BLoodSireRuwinBLoodSirenote, I'm against something like Jarate that rewards an entire team with greater DPS just for throwing something sorta at someone
run pyro! you of all people can't be opposed to this!
plus, they still have a sniper after the jarate. it'd be worth revisiting as a community. just to try it. maybe see if we like it. just the tip.
I'm not 100% against it, but stemming from my cynicism, I'm trying to maintain a certain grasp on how hard the comp community will push back and I just can't ever get to the point that someone will go pyro to counter when a sniper might throw his jarate and think players will be okay with it.
I think there are some unlocks that have flawed concepts. Jarate, in my humble opinion, borders this line as it has a huge reward for minimal risk. Note the reward isn't just in the weapon perks, as I see it it is mainly in the weapon use. It's a throwable, it requires little to no aiming. This is my main problem with it. It carries very big implications for very little effort.
Something like the sydney sleeper on the other hand provides similar bonuses but is a completely viable side-grade, imo. Combined with the buschwaka you could have some fun moments... but again jarate, the way I see it, bypasses something core to the competitive format
I think one of the strongest points about valve's proposed system, is that unlocks like the jarate, if proved to be too huge of a reward for a minimal risk, will be elected to be banned by teams -> which will come to valve's notice, and they will work on balancing it to a more agreeable level.
Ruwinpatternzquestion
i'm all for trying it. i want the game to grow. i want the game to be exciting for more than just the existing 6s fan-base. but i promise you that i am one of few who will support this idea as an inviter.
I think Ruwin's support is wonderful, he's looking at this system with the possibility of far greater dynamic and growth for the community- We may have to leave our comfort zones, but in all honesty, maybe Valve's belief is the slap in the face we all need to at least give a chance to an incredibly more dynamic level of competitive play.
[quote=BLoodSire][quote=Ruwin][quote=BLoodSire]note, I'm against something like Jarate that rewards an entire team with greater DPS just for throwing something sorta at someone[/quote]
run pyro! you of all people can't be opposed to this!
plus, they still have a sniper after the jarate. it'd be worth revisiting as a community. just to try it. maybe see if we like it. just the tip.[/quote]
I'm not 100% against it, but stemming from my cynicism, I'm trying to maintain a certain grasp on how hard the comp community will push back and I just can't ever get to the point that someone will go pyro to counter when a sniper might throw his jarate and think players will be okay with it.
I think there are some unlocks that have flawed concepts. Jarate, in my humble opinion, borders this line as it has a huge reward for minimal risk. Note the reward isn't just in the weapon perks, as I see it it is mainly in the weapon use. It's a throwable, it requires little to no aiming. This is my main problem with it. It carries very big implications for very little effort.
Something like the sydney sleeper on the other hand provides similar bonuses but is a completely viable side-grade, imo. Combined with the buschwaka you could have some fun moments... but again jarate, the way I see it, bypasses something core to the competitive format[/quote]
I think one of the strongest points about valve's proposed system, is that unlocks like the jarate, if proved to be too huge of a reward for a minimal risk, will be elected to be banned by teams -> which will come to valve's notice, and they will work on balancing it to a more agreeable level.
[quote=Ruwin][quote=patternz]question[/quote]
i'm all for trying it. i want the game to grow. i want the game to be exciting for more than just the existing 6s fan-base. but i promise you that i am one of few who will support this idea as an inviter.[/quote]
I think Ruwin's support is wonderful, he's looking at this system with the possibility of far greater dynamic and growth for the community- We may have to leave our comfort zones, but in all honesty, maybe Valve's belief is the slap in the face we all need to at least give a chance to an incredibly more dynamic level of competitive play.
I've lost track of the direction this thread is heading from Sal's OP, so here's what I want to ask in rebuttal of Robin's belief of 6s from the OP: Does Walker REALLY find HL that much more interesting because of the full retard unlocks? Minus frag me all you want for having an opinion that may differ from yours, but by watching several HL games I felt the following:
I didn't find watching a wrangler engineer cause a Yukon-length stalemate on Badwater entertaining. I wasn't impressed when a spy clicked off his Dead Ringer and chain-killed two people without repercussions because the spy can just DR and Spycicle out of a pyro's fun vacuum. I don't deem pyro full-critting with all of his fun vacuum weapons something that requires a whole lot of skill, similarly with an Eyelander demoman with the easy-bash shield and the turn-control boots getting a medic pick. Watching an engineer plop down a minisentry while the other members of his HL team are distracting the enemy, seeing him die but clean up with the minisentry alone and actually hearing casters call it a "great play" just makes me close the tab and do something else.
HOWEVER
I am personally entertained by an engineer getting an airshot kill with the Rescue Ranger even though the thing does fuckall for damage. Watching a demoman catch a chunk of a team completely unawares with the ScoRes is hype-worthy. A Buff Banner play by a team on the defense being able to put enough damage out to hold the line for those last seconds is definitely something that would keep me on the edge of my seat. A medic taking a risk to Amputator taunt to keep everyone on his team up long enough to wipe the enemy team is something people would talk about in mumble. A soldier using the Reserve Shooter after successfully juggling an enemy into the air is neat. A heavy doing a legitimately long-range Sandvich toss to keep an ally alive after a bad uber exchange is highlight worthy. An enemy player intercepting that Sandvich is just as highlight worthy.
