OK I GOT IT. Our solution. We don't have to touch 6v6. Most of us started playing comp by playing 6s. But that was the same playerbase that was willing to put in hardwork in order to get better and figure out this game.
Let's be realistic, newer players (anyone with less that 1-2 year of comp play) aren't like the majority of 6s players. They started out with HL and then moved towards 6v6. Any new player has to go through that same process: pub-> HL -> 6v6.
Instead of dropping our pants and bending over for valve (aka changing 6s) we should get them to support HL more. Any thing valve does in order to benefit HL will also benefit 6v6 in one way or another. For example, if valve implements an spectator interface where does it say that it is only to be used for highlander?
We don't even bring up 6v6 to valve, we use HL we get them to implement their in-game HL lobby or whatever, re-balance weapons, etc; meanwhile those of us who love 6v6 get to sit there and keep playing the game we love and with patience we receive some support as well.
Think about it, the banlist from UGC is like 10 weapons, 10!!!. It is way easier to start there. I don't even know why we bother with 6s. It is perfect.
OK I GOT IT. Our solution. We don't have to touch 6v6. Most of us started playing comp by playing 6s. But that was the same playerbase that was willing to put in hardwork in order to get better and figure out this game.
Let's be realistic, newer players (anyone with less that 1-2 year of comp play) aren't like the majority of 6s players. They started out with HL and then moved towards 6v6. Any new player has to go through that same process: pub-> HL -> 6v6.
Instead of dropping our pants and bending over for valve (aka changing 6s) we should get them to support HL more. Any thing valve does in order to benefit HL will also benefit 6v6 in one way or another. For example, if valve implements an spectator interface where does it say that it is only to be used for highlander?
We don't even bring up 6v6 to valve, we use HL we get them to implement their in-game HL lobby or whatever, re-balance weapons, etc; meanwhile those of us who love 6v6 get to sit there and keep playing the game we love and with patience we receive some support as well.
Think about it, the banlist from UGC is like 10 weapons, 10!!!. It is way easier to start there. I don't even know why we bother with 6s. It is perfect.
i know who's next on sezco's list
i know who's next on sezco's list
exactly.
An improvement to HL in the realm of more advertizing and a drive to improve unlocks is an improvement to 6v6 on the merits that players will always trickle up to the higher level of competitive. We'll get better unlocks and more players in the end without sacrificing for a lesser level of gameplay.
In the event HL got so huge that Valve held a lan for it, then fuck it, we can all go join HL teams and win.
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accept me, cause I don't go to lans
exactly.
An improvement to HL in the realm of more advertizing and a drive to improve unlocks is an improvement to 6v6 on the merits that players will always trickle up to the higher level of competitive. We'll get better unlocks and more players in the end without sacrificing for a lesser level of gameplay.
In the event HL got so huge that Valve held a lan for it, then fuck it, we can all go join HL teams and win.
[spoiler]accept me, cause I don't go to lans[/spoiler]
If we put a sneaky TFTV or ETF2L logo in the lobby thing it might get some people in here
If we put a sneaky TFTV or ETF2L logo in the lobby thing it might get some people in here
I've always considered the process to be either pub>highlander or pub>sixes. It doesn't seem to me that a lot of people use highlander as a transition, a lot of players who start highlander are happy to just continue on with it and never consider sixes to be another step upwards. Because of that I think to expand the sixes scene the focus should be put more towards existing pub players than those who are in highlander. My perspective might be different than most though because I started playing sixes with only about 30 hours of tf2 lol.
I've always considered the process to be either pub>highlander or pub>sixes. It doesn't seem to me that a lot of people use highlander as a transition, a lot of players who start highlander are happy to just continue on with it and never consider sixes to be another step upwards. Because of that I think to expand the sixes scene the focus should be put more towards existing pub players than those who are in highlander. My perspective might be different than most though because I started playing sixes with only about 30 hours of tf2 lol.
I started competitive with like 30 hours in tf2. I played HL because that's what seemed the most similar to pubbing for me, and then after about 1 steel season I saw a cast of the ESEA Lan, and was amazed. The game looked so much quicker and organized, and seemed like a lot of fun. I moved to 6s and haven't looked back.
