what?
the man was trying to propose new ideas, a way to work with valve.
instead, 20 people would've preferred to see "PLZ BRING IT BACK", and that's shown by random "return to normal ty" comments getting points.
forum warrior, spare us.

remove mini crits keep speed boost lower damage

Maybe the reason every soldier uses the escape plan is a problem with soldier, not a problem with the weapon itself.

The class needs speed in order to be viable (or balanced against scouts)-- I'd say that's a problem with the class itself, not the weapon.

I don't think the escape plan with even 65 damage is too powerful.

For pubs the nerf might be ok. Moving like a electroshocked monkey is hammering on your keyboard could get you out alive.
But essentially it got nerfed into oblivion. The equalizer split was good, it removed the option to just go beserk and wreck everything while on 10 HP but this...

Just take a look at it:
High HP:
- can't get healed
->inferior to every other weapon

Low HP before the nerf:
+ move faster
- can't get healed
(-) fast = "SHOOT ME" sign
->if you're close, you're dead, otherwise you might get away

Low HP after the nerf:
+ move faster
- can't get healed
- VISIBLE "SHOOT ME" SIGN
- mini-crits
- mini-crits 1 second after you switched weapons
->you're dead, mini-crits from across the map will kill you

There's only one situation where rocketjumping or the disciplinary action wouldn't do the same/better: You're alone, around a corner, everyone is far away so no one can kill you, no one can heal you, you can't use the whip and you don't have enough HP left to jump.

That doesn't even happen in comp (unless you get yourself down to 10 hp after spawning). Apart from rollouts it's useless.

Why not fix it on the competitive end since these seems to have aggrieved comp scene the most? In 6s could it be possible to disable mini crits? The only other precaution would be to ban the gloves of running urgently. Direct hits would be nerfed in this server setup and jarate, buff banner, fan of war,steak, would be useless. But apart from those items the stock/mainstay weapons in 6s wouldn't be broken. Voila you have the pre-update escape plan. This may be a fairly poor stop gap solution because the white list would become more rigid rather than flexible but it could be a stop gap until the escape plan is de-nerfed.

jk i read wrong

I pretty much agree with the non silly people but I think mini crits have damage falloff. I main scout though (Muahahaha) so I don't really care I just remember hitting DH mini crits for around 150 and up close mini crits for around 190.

minicrits have no dropoff, but they do have ramp up

Hmm, that is quite interesting. Thanks!

This forum thread doesn't work with valve in any way or sort. Only emails or posts on the official forums really do anything. Honestly this could have been shoved into the main patch thread, but it was pretty obviously going to devolve into mostly complaining about the change and go back.

There's little discussion to this other than a lot of players don't like it and want it changed back for the most part. Maybe add the damage nerf that people have wanted before.

PS. I really dislike threads on this forum that talk about changing weapons because valve isn't coming to this thread just to change their weapons for us. To me they're like the weapon threads in the SPUF that bring up discussions that will never get anything done. Only banning threads are semi-productive (mostly not), but this was a nerf.

EDIT and PSS: He also asked the question "why am I getting -fragged", sorry for answering it.

As a roamer main I'd rather have it do 0 damage than have minicrits

Keep the mini crits but have it disappear right when you switch weapons. It would add a decent area of skill for players that want to avoid mini crit damage by timing the weapon switch correctly.

maybe how the equalizer does less damage at full health, have the escape plan actually lower your speed at full health, but increase it as you get damaged.

The damage isn't the problem though. The problem is that the escape plan's utility far outshines every other melee weapon that the soldier has. Since there was effectively no reason NOT to use the escape plan, everyone ran it. Valve needed to add a risk to actually using the escape plan, otherwise it would forever stay way better than every other melee.

As you all keep saying, you would gladly give up the damage of the EP to have it back to how it was before, but you aren't even going to use the damage in the first place with it, so what the fuck kind of downside would that be? The escaping utility is worth way more than just losing your damage, since it gives you a second chance. Minicrits mean that there's an ACTUAL DOWNSIDE TO USING THE ESCAPE PLAN. A downside for using one weapon and not another is something you need if you want balanced sidegrades. As it stood before, there was not a single reason in the world not to use the escape plan.

unbanthedisciplinaryaction2013
paintrainbackcaps2013

brownymaster, have my +1.
you're civil and post well thought out responses. did not mean to call you out, just to defend a forum poster with ideas.
ggwp, sir.

Valve designed the game to be pub orientated.

In pubs, I can see using a pain train if someone is taking the pub seriously (I see it on some dustbowl servers where people seem to take it as serious as 6s), in gravel pit, and sometimes used pushing last in 6s (pain train + skip jump on blands last).

In badwater at least, I love to use market gardener. It's a fun weapon.

In highlander people use the whip for 5cp.

Hell the half zatoichi is used in medieval mode. So what is there? The other half of the equalizer nerf and the stock.

Kinda similar to scout with basher/atomizer/sandman/candy cane. No one uses the fan of war or the stock if given a choice, yet no nerf to the basher.

To me, I don't understand the issue of soldier melee weapons not being used.