There are also grey areas like the Ullapool Caber, Vitasaw, Black Box, GRU, Frontier Justice, etc. (I'd call these gray for HL - I saw 2 Black Box soldiers in pug.na once and it was not a pleasant or quick game of Gullywash iirc). All in all, you get the point. I don't like the whole "lobby chooses to ban a handful of weapons" thing because I disagree with Robin's notion that there are weapons that do not need to be flat out banned from all types of play. I don't think that unlocks are a terrible thing in their entirety, however, and I do agree that watching the same 6s games played the same way isn't exactly pure entertainment.
Also I'd rather not see TF2 become an esport, and I'm pretty sure your average pubber doesn't want to be involved with an esport either. Rather, I'd like it to become a well-liked competitive game like Quake and UT. Don't know why everyone has this gigantic hard-on for the term "esports" since SC2 and LoL but plenty of other games did just fine without labeling themselves as such.
I've lost track of the direction this thread is heading from Sal's OP, so here's what I want to ask in rebuttal of Robin's belief of 6s from the OP: Does Walker REALLY find HL that much more interesting because of the full retard unlocks? Minus frag me all you want for having an opinion that may differ from yours, but by watching several HL games I felt the following:
I didn't find watching a wrangler engineer cause a Yukon-length stalemate on Badwater entertaining. I wasn't impressed when a spy clicked off his Dead Ringer and chain-killed two people without repercussions because the spy can just DR and Spycicle out of a pyro's fun vacuum. I don't deem pyro full-critting with all of his fun vacuum weapons something that requires a whole lot of skill, similarly with an Eyelander demoman with the easy-bash shield and the turn-control boots getting a medic pick. Watching an engineer plop down a minisentry while the other members of his HL team are distracting the enemy, seeing him die but clean up with the minisentry alone and actually hearing casters call it a "great play" just makes me close the tab and do something else.
HOWEVER
I am personally entertained by an engineer getting an airshot kill with the Rescue Ranger even though the thing does fuckall for damage. Watching a demoman catch a chunk of a team completely unawares with the ScoRes is hype-worthy. A Buff Banner play by a team on the defense being able to put enough damage out to hold the line for those last seconds is definitely something that would keep me on the edge of my seat. A medic taking a risk to Amputator taunt to keep everyone on his team up long enough to wipe the enemy team is something people would talk about in mumble. A soldier using the Reserve Shooter after successfully juggling an enemy into the air is neat. A heavy doing a legitimately long-range Sandvich toss to keep an ally alive after a bad uber exchange is highlight worthy. An enemy player intercepting that Sandvich is just as highlight worthy.
There are also grey areas like the Ullapool Caber, Vitasaw, Black Box, GRU, Frontier Justice, etc. (I'd call these gray for HL - I saw 2 Black Box soldiers in pug.na once and it was not a pleasant or quick game of Gullywash iirc). All in all, you get the point. I don't like the whole "lobby chooses to ban a handful of weapons" thing because I disagree with Robin's notion that there are weapons that do not need to be flat out banned from all types of play. I don't think that unlocks are a terrible thing in their entirety, however, and I do agree that watching the same 6s games played the same way isn't exactly pure entertainment.
Also I'd rather not see TF2 become an esport, and I'm pretty sure your average pubber doesn't want to be involved with an esport either. Rather, I'd like it to become a well-liked competitive game like Quake and UT. Don't know why everyone has this gigantic hard-on for the term "esports" since SC2 and LoL but plenty of other games did just fine without labeling themselves as such.
RadmanWhy was the sleeper banned again?
Sleeper was banned because x6 would run it to neutralize heavy classes on viaduct. Oov, who isn't a particularily good sniper (by his own admission) would run it and just charge up a shot and jarate either heavy, soldier, or demo. At that point, that class is pretty much out of the fight entirely. You can't walk a soldier with 50-150 hp into the middle of a fight wearing a jarate coat.
If someone lands a sick snap headshot or a charged shot from sniper rifle, hey thats cool takes some skill and timing, but just adding a free jarate on top for a really easy bodyshot really doesn't appeal. Add onto that the fact that it charges FASTER than regular sniper.
[quote=Radman]Why was the sleeper banned again?[/quote]
Sleeper was banned because x6 would run it to neutralize heavy classes on viaduct. Oov, who isn't a particularily good sniper (by his own admission) would run it and just charge up a shot and jarate either heavy, soldier, or demo. At that point, that class is pretty much out of the fight entirely. You can't walk a soldier with 50-150 hp into the middle of a fight wearing a jarate coat.
If someone lands a sick snap headshot or a charged shot from sniper rifle, hey thats cool takes some skill and timing, but just adding a free jarate on top for a really easy bodyshot really doesn't appeal. Add onto that the fact that it charges FASTER than regular sniper.