Lesson being we need to see some articles on the teamfortress.com home page when we do something like raise $20,000 to send 2 teams to europe to compete in a lan
I started competitive with like 30 hours in tf2. I played HL because that's what seemed the most similar to pubbing for me, and then after about 1 steel season I saw a cast of the ESEA Lan, and was amazed. The game looked so much quicker and organized, and seemed like a lot of fun. I moved to 6s and haven't looked back.
Lesson being we need to see some articles on the teamfortress.com home page when we do something like raise $20,000 to send 2 teams to europe to compete in a lan
has there ever been a HL lan?
has there ever been a HL lan?
In terms of being the Main Event for a TF2 tournament? No.
In terms of being the Main Event for a TF2 tournament? No.
I went straight from pub to 6's when I started a few years ago, but most of the people I know started from pub, went to Highlander, and felt they wanted something more serious so moved to 6's. Sounds like a solid idea to me.
I went straight from pub to 6's when I started a few years ago, but most of the people I know started from pub, went to Highlander, and felt they wanted something more serious so moved to 6's. Sounds like a solid idea to me.
That is a really good point. That was my exact path (pub->highlander->6s), and I know that a LOT of players (including many higher level players in 6s) got their start in highlander.
More comp highlander players will ultimately mean more comp 6s players.
That is a really good point. That was my exact path (pub->highlander->6s), and I know that a LOT of players (including many higher level players in 6s) got their start in highlander.
More comp highlander players will ultimately mean more comp 6s players.
I think HL is a great transition. I started with HL because it seemed fun, I didn't even know about 6's at this time. Through HL I heard about 6's, then after seeing ESEA lan being casted after some of my HL friends told me about it. In my opinion HL is a stepping stone up to 6's. The people that want a more serious and skill based format move up to 6's eventually. You're spot on with this.
I think HL is a great transition. I started with HL because it seemed fun, I didn't even know about 6's at this time. Through HL I heard about 6's, then after seeing ESEA lan being casted after some of my HL friends told me about it. In my opinion HL is a stepping stone up to 6's. The people that want a more serious and skill based format move up to 6's eventually. You're spot on with this.
Hipposcholar u suk
i know baby
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btw this is all an scheme for 6s to still secretly hate HL and pubs and yet benefit from both MWAHAHA
[quote=Hippo]scholar u suk[/quote]
i know baby
[spoiler]btw this is all an scheme for 6s to still secretly hate HL and pubs and yet benefit from both MWAHAHA[/spoiler]
This is all structured like a pyramid, and we were trying to put valve on top but that is not their position. They should be the base, and on top of them pub communities then HL then 6s and all the infrastructure for tournaments.
This is all structured like a pyramid, and we were trying to put valve on top but that is not their position. They should be the base, and on top of them pub communities then HL then 6s and all the infrastructure for tournaments.
That is THE point that so many people failed to notice in the original post by Sal.. This is not a new league, or any attempt to "overthrow" the current competitive scene (whether HL or 6s) but rather a more organised, more challenging, and more useful (for Valve's dev team) form of pubbing. This comes with a benefit where people will become more aware of the competitive scene, and start asking questions. This is where the more knowledgeable competitive players come in, what if Valve were to allow a coaching system where each side could be allowed a coach in spectator mode, only allowed to watch their team? It would take maybe a season of experience in UGC/ESEA/ETF2L/CEVO to be allowed to coach. The players would learn about competitive play, while getting to actually talk to the players themselves, and the coaches could even use the opportunity to recruit promising players for their teams!
I imagine after a relatively short while, plenty of PubStars will begin climbing the ranks in PubLander and feel the need for greater challenges/rewards than PL can offer them, this is where competitive comes in. I can see a side-effect of this being that as more skilled players cross over from pubs, the pubs themselves will become less challenging for newer players, and as such lighten up the learning curve for beginners... Maybe helping keep more newcomers interested in the game we all love?
That is THE point that so many people failed to notice in the original post by Sal.. This is not a new league, or any attempt to "overthrow" the current competitive scene (whether HL or 6s) but rather a more organised, more challenging, and more useful (for Valve's dev team) form of pubbing. This comes with a benefit where people will become more aware of the competitive scene, and start asking questions. This is where the more knowledgeable competitive players come in, what if Valve were to allow a coaching system where each side could be allowed a coach in spectator mode, only allowed to watch their team? It would take maybe a season of experience in UGC/ESEA/ETF2L/CEVO to be allowed to coach. The players would learn about competitive play, while getting to actually talk to the players themselves, and the coaches could even use the opportunity to recruit promising players for their teams!
