have a whole host of cool and interesting items. but as soon as you reach for one someone slaps your hand away saying "no, you cant use that one, you can only pick these" and he points to 4 or 5 perfectly functional, but rather boring options. and then when you ask why he says "Because we've been doing it like this for years"

is it any wonder the TF2 comp scene is so compounded with an attitude like that.

You are at a disadvantage at almost all midfights if you run anything to mid that isn't the QF against the QF. Not to say it is impossible but it is generally not a good idea to fight QF at mid with anything else.

The best way i have found to counter QF to mid is to turtle yard with kritz and laugh as they try to push though a chokepoint. This is neither fun to play nor watch. Unlocks should not be countered by more unlocks.

why?

Because you cant change unlocks on the fly and game become a dice roll trying to guess what the other team is running to mid.

well that's a bad reason. more item choices create a situation where one has to play around an inherent disadvantage, a certain kind of depth this game has lacked for years

1) People blaming Slin for this are just being silly. Just... stop. The people who are sharing their input on this decision are not the ones who would be influenced by a cast of the damn game. I would hope that people in this community would be smart enough to actually have scrimmed with the damn thing and made some decisions on their own. The only people who Slin would influence are those who haven't scrimmed or pugged at all in the past month, and frankly, I don't know of any people who fit that category who could make an informed decision on any weapon.

2) I don't like using the QF, as it simultaneously gives me more things to worry about but also makes me less important. That said, against (open) teams using the QF, I haven't felt pressured to bust it out myself. Midfights are definitely different against a QF but they're not unwinnable. It's led to a significant rise in my kritz usage but that just makes the game more fun and leads to my demo doing 500+ dpm all the time. I don't think it's OP, even when paired with a heavy. QF heavy can be annoying, but it's not impossible to deal with, or even that difficult. The trap I think the invite teams fell into was waiting far too long to switch mediguns. They were using the QF all the way into last and then switching after the stalemate started. If you know pushing last with QF sucks, why not switch long before then? Could be that I'm just too dumb to get the intricacies of the game at that level or something, though.

3) I don't really care that it's been banned, but it seems to set a precedent that we just don't want to change the way 6s is currently. This is the one weapon that has the biggest chance of fully changing the 'meta' (god, using that term makes me feel like a tool), and we're giving up on it after a month? That's fine, but nobody who wants the QF banned can then come around and say that the game is stale, because they're the ones who are making it that way.

4) I don't see how the QF increases the medic's skill cap at all, but whatever. Airstrafing is kind of easy guys, and with the QF you don't have to worry nearly as much about building uber, positioning, or self-preservation.

Hm. That is a good point and it keeps coming up.

What if in tournament mode the loadout system itself was different? If changing items was limited in some fashion, or at the start of a round it tells everyone who's using what items? Is there any way for Valve to fix this issue in particular without us having to resort to banning them?

Or is it just not worth making comp even more different from pubs

I wouldn't consider re-adding the silencer a brand new change that changes the meta. It's an old mechanic poorly re-hashed atm. The molly that was added in csgo was a new change. And it was so broken that people started banning it until it was nerfed into oblivion.

also valve has proven over and over that they don't know how to balance items.

This shouldn't even be happening in the first place. A weapon that gets added mid-season then gets banned without going through the proper process other than "I spoke to people, it would be banned". If that's true, then just go through the fucking process so that you can retain credibility. Or just don't add weapons half-way through the season to begin with to maintain credibility, either or. For fucks sake.. this isn't rocket surgery.

I am totally fine with killing deciding to ban the quick fix unilaterally

If any of this fucking shitstorm has taught us anything it's that 95% of this community is too fucking stupid to form their own opinions and can't even hold a serious discussion. TLR completely reversed his position on the quick fix despite not even playing this season and got +fragged both times.

People in this community will +frag anything a blue name says, and the fact that people still parrot "the meta is stale, robin is right" line is a joke. Blaming the gullywash (still a shit map) match for the QF is reasonable, but the rest of LAN was pretty shit to watch as well.