RadmanWhy was the sleeper banned again?
x6.oov
[quote=Radman]Why was the sleeper banned again?[/quote]
x6.oov
RadmanWhy was the sleeper banned again?
before pro viaduct, a sniper could sit on balcony well hidden from the other sniper and charge body shots pretty easily while hitting everyone damage + jarate
It would be much different now on pro-viaduct, while still viable. But there you have a prime example of people jumping to conclusions.
The battalions backup, on the other hand, is probably best left banned, though testing it and nerfing it heavily could help.
edit: i forgot about the charge buff the sleeper received...that would need to be nerfed
[quote=Radman]Why was the sleeper banned again?[/quote]
before pro viaduct, a sniper could sit on balcony well hidden from the other sniper and charge body shots pretty easily while hitting everyone damage + jarate
It would be much different now on pro-viaduct, while still viable. But there you have a prime example of people jumping to conclusions.
The battalions backup, on the other hand, is probably best left banned, though testing it and nerfing it heavily could help.
edit: i forgot about the charge buff the sleeper received...that would need to be nerfed
Blood "-1 clip size is hardly a nerf for a rocket launcher" sire now the authority on the history of weapon balance in the competitive community. This thread has finally come full circle.
Blood "-1 clip size is hardly a nerf for a rocket launcher" sire now the authority on the history of weapon balance in the competitive community. This thread has finally come full circle.
I'm still not sure why the discussion is on 6s balance. Trust me, I am ALL, ALLLLL for using more unlocks in 6s to help its stale, predicable state...but thats not the point of the thread. We're supposed to be brainstorming this for HL, its what Valve will do. You can make a million spreadsheets and have a total agreement of what to use in 6s form the whole community, Valve isn't going to care. They're thinking about doing lobbies for HL, not 6s. Can we please shift focus?
I'm still not sure why the discussion is on 6s balance. Trust me, I am ALL, ALLLLL for using more unlocks in 6s to help its stale, predicable state...but thats not the point of the thread. We're supposed to be brainstorming this for HL, its what Valve will do. You can make a million spreadsheets and have a total agreement of what to use in 6s form the whole community, Valve isn't going to care. They're thinking about doing lobbies for HL, not 6s. Can we please shift focus?
gr8stalinAlso I'd rather not see TF2 become an esport, and I'm pretty sure your average pubber doesn't want to be involved with an esport either. Rather, I'd like it to become a well-liked competitive game like Quake and UT. Don't know why everyone has this gigantic hard-on for the term "esports" since SC2 and LoL but plenty of other games did just fine without labeling themselves as such.
Quake and UT weren't called esports because their heyday was before "esport" was a common term. I think we'd all be happy if we had tournaments as large as quake/ut had whether we end up calling ourselves an esport or not. I don't really think anybody cares about the word itself, it's that it is used to describe games with large competitive scenes.
[quote=gr8stalin]Also I'd rather not see TF2 become an esport, and I'm pretty sure your average pubber doesn't want to be involved with an esport either. Rather, I'd like it to become a well-liked competitive game like Quake and UT. Don't know why everyone has this gigantic hard-on for the term "esports" since SC2 and LoL but plenty of other games did just fine without labeling themselves as such.[/quote]
Quake and UT weren't called esports because their heyday was before "esport" was a common term. I think we'd all be happy if we had tournaments as large as quake/ut had whether we end up calling ourselves an esport or not. I don't really think anybody cares about the word itself, it's that it is used to describe games with large competitive scenes.
#367
That's a good point for some of the people here but I think that the topic of why we're banning the unlocks we already ban is an important and relevant one that needs to be settled before we can understand what we would want out of valve's system, for them to focus on whatever kinds of weapons we also happen to ban and if they have no reason to deem them unbalanced then for us to see if there's some other way of coping with it than banning them.
#367
That's a good point for some of the people here but I think that the topic of why we're banning the unlocks we already ban is an important and relevant one that needs to be settled before we can understand what we would want out of valve's system, for them to focus on whatever kinds of weapons we also happen to ban and if they have no reason to deem them unbalanced then for us to see if there's some other way of coping with it than banning them.
#367
http://teamfortress.tv/forum/thread/8961-highlander-pick-ban-system
The thread where people are specifically brainstorming for highlander
#367
http://teamfortress.tv/forum/thread/8961-highlander-pick-ban-system
The thread where people are specifically brainstorming for highlander
BLoodSireI'm not 100% against it, but stemming from my cynicism, I'm trying to maintain a certain grasp on how hard the comp community will push back and I just can't ever get to the point that someone will go pyro to counter when a sniper might throw his jarate and think players will be okay with it.
I think there are some unlocks that have flawed concepts. Jarate, in my humble opinion, borders this line as it has a huge reward for minimal risk. Note the reward isn't just in the weapon perks, as I see it it is mainly in the weapon use. It's a throwable, it requires little to no aiming. This is my main problem with it. It carries very big implications for very little effort.