I imagine after a relatively short while, plenty of PubStars will begin climbing the ranks in PubLander and feel the need for greater challenges/rewards than PL can offer them, this is where competitive comes in. I can see a side-effect of this being that as more skilled players cross over from pubs, the pubs themselves will become less challenging for newer players, and as such lighten up the learning curve for beginners... Maybe helping keep more newcomers interested in the game we all love?
Hey I have an absolutely ground breaking idea.
Perhaps the best way to help 6v6 grow is to support and promote 6v6?
I'm not going to suggest that no one ever moves from HL to 6v6, but why do we feel having that step there is better than them just trying 6v6 from the get go? Most people who're really trying highlander properly are already crossing most of the boundaries between 6v6 and pub anyway.
Mumble? Check
Pick a class and stick with it? Check
Organise times to play at? Check
The only thing you're doing is asking someone to pick 1 of 4 rather than 9 classes. If they weren't willing to ditch spy in favour of one of the cookie cutter classes before playing Highlander for an extended period of time, what makes you think they'll be more willing after?
Hey I have an absolutely ground breaking idea.
Perhaps the best way to help 6v6 grow is to support and promote 6v6?
I'm not going to suggest that no one ever moves from HL to 6v6, but why do we feel having that step there is better than them just trying 6v6 from the get go? Most people who're really trying highlander properly are already crossing most of the boundaries between 6v6 and pub anyway.
Mumble? Check
Pick a class and stick with it? Check
Organise times to play at? Check
The only thing you're doing is asking someone to pick 1 of 4 rather than 9 classes. If they weren't willing to ditch spy in favour of one of the cookie cutter classes before playing Highlander for an extended period of time, what makes you think they'll be more willing after?
A year ago in s6 hl, i played in steel with pub friends. The team died after the season and I went on to tryout for other teams. Stumbled upon IFA, and I didn't make it but was told to play 6s pocket because I played like one. For some reason I never listened to thos e words and kept playing highlander and it took 2 mentors to finally reach the decision highlander isn't for me. after 4 seasons of highlander I can gladly say I hate highlander. I agree with scholar, people should go pub->hl->6s
A year ago in s6 hl, i played in steel with pub friends. The team died after the season and I went on to tryout for other teams. Stumbled upon IFA, and I didn't make it but was told to play 6s pocket because I played like one. For some reason I never listened to thos e words and kept playing highlander and it took 2 mentors to finally reach the decision highlander isn't for me. after 4 seasons of highlander I can gladly say I hate highlander. I agree with scholar, people should go pub->hl->6s
[quote]eXactly[/quote]
ftfy #14
All we have to do for valve to figure out how to support 6s is break up the metagame in an abstract and fundamental way.
You always have a medic and a pocket, no matter what the format is. You usually have a combo assist, a passive player, and a flank player, and then a roamer. In order, those spots happen to be filled in 6s by... Medic, soldier, demoman, scout, scout, soldier. In HL, they're filled mainly by medic, heavy, demoman, pyro/soldier, scout/pyro, soldier/scout, with some overlap and weird dynamicism and other pseudo niches going on. If you tell valve, hey, these are the roles we have going on and this is how people play our game and this is what classes people pick to fill these important roles, that's going to spark a lot more important internal discussion for them than saying "we play these classes with these items on these maps and it's just how it's done". Even if what we come up with isn't perfectly accurate it's still a hell of a lot better of a start because it gets the conversation rolling in a more useful way.
All we have to do for valve to figure out [i]how[/i] to support 6s is break up the metagame in an abstract and fundamental way.
You always have a medic and a pocket, no matter what the format is. You usually have a combo assist, a passive player, and a flank player, and then a roamer. In order, those spots happen to be filled in 6s by... Medic, soldier, demoman, scout, scout, soldier. In HL, they're filled mainly by medic, heavy, demoman, pyro/soldier, scout/pyro, soldier/scout, with some overlap and weird dynamicism and other pseudo niches going on. If you tell valve, hey, these are the roles we have going on and this is how people play our game and this is what classes people pick to fill these important roles, that's going to spark a lot more important internal discussion for them than saying "we play these classes with these items on these maps and it's just how it's done". Even if what we come up with isn't perfectly accurate it's still a hell of a lot better of a start because it gets the conversation rolling in a more useful way.