You weren't exactly the shining beacon of open arms and good communication, though. It's a delicate situation because if you do want to actually have a conversation then you can't just be so easily dismissive of other peoples' opinions (silver HL star or not). If you don't want an actual discussion then there's nothing to post in the first place. If you just want to shake the bee-hive a bit then post a rather confrontational thread and posts. Unfortunately, finding something in between where you get good discussion but only from people you want (by satisfying some criteria) is hoping for the impossible, at least on public forums like these. You'd need to find some fairly charitable people (which you weren't) in that you expect people who come to these boards to be invested in the game, probably watch streams etc. If you can't be charitable and look at the points people are making for their own sake (as opposed to whether they fit your criteria of having a legitimate opinion) then you're the one who can't "hold a serious discussion".

Also I don't understand how you could trust Killing to make this decision unilaterally. It just doesn't make sense to me. You're basically throwing your hands in the air and saying "fuck it just have one person decide".

so 3 of 4 team captains at LAN (out of 10 total invite teams this year) vote to ban QF AT LAN WHERE EVERYONE HAS STRONG FEELINGS ABOUT IT. ESEA fails to even ask the 4th TC about it and openly admit that there are only 2 invite teams out of the 10 this year that are currently still alive. ESEA then bans the QF.

instead of waiting to make the decision later in the offseason (are you now saying that the ban list is finalized for next year, with the only change being the addition of the QF?) -- ESEA has the vote of 1 of the 8 (or 10?) invite team captains on banning the Quick Fix for S15 & as a result the decision is now final that the QF is banned for next season.

to be clear, at this point ONE team in invite next year has voted to ban the Quick Fix...and the Quick Fix is now disallowed for S15 despite the fact that the other 7 or 9 teams in invite (all TBD at this point other than mix^?) have not even been asked? really?

...this is exactly the way UGC would have handled the situation. ask one plat/invite team their thoughts and then make a decision that impacts every single competitive TF2 team in their league.

i always thought ESEA was better than this.

I tried to write an objective explanation of how the QF was bad for the game after realizing that people were writing off the hate as simply bandwagoning on slin (forming a counter-bandwagon bandwagon) and had a ugc silver HL engy say I was wrong because the QF uber was counter-able by laying down a sticky carpet in the middle of a fight and waiting for a medic to walk over it. Nevermind that this guy had never played sixes with anyone that wasn't sub-open quality, (and that his postulation was not only wrong but irrelevant to my argument) if I want to wear a banner of even-handedness I have to entertain even the most inept opinions possible.

I didn't even argue that the uber was broken as fuck, almost all of my observations were that outside of uber it's far better than any other medigun. Being tolerant and open to communication at no point actually requires you to entertain uneducated points that are objectively wrong or unrelated.

Having killing make a decision by throwing darts at a rotating board is preferable to patting the UGC children on the head and pretending that their steel highlander experience gives them serious input on how 6s functions.

to be fair though mike is probably the person in the game who would play the best with the quick fix. since you're taking the skill of the people arguing into account you might wanna think about that. he can jump around with 250 constant health followed by the best medic in europe and pretend it's mge. yet he thinks it's stupid, because it is.

Can't we all just forget the quickfix and go back to two shiny, invulnerable pockets hugging it out in a door.

I think it comes down to Killing didn't want every team practicing quickfix for the next 4 weeks, and then right when the season starts hes like LOL JK Quick Fix is banned see the invite vots. I assume he took that 90% of the Lan contestants wanted it banned, he just assumed that % would play out across all of invite. Admins do try and make decisions to benefit the whole league even if its not super transparent as to why. Just my guess.

The quick fix is NOT boring. It is a more dynamic way to play the game.

The heavy and sniper classes ARE boring. They are a less dynamic way to play the game.

We are arguing about balance in a game with NINE different classes. This has always been a game of rock, paper, scissors. The beauty of TF2 has always been how so many different play-styles can interact in a single FPS game, forcing players to react to different situations.

Banning the quick fix makes 6v6 more about following the rules of advantages and less about competitors adapting to and overcoming their opponent's play.

There was never a previous LAN where Heavy was used to this extent. No one ever said "Hey we should run Heavy a lot" when Quick Fix was irrelevant (or they were just massive douchebags).