Something like the sydney sleeper on the other hand provides similar bonuses but is a completely viable side-grade, imo. Combined with the buschwaka you could have some fun moments... but again jarate, the way I see it, bypasses something core to the competitive format
i see what you're saying and agree to an extent. the risk vs reward is a tad off but let's break this down proper.
let's say we're holding badlands yard:
pros
mini crits on doused enemies
may cause enemy team to fall back without a fight
cons
sniper is required to peek in order to throw. if anyone is close to the entrance the sniper is peeking he has no reliable escape mechanism. he can surf a rocket or a sticky but he cannot simply push forward with counter-aggression as the other classes can. potential free pick.
you still have a sniper after he throws the jarate.
this may also have a positive impact in relation to how people position themselves. they'll think more actively about where they're standing so that potentially no more than two people get urinated upon. all i ask is that you think about the anticipation from the viewers, the excitement and the dynamism in gameplay it has to offer. stalemates are boring. i think both players and spectators can agree. let's eliminate them.
[quote=BLoodSire]I'm not 100% against it, but stemming from my cynicism, I'm trying to maintain a certain grasp on how hard the comp community will push back and I just can't ever get to the point that someone will go pyro to counter when a sniper might throw his jarate and think players will be okay with it.
I think there are some unlocks that have flawed concepts. Jarate, in my humble opinion, borders this line as it has a huge reward for minimal risk. Note the reward isn't just in the weapon perks, as I see it it is mainly in the weapon use. It's a throwable, it requires little to no aiming. This is my main problem with it. It carries very big implications for very little effort.
Something like the sydney sleeper on the other hand provides similar bonuses but is a completely viable side-grade, imo. Combined with the buschwaka you could have some fun moments... but again jarate, the way I see it, bypasses something core to the competitive format[/quote]
i see what you're saying and agree to an extent. the risk vs reward is a tad off but let's break this down proper.
let's say we're holding badlands yard:
[b]pros[/b]
[i]mini crits on doused enemies
may cause enemy team to fall back without a fight[/i]
[b]cons[/b]
[i]sniper is required to peek in order to throw. if anyone is close to the entrance the sniper is peeking he has no reliable escape mechanism. he can surf a rocket or a sticky but he cannot simply push forward with counter-aggression as the other classes can. potential free pick.
you still have a sniper after he throws the jarate.[/i]
this may also have a positive impact in relation to how people position themselves. they'll think more actively about where they're standing so that potentially no more than two people get urinated upon. all i ask is that you think about the anticipation from the viewers, the excitement and the dynamism in gameplay it has to offer. stalemates are boring. i think both players and spectators can agree. let's eliminate them.
2sy_morphiendBlood "-1 clip size is hardly a nerf for a rocket launcher" sire now the authority on the history of weapon balance in the competitive community. This thread has finally come full circle.
I'll bite. My argument was always framed around soldier unlocks allowed versus scout unlocks banned.
1) If the blackbox is legal, so should the scout candy cane
2) The blackbox gives "15 health points per enemy hit, regardless of how much damage is dealt" and only has 1 less rocket (oh no, I have to wait for autoreload to do it's thing)
3) The candy can gives only 25Hp back and the scout needs to completely kill a player for that to happen, and he has to run over to the dead body to pick up the health vile (which anyone on any team can grab) AND he is 25% more vulnerable to damage from explosives with the weapon equipped
4) How is the blackbox legal when the candy-cane is banned?
The blackbox is a fine sidegrade... but it's "downside" is hilarious compared to the candy-canes downsides and yet the latter is banned and the former is not...
[quote=2sy_morphiend]Blood "-1 clip size is hardly a nerf for a rocket launcher" sire now the authority on the history of weapon balance in the competitive community. This thread has finally come full circle.[/quote]
I'll bite. My argument was always framed around soldier unlocks allowed versus scout unlocks banned.
1) If the blackbox is legal, so should the scout candy cane
2) The blackbox gives "15 health points per enemy hit, regardless of how much damage is dealt" and only has 1 less rocket (oh no, I have to wait for autoreload to do it's thing)
3) The candy can gives only 25Hp back [b]and[/b] the scout needs to completely kill a player for that to happen, [b]and[/b] he has to run over to the dead body to pick up the health vile (which anyone on any team can grab) [b]AND[/b] he is 25% more vulnerable to damage from explosives with the weapon equipped
4) How is the blackbox legal when the candy-cane is banned?
The blackbox is a fine sidegrade... but it's "downside" is hilarious compared to the candy-canes downsides and yet the latter is banned and the former is not...
RuwinBLoodSireI'm not 100% against it, but stemming from my cynicism, I'm trying to maintain a certain grasp on how hard the comp community will push back and I just can't ever get to the point that someone will go pyro to counter when a sniper might throw his jarate and think players will be okay with it.
I think there are some unlocks that have flawed concepts. Jarate, in my humble opinion, borders this line as it has a huge reward for minimal risk. Note the reward isn't just in the weapon perks, as I see it it is mainly in the weapon use. It's a throwable, it requires little to no aiming. This is my main problem with it. It carries very big implications for very little effort.