The thing is no one is thinking outside of the box. In the minds of many 6v6 isn't even the same game as TF2 and it doesn't have to be. 6v6 will grow as long as people hear about it and try to play it. The best players will always find their way to 6v6.
What I mean with my first statement is that in order to improve gameplay for 6v6 we need valve but we don't need to change TF2. If they give us enough power to change the game more through server plug-ins or mods then we can improve or balance 6v6 as we choose without having to bed over. There are few problems with 6v6 gameplay but if there are any that need to be addressed we can change them ourselves. Lange gave us MGE, other members can give us a 6 sticks sticky launcher if valve gives us mods, plug-ins or competitive-revised versions of stock weapons.
The thing is no one is thinking outside of the box. In the minds of many 6v6 isn't even the same game as TF2 and it doesn't have to be. 6v6 will grow as long as people hear about it and try to play it. The best players will always find their way to 6v6.
What I mean with my first statement is that in order to improve gameplay for 6v6 we need valve but we don't need to change TF2. If they give us enough power to change the game more through server plug-ins or mods then we can improve or balance 6v6 as we choose without having to bed over. There are few problems with 6v6 gameplay but if there are any that need to be addressed we can change them ourselves. Lange gave us MGE, other members can give us a 6 sticks sticky launcher if valve gives us mods, plug-ins or competitive-revised versions of stock weapons.
I feel like this is definitely the way to go as someone who has never played any competitive and who has just watched. I might one day get into competitive and from my point of view i don't really know where to start. Do I start in a lobby or do i just join team with 0 comp experience. A in game stepping stone that lets players say that they at least understand the basics even in very relaxed setting is just what comp tf2 community need to attract people to watch and play.
This also is a round about way of asking for a very large and detailed guide in to comp tf2 on tf.tv
I feel like this is definitely the way to go as someone who has never played any competitive and who has just watched. I might one day get into competitive and from my point of view i don't really know where to start. Do I start in a lobby or do i just join team with 0 comp experience. A in game stepping stone that lets players say that they at least understand the basics even in very relaxed setting is just what comp tf2 community need to attract people to watch and play.
This also is a round about way of asking for a very large and detailed guide in to comp tf2 on tf.tv
I just have to ask, how do people feel that this step is actually going to damage 6v6 play?
Item rebalance? Not likely going to have a negative effect on the items already allowed, and if so, not significantly. Some fixed ones may even be allowed back in after a decent testing period.
Forcing people to play highlander causes them to avoid 6v6? From what I understand, the 6s players find HL too slow-paced to enjoy themselves. So will many pubbers. They will either start looking for faster options, or go back to pubs; some gain, no loss.
Some people already in competitive might feel the need to experiment with new gameplay styles? So be it, might trim down the number of players in some of the current leagues, we could get a new league with a different set of rules; the new league might even attract more interest due to its variance from conventional rules. If it is doomed to failure, things will go back to the way they are already. Not to mention, the seeds have already been sown, and people are considering new gameplay possibilities as we speak. Sometimes it is good having people ask questions.
Valve overthrowing competitive play and instating a fascist leader with complete control over every decision, whilst forcing every league member to be their personal sex slave? More than likely going to happen. Hurry up and don your tinfoil wizard caps, light the torches, sharpen your pitchforks, and march upon the capital!
I just have to ask, how do people feel that this step is actually going to damage 6v6 play?
[u]Item rebalance?[/u] Not likely going to have a negative effect on the items already allowed, and if so, not significantly. Some fixed ones may even be allowed back in after a decent testing period.
[u]Forcing people to play highlander causes them to avoid 6v6?[/u] From what I understand, the 6s players find HL too slow-paced to enjoy themselves. So will many pubbers. They will either start looking for faster options, or go back to pubs; some gain, no loss.
[u]Some people already in competitive might feel the need to experiment with new gameplay styles?[/u] So be it, might trim down the number of players in some of the current leagues, we could get a new league with a different set of rules; the new league might even attract more interest due to its variance from conventional rules. If it is doomed to failure, things will go back to the way they are already. Not to mention, the seeds have already been sown, and people are considering new gameplay possibilities as we speak. Sometimes it is good having people ask questions.