Sure, everyone in 6s ran it, but everyone in 6s also never uses a large majority of the other weapons. It's superior in 6s, but not superior in everything else.

How about the ubersaw? should we nerf that? I'm sure people would rather go play pga tour golf demo or actually use the kukri to avoid the biggest threat towards the sniper, a pyro.

if the escape plan was balanced and every other melee besides the whip was shit

just give the shitty melees a gimped speed-boost on top of their normal stats

in 6s yes.
We can't look at it from only a 6s standpoint. All the other melees have their uses except for a few, just like every other class in the game.

free the disciplinary action just to show valve how much more powerful it is than the escape plan is even when it doesn't have marked for death

seems like a legit idea

Thing is, even after the nerf, just my experiences obviously but I still see a lot of pub sollies use it.

Pub sollies don't like walking around being low on health and slow, so any weapon that allows them to walk faster is still preferable.

And can we just all agree that the stock shovel is just a horrible melee to begin with? Second slowest class in the game and you expect him to try and land point blank shots on faster classes? With the only exception being the heavy but chances are, even a lit heavy has more health than you and heavies are unlikely to be out of ammo.

So the idea of balancing weapons around their stock counterparts is just a terribly dated idea and holds no water when considering other unlocks of other classes (Pyro... I mean, why don't Valve nerf the Axtinguisher if we're using the equip % as a reason?).

the market gardener is gimmicky in every form of tf2, the zatoichi's downside makes it a liability (this would be so fucking cool with speed), and people only use the pain train so the soldier can go do nothing on the cart while the scout goes out and kills stuff, the equalizer and stock shovel are actually useless

it's not the escape plan's fault that the other melees are trash, if you want sidegrades, you should have equally-viable sidegrades balanced with the game, not equally-shitty ones

as has been mentioned already, the purpose of the update was to make it so there was not one weapon that was used by 90% of the player base, but rather multiple weapons that are used by large portions of the population. These changes were not solely directed at the competitive scene and will probably have the desired effect within the greater tf2 community. As for our little niche game mode, the nerf isnt game breaking and still allows a soldier to equalize to middle which is all we should care about.

This fails to explain where an Axtinguisher, Spy-cicle, bushwacka, ubersaw, or caber nerf is. All of those have like the same usage numbers, and are still intact, and un-nerfed, as well as practically straight upgrades to the stock (debatable with spycicle).
There's literally no reason to run the stock fire axe, no reason to run the bottle, no reason to run the kukri (beyond jarate being banned in 6's, it'd be the same thing.) This nerf is an unexplainable nerf in comparison to the current powerlevel of other melee unlocks.

The market gardener is a fun weapon. For people who want to have fun in pubs. I'm sure it wasn't designed to be a particularly useful weapon just like the golf club for demo, which is literally a complete downgrade for stock, but it's fun and people will use it for laughs and have fun with their friends. After all, it is a video game designed around pubs which are supposed to be fun.

The samurai sword was made specifically for medieval mode so it has its use.

The pain train is used more seldomly as is the half zatoichi because they are both for the demoman and the soldier. A demo would use a pain train lots and a soldier would use it still, but a lot less. Same goes for the half zatoichi. Changing these weapons to only demoman is not really something smart.

There is many forms of TF2. You simply can't look at it only from a competitive standpoint.

maybe so

but unless pubbers use weapons specifically because they are useless, making them viable in comp usually doesn't make them any less fun

and i forgot about demo, but yeah, it's not like they haven't split weapons before

also who gives the tiniest amount of shit about medieval mode balance, huntsman sniper is allowed for gods sake

I think we all have to remember that stock melee weapons are inherently bad except for spy. They can't be compared to the current pool because in general, melee weapons suck (like they're suppose to). Melee weapon slots have instead become a utility tool that can make up for shortcomings of a certain class (like Pyro's close range damage being shit or Soldier's speed problem). I'd expect 99% of players to not use stock melee unless they're playing spy.

How about just be the exact opposite of the Equalizer, high health will deal normal
damage, and as you are lower on health you will do less damage.
I'm not so sure if this is even possible but, if the Equalizer does it, why can't the Escape Plan do it?

A -5 damage done for every 25 hp lost.
200 Health = 65 Damage
175 Health = 60 Damage
150 Health = 55 Damage
125 Health = 50 Damage
100 Health = 45 Damage
75 Health = 40 Damage
50 Health = 35 Damage
25 Health = 30 Damage

For the love of Gabe, it's called the "Escape Plan" not "How to get killed faster when
low health Plan".

And for everyone saying that this is a good nerf, think about this situation :
You're a soldier, fighting another soldier on the badlands wood padio close to launch pad, you killed him but you're really hurt, about 18 health left and you want to escape either from the house or choke, the soldier you killed calls that you're 18 health and a scout from the badlands battlements (balcony with boxes) sees you running away, shoots (he only needs) 2 pistol shots and BAM, you're dead.
Before this nerf, you would have escaped.

Also, as a roamer I use the Escape Plan way too often, and now, well fuck it, I'm going Tek style, time to pull out the Pain Train, wish the Market Gardener would have been allowed on ETF2L.

this