Something like the sydney sleeper on the other hand provides similar bonuses but is a completely viable side-grade, imo. Combined with the buschwaka you could have some fun moments... but again jarate, the way I see it, bypasses something core to the competitive format
i see what you're saying and agree to an extent. the risk vs reward is a tad off but let's break this down proper.
let's say we're holding badlands yard:
pros
mini crits on doused enemies
may cause enemy team to fall back without a fight
cons
sniper is required to peek in order to throw. if anyone is close to the entrance the sniper is peeking he has no reliable escape mechanism. he can surf a rocket or a sticky but he cannot simply push forward with counter-aggression as the other classes can. potential free pick.
you still have a sniper after he throws the jarate.
this may also have a positive impact in relation to how people position themselves. they'll think more actively about where they're standing so that potentially no more than two people get urinated upon. all i ask is that you think about the anticipation from the viewers, the excitement, dynamism it has to offer. stalemates are boring. i think both players and spectators can agree. let's eliminate them.
I personally don't think Jarate is too bad, but I think the majority argument for its ban is that its way too easy to throw. You don't have to chill at a choke and wait for the enemy team to walk into it in order to toss your load, you can just sit back near spawn doors or behind your team and get a reasonable arc that dowses several members of the team. Pushing into a sniper with jarate is a pain, because they can just wing it somewhat close to you and get free damage for their team.
Its not a headshot or bodyshot level of skill or aim, just click in the general direction and hope for the best.
[quote=Ruwin][quote=BLoodSire]I'm not 100% against it, but stemming from my cynicism, I'm trying to maintain a certain grasp on how hard the comp community will push back and I just can't ever get to the point that someone will go pyro to counter when a sniper might throw his jarate and think players will be okay with it.
I think there are some unlocks that have flawed concepts. Jarate, in my humble opinion, borders this line as it has a huge reward for minimal risk. Note the reward isn't just in the weapon perks, as I see it it is mainly in the weapon use. It's a throwable, it requires little to no aiming. This is my main problem with it. It carries very big implications for very little effort.
Something like the sydney sleeper on the other hand provides similar bonuses but is a completely viable side-grade, imo. Combined with the buschwaka you could have some fun moments... but again jarate, the way I see it, bypasses something core to the competitive format[/quote]
i see what you're saying and agree to an extent. the risk vs reward is a tad off but let's break this down proper.
let's say we're holding badlands yard:
[b]pros[/b]
[i]mini crits on doused enemies
may cause enemy team to fall back without a fight[/i]
[b]cons[/b]
[i]sniper is required to peek in order to throw. if anyone is close to the entrance the sniper is peeking he has no reliable escape mechanism. he can surf a rocket or a sticky but he cannot simply push forward with counter-aggression as the other classes can. potential free pick.
you still have a sniper after he throws the jarate.[/i]
this may also have a positive impact in relation to how people position themselves. they'll think more actively about where they're standing so that potentially no more than two people get urinated upon. all i ask is that you think about the anticipation from the viewers, the excitement, dynamism it has to offer. stalemates are boring. i think both players and spectators can agree. let's eliminate them.[/quote]
I personally don't think Jarate is too bad, but I think the majority argument for its ban is that its way too easy to throw. You don't have to chill at a choke and wait for the enemy team to walk into it in order to toss your load, you can just sit back near spawn doors or behind your team and get a reasonable arc that dowses several members of the team. Pushing into a sniper with jarate is a pain, because they can just wing it somewhat close to you and get free damage for their team.
Its not a headshot or bodyshot level of skill or aim, just click in the general direction and hope for the best.
If we are trying to get back on topic, I'll repost mine from the thread about ideas for a Highlander pick/ban system:
skynetsatellite013I don't think posting ban / whitelist suggestions on specific items in this thread is useful. The purpose is to come up with a system that Valve can use to gather data for themselves. If Valve wanted the community to come up with a whitelist / blacklist for them that is a different topic.
Here are some of my thoughts.
First issue is logistics. There are over 100 weapons in the game, and a handful of set bonuses as well. We need a system that can cover all of the items while also not spending 5 minutes or more trying to set up the item list for a 15 minute match.
Second issues is troll / outlier protection. I think a majority voting system is better than any system where any one player has ban or veto power over any one item.
With these concerns in mind, here's my idea.
Each player should have his/her pick/ban list, which he/she decides offline. This makes sense because most users aren't going to change their mind for every new match, so there's no need to have the user repeat his/her choices for every single match. This saves time as well and lets matches get started faster. TF2 would need a separate menu / interface with the list of items that one can vote on, and you would go through the entire thing and select pick or ban for each. This list gets saved in your own TF2 account profile. A reasonable default setting can be debated on to be provided to people who are too lazy to go through this step and don't really want to vote.
Once a player joins a match lobby, his pick/ban list is automatically added to the pool. Once the match is ready to start, the server simply adds up everyone's pick/ban list and treats everyone as having 1 vote per item. Any item that has more bans than picks is banned, and the remainder are allowed. The final aggregated pick/ban list is displayed to every player before the match begins. This can be done very quickly to get the match going as quickly as possible without a protracted voting or debating period before every match.
EDIT: Unfortunately this system is probably much too ambitious to be easily implemented and tested in a week of IRC pugging. However people seem to like the idea in theory so hopefully Valve will at least see it and consider it.