[u]Valve overthrowing competitive play and instating a fascist leader with complete control over every decision, whilst forcing every league member to be their personal sex slave?[/u] More than likely going to happen. Hurry up and don your tinfoil wizard caps, light the torches, sharpen your pitchforks, and march upon the capital!
I was first exposed to competitive in January of 2012 via a Highlander pub competition between two "rival" groups (that used the same servers, actually), one of which I was a part of. Then, my group formed a Highlander team for that upcoming UGC season. I tried watching their games, but couldn't because of my stupid bedtime. A friend told me about the ESEA LAN, and I was hooked after watching. I instantly joined every competitive thing I could find. I started with Newbie Mixes.
Meanwhile, part of my group split off into its own group (with the HL team moving with them), and I followed them. I am still a part of that group today, but I rarely converse with them anymore. Last summer, some of them formed a 6s team, and others of us, including me after leaving the 6s team I already joined (I wanted to play with friends, and they needed a person) formed a "fun" 6s team. However, the HL and main 6s team both died, leaving this "fun" 6s team as the main team. We did decently. Two of us went off to play on another team for 6s, while I continued to play for them on their rebooted Highlander team. While I couldn't play on the 6s team as a starter due to the school year starting, I could play on the Highlander team. The next season, I tried getting the team back together but I was unsuccessful.
Last ESEA season, I joined the infamous Point n Click (now Donde) as a backup. I tried playing this season, but I didn't find a team in time so I've given up on playing until college, or when I can go to bed at 10:30/11 or later.
I don't know why I typed all this, just wanted to make a long post I guess.
TLDR: My TF2 experience has been pubs -> HL -> 6s. According to what Marxist said to me on Steam, this is how it happens to most people. Here's a pastebin of Marxist's and my Steam chat: http://pastebin.com/Z406hFbW
I was first exposed to competitive in January of 2012 via a Highlander pub competition between two "rival" groups (that used the same servers, actually), one of which I was a part of. Then, my group formed a Highlander team for that upcoming UGC season. I tried watching their games, but couldn't because of my stupid bedtime. A friend told me about the ESEA LAN, and I was hooked after watching. I instantly joined every competitive thing I could find. I started with Newbie Mixes.
Meanwhile, part of my group split off into its own group (with the HL team moving with them), and I followed them. I am still a part of that group today, but I rarely converse with them anymore. Last summer, some of them formed a 6s team, and others of us, including me after leaving the 6s team I already joined (I wanted to play with friends, and they needed a person) formed a "fun" 6s team. However, the HL and main 6s team both died, leaving this "fun" 6s team as the main team. We did decently. Two of us went off to play on another team for 6s, while I continued to play for them on their rebooted Highlander team. While I couldn't play on the 6s team as a starter due to the school year starting, I could play on the Highlander team. The next season, I tried getting the team back together but I was unsuccessful.
Last ESEA season, I joined the infamous Point n Click (now Donde) as a backup. I tried playing this season, but I didn't find a team in time so I've given up on playing until college, or when I can go to bed at 10:30/11 or later.
I don't know why I typed all this, just wanted to make a long post I guess.
[b]TLDR:[/b] My TF2 experience has been pubs -> HL -> 6s. According to what Marxist said to me on Steam, this is how it happens to most people. Here's a pastebin of Marxist's and my Steam chat: http://pastebin.com/Z406hFbW
dellortI've always considered the process to be either pub>highlander or pub>sixes. It doesn't seem to me that a lot of people use highlander as a transition, a lot of players who start highlander are happy to just continue on with it and never consider sixes to be another step upwards. Because of that I think to expand the sixes scene the focus should be put more towards existing pub players than those who are in highlander. My perspective might be different than most though because I started playing sixes with only about 30 hours of tf2 lol.
i actually got into sixes because of highlander, same goes for my whole first 6s ^^
[quote=dellort]I've always considered the process to be either pub>highlander or pub>sixes. It doesn't seem to me that a lot of people use highlander as a transition, a lot of players who start highlander are happy to just continue on with it and never consider sixes to be another step upwards. Because of that I think to expand the sixes scene the focus should be put more towards existing pub players than those who are in highlander. My perspective might be different than most though because I started playing sixes with only about 30 hours of tf2 lol.[/quote]
i actually got into sixes because of highlander, same goes for my whole first 6s ^^