If we are trying to get back on topic, I'll repost mine from the [url=http://teamfortress.tv/forum/thread/8961-highlander-pick-ban-system/]thread about ideas for a Highlander pick/ban system[/url]:
[quote=skynetsatellite013]I don't think posting ban / whitelist suggestions on specific items in this thread is useful. The purpose is to come up with a system that Valve can use to gather data for themselves. If Valve wanted the community to come up with a whitelist / blacklist for them that is a different topic.
Here are some of my thoughts.
First issue is logistics. There are over 100 [url=http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Weapon]weapons[/url] in the game, and a handful of set bonuses as well. We need a system that can cover all of the items while also not spending 5 minutes or more trying to set up the item list for a 15 minute match.
Second issues is troll / outlier protection. I think a majority voting system is better than any system where any one player has ban or veto power over any one item.
With these concerns in mind, here's my idea.
Each player should have his/her pick/ban list, which he/she decides offline. This makes sense because most users aren't going to change their mind for every new match, so there's no need to have the user repeat his/her choices for every single match. This saves time as well and lets matches get started faster. TF2 would need a separate menu / interface with the list of items that one can vote on, and you would go through the entire thing and select pick or ban for each. This list gets saved in your own TF2 account profile. A reasonable default setting can be debated on to be provided to people who are too lazy to go through this step and don't really want to vote.
Once a player joins a match lobby, his pick/ban list is automatically added to the pool. Once the match is ready to start, the server simply adds up everyone's pick/ban list and treats everyone as having 1 vote per item. Any item that has more bans than picks is banned, and the remainder are allowed. The final aggregated pick/ban list is displayed to every player before the match begins. This can be done very quickly to get the match going as quickly as possible without a protracted voting or debating period before every match.
EDIT: Unfortunately this system is probably much too ambitious to be easily implemented and tested in a week of IRC pugging. However people seem to like the idea in theory so hopefully Valve will at least see it and consider it.[/quote]
BLoodSire2sy_morphiendBlood "-1 clip size is hardly a nerf for a rocket launcher" sire now the authority on the history of weapon balance in the competitive community. This thread has finally come full circle.
I'll bite. My argument was always framed around soldier unlocks allowed versus scout unlocks banned.
1) If the blackbox is legal, so should the scout candy cane
2) The blackbox gives HP back upon hit and only has 1 less rocket (oh no, I have to wait for autoreload to do it's thing)
3) The candy can gives only 25Hp back and the scout needs to completely kill a player for that to happen, and he has to run over to the dead body to pick up the health vile (which anyone on any team can grab) AND he is 25% more vulnerable to damage from explosives with the weapon equipped
4) How is the blackbox legal when the candy-cane is banned?
The blackbox is a fine sidegrade... but it's "downside" is hilarious compared to the candy-canes downsides and yet the latter is banned and the former is not...
Might want to check the latest banlist: http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Competitive_item_restrictions ctrl + f candy cane
[quote=BLoodSire][quote=2sy_morphiend]Blood "-1 clip size is hardly a nerf for a rocket launcher" sire now the authority on the history of weapon balance in the competitive community. This thread has finally come full circle.[/quote]
I'll bite. My argument was always framed around soldier unlocks allowed versus scout unlocks banned.
1) If the blackbox is legal, so should the scout candy cane
2) The blackbox gives HP back upon hit and only has 1 less rocket (oh no, I have to wait for autoreload to do it's thing)
3) The candy can gives only 25Hp back [b]and[/b] the scout needs to completely kill a player for that to happen, [b]and[/b] he has to run over to the dead body to pick up the health vile (which anyone on any team can grab) [b]AND[/b] he is 25% more vulnerable to damage from explosives with the weapon equipped
4) How is the blackbox legal when the candy-cane is banned?
The blackbox is a fine sidegrade... but it's "downside" is hilarious compared to the candy-canes downsides and yet the latter is banned and the former is not...[/quote]
Might want to check the latest banlist: http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Competitive_item_restrictions ctrl + f candy cane
Let's pls not split a single debate into two threads like that, regardless of topicality. It's just going to be confusing.
Let's pls not split a single debate into two threads like that, regardless of topicality. It's just going to be confusing.
ScorpiouprisingMight want to check the latest banlist: http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Competitive_item_restrictions ctrl + f candy cane
Might want to get a banlist from when he said it.
[quote=Scorpiouprising]
Might want to check the latest banlist: http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Competitive_item_restrictions ctrl + f candy cane[/quote]
Might want to get a banlist from when he said it.
wareyaScorpiouprisingMight want to check the latest banlist: http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Competitive_item_restrictions ctrl + f candy cane
Might want to get a banlist from when he said it.
Today? If he is referring to the past, then yah it was banned at some point, but now it isn't progress in motion.
[quote=wareya][quote=Scorpiouprising]
Might want to check the latest banlist: http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Competitive_item_restrictions ctrl + f candy cane[/quote]
Might want to get a banlist from when he said it.[/quote]
Today? If he is referring to the past, then yah it was banned at some point, but now it isn't progress in motion.
while I will admit I did not know it was no longer banned, I will also admit when I made my argument it was banned...but anyhow that really has nothing to do with anything, I just wanted to set the record straight with 2sy who gets all tingly trying to undermine me
while I will admit I did not know it was no longer banned, I will also admit when I made my argument it was banned...but anyhow that really has nothing to do with anything, I just wanted to set the record straight with 2sy who gets all tingly trying to undermine me
ScorpiouprisingToday? If he is referring to the past, then yah it was banned at some point, but now it isn't progress in motion.
Considering that he was literally reiterating an old argument, yes he was referring to the past.
[quote=Scorpiouprising]
Today? If he is referring to the past, then yah it was banned at some point, but now it isn't progress in motion.[/quote]
Considering that he was literally reiterating an old argument, yes he was referring to the past.
Then how is your opinion on weapon balance at all relevant if you think that weapon bans should be based on the politics of "If one class has this, why don't we get this", ignoring class roles and relative strength? Personally I have never given a shit about the candy cane because getting one-shot by explosive classes has always made it fairly obvious that no scout would seriously use it, but that would be ignoring the fact that the community has for the most part adopted the notion that "If it's fucking useless then who gives a shit if we ban it?"
Your "history of the GRU and heavy in competitive play" left out the massive buffs that heavy received as well as meta-game shifts and the introduction of the equalizer and gunboats that made it possible for soldiers to even be aggressive at mids. Or have crate to crate spam wars really vanished from all memory?
BLoodSirewhile I will admit I did not know it was no longer banned, I will also admit when I made my argument it was banned...but anyhow that really has nothing to do with anything, I just wanted to set the record straight with 2sy who gets all tingly trying to undermine me
Don't worry, nobody will disagree with you by virtue of your green name and that most of the community didn't spend hours reading your nerd essays on gotfrag about how soldier was the most broken class in the game. By the way, the machina was banned because it made it impossible to cover a medic at choke-points forcing medics to pop early or get bodyshot no matter what. I don't think anybody ever really gave a shit about "lowering the average dps" of sniper since that's not exactly the point of the class now is it
Then how is your opinion on weapon balance at all relevant if you think that weapon bans should be based on the politics of "If one class has this, why don't we get this", ignoring class roles and relative strength? Personally I have never given a shit about the candy cane because getting one-shot by explosive classes has always made it fairly obvious that no scout would seriously use it, but that would be ignoring the fact that the community has for the most part adopted the notion that "If it's fucking useless then who gives a shit if we ban it?"
Your "history of the GRU and heavy in competitive play" left out the massive buffs that heavy received as well as meta-game shifts and the introduction of the equalizer and gunboats that made it possible for soldiers to even be aggressive at mids. Or have crate to crate spam wars really vanished from all memory?
[quote=BLoodSire]while I will admit I did not know it was no longer banned, I will also admit when I made my argument it was banned...but anyhow that really has nothing to do with anything, I just wanted to set the record straight with 2sy who gets all tingly trying to undermine me[/quote]
Don't worry, nobody will disagree with you by virtue of your green name and that most of the community didn't spend hours reading your nerd essays on gotfrag about how soldier was the most broken class in the game. By the way, the machina was banned because it made it impossible to cover a medic at choke-points forcing medics to pop early or get bodyshot no matter what. I don't think anybody ever really gave a shit about "lowering the average dps" of sniper since [i]that's not exactly the point of the class now is it[/i]
this thread is blowin up. keep kicking around ideas.
I just filmed a vlog Luc will be polishing up and posting later today. 15 min long, get into a few other things I talked to Valve about. Oh yeah, Granary symmetry. didn't mention it in the video but I pointed that out to a few Valvers. thanks mackey.
this thread is blowin up. keep kicking around ideas.
I just filmed a vlog Luc will be polishing up and posting later today. 15 min long, get into a few other things I talked to Valve about. Oh yeah, Granary symmetry. didn't mention it in the video but I pointed that out to a few Valvers. thanks mackey.
I think some people need to separate 6s and HL for a second. Lets look at both.
6s: Skill based, uses 4/9 classes, few unlocks
HL: All classes, lots of unlocks.
HL sounds more like a pub and thats the point. When i first played this game if I would have played 6s of course I would have no idea what to do. HL is a logical step because that person goes "oh i play spy a lot i know what spy kind of does, ill do that". This makes it easy for pubbers to join competitive tf2. Don't complain.
As for unlocks, as much as we have tested them, I see why valve wants their own data. I wouldn't trust anyone to tell me something is really unfair unless I saw it for myself.
Also the whole metagame isn't so much that 6s is boring to watch. If you look at this from the standpoint of valve, they want people to watch tf2, play tf2, and spend money on tf2. If you balance unlocks so that they are on an even playing field, that sounds amazing. Suddenly HL is full of new strategies and weapons you haven't seen before. That doesn't sound great to a player but it sure sounds like it would make an amazing match to watch
I think some people need to separate 6s and HL for a second. Lets look at both.
6s: Skill based, uses 4/9 classes, few unlocks
HL: All classes, lots of unlocks.
HL sounds more like a pub and thats the point. When i first played this game if I would have played 6s of course I would have no idea what to do. HL is a logical step because that person goes "oh i play spy a lot i know what spy kind of does, ill do that". This makes it easy for pubbers to join competitive tf2. Don't complain.
As for unlocks, as much as we have tested them, I see why valve wants their own data. I wouldn't trust anyone to tell me something is really unfair unless I saw it for myself.
Also the whole metagame isn't so much that 6s is boring to watch. If you look at this from the standpoint of valve, they want people to watch tf2, play tf2, and spend money on tf2. If you balance unlocks so that they are on an even playing field, that sounds amazing. Suddenly HL is full of new strategies and weapons you haven't seen before. That doesn't sound great to a player but it sure sounds like it would make an amazing match to watch
Another idea that I'd suggest is a "surrender" option similar to that in LoL. Where if the majority of a team can vote to just end the pug if it's a roll. I think this could help with ragequits.
Also, if someone rage quits, don't let them add up to another pug until the one they quit from is over. But give the option to rejoin that same pug if it was an unexpected crash.
Another idea that I'd suggest is a "surrender" option similar to that in LoL. Where if the majority of a team can vote to just end the pug if it's a roll. I think this could help with ragequits.
Also, if someone rage quits, don't let them add up to another pug until the one they quit from is over. But give the option to rejoin that same pug if it was an unexpected crash.
#381 so scathing, it stings. Your have the wrong idea about many things and your attitude is unfortunate. I'm not going to get into a shouting match with you in this thread or any thread, but you can keep trying
#381 so scathing, it stings. Your have the wrong idea about many things and your attitude is unfortunate. I'm not going to get into a shouting match with you in this thread or any thread, but you can keep trying
BLoodSire#381 so scathing, it stings. Your have the wrong idea about many things and your attitude is unfortunate. I'm not going to get into a shouting match with you in this thread or any thread, but you can keep trying
I'm not trying to get into a shouting match, anybody that's been around long enough to not give a shit about your casting career is already well aware of your scout central bias. Unfortunately there's enough young, impressionable players now that they might think that you're actually even trying to be objective.
They also probably don't remember that you thought the sydney sleeper was balanced until oov shit on you with it.
[quote=BLoodSire]#381 so scathing, it stings. Your have the wrong idea about many things and your attitude is unfortunate. I'm not going to get into a shouting match with you in this thread or any thread, but you can keep trying[/quote]
I'm not trying to get into a shouting match, anybody that's been around long enough to not give a shit about your casting career is already well aware of your scout central bias. Unfortunately there's enough young, impressionable players now that they might think that you're actually even trying to be objective.
They also probably don't remember that you thought the sydney sleeper was balanced until oov shit on you with it.
Not directed to anyone as I skimmed a lot, but here's how I feel:
I do not care for the cons provided in this one, I just don't. I'm not a competitive player, but I'm still beyond interested. Not hyped at all, but if I was a longtime tf2 into competitive play, I would definitely be.
I don't know if I'm saying anything wrong here, but I just want to see this and everyone's ideas to spread like wildfire, just to lead to the joyous finale. :P
Not directed to anyone as I skimmed a lot, but here's how I feel:
I do not care for the cons provided in this one, I just don't. I'm not a competitive player, but I'm still beyond interested. Not hyped at all, but if I was a longtime tf2 into competitive play, I would definitely be.
I don't know if I'm saying anything wrong here, but I just want to see this and everyone's ideas to spread like wildfire, just to lead to the joyous finale. :P
2sy_morphiendBLoodSire#381 so scathing, it stings. Your have the wrong idea about many things and your attitude is unfortunate. I'm not going to get into a shouting match with you in this thread or any thread, but you can keep trying
I'm not trying to get into a shouting match, anybody that's been around long enough to not give a shit about your casting career is already well aware of your scout central bias. Unfortunately there's enough young, impressionable players now that they might think that you're actually even trying to be objective.
They also probably don't remember that you thought the sydney sleeper was balanced until oov shit on you with it.
I think you should get out of here and ramble over blood in PMs or something.
I don't want valve to read through this thread only to find those kinds of posts.
[quote=2sy_morphiend][quote=BLoodSire]#381 so scathing, it stings. Your have the wrong idea about many things and your attitude is unfortunate. I'm not going to get into a shouting match with you in this thread or any thread, but you can keep trying[/quote]
I'm not trying to get into a shouting match, anybody that's been around long enough to not give a shit about your casting career is already well aware of your scout central bias. Unfortunately there's enough young, impressionable players now that they might think that you're actually even trying to be objective.
They also probably don't remember that you thought the sydney sleeper was balanced until oov shit on you with it.[/quote]
I think you should get out of here and ramble over blood in PMs or something.
I don't want valve to read through this thread only to find those kinds of posts.
eXtine15 min long, get into a few other things I talked to Valve about. Oh yeah, Granary symmetry. didn't mention it in the video but I pointed that out to a few Valvers. thanks mackey.
Did you or Sal politely ask Valve to fix the STV HUD problems during a pause and the invisible players bug?
[quote=eXtine]15 min long, get into a few other things I talked to Valve about. Oh yeah, Granary symmetry. didn't mention it in the video but I pointed that out to a few Valvers. thanks mackey.[/quote]
Did you or Sal politely ask Valve to fix the STV HUD problems during a pause and the invisible players bug?
(And wall shadows while we're at it)
(And wall shadows while we're at it)