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Lange's thoughts on the state of competitive TF2
181
#181
-7 Frags +

yeah it was fun playing against you at GXL clock. i'll never forget dat airshot

yeah it was fun playing against you at GXL clock. i'll never forget dat airshot
182
#182
1 Frags +

I feel TF2 is gonna end up like cs 1.6 and source. You're just gonna eventually have a fairly small community that just plays the game because they love to. There won't be any lans or big prizes, people will just play for fun.

I feel TF2 is gonna end up like cs 1.6 and source. You're just gonna eventually have a fairly small community that just plays the game because they love to. There won't be any lans or big prizes, people will just play for fun.
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#183
-1 Frags +
also, no. First of all that's not our jobs to campaign competitive TF2. It's ridiculous. Secondly the 6s version of the game is very different from a pubbing perspective. I mean, maybe if we got the best marketers in the entire game to slave away at trying to sell this game, maybe it would grow a lot. But that's no one's responsibility and it's asking a lot. It certainly doesn't take 10 minutes to get people interested. And only 1 of those 3 would be sticking with it, anyway.

I honestly hate communicating via text of any kind because tone is lost, I wasn't implying that that there was absolutely zero people trying to spread the word i was saying that if people like you who sit here and take time to read this utter bullshit and instead spent that time introducing friends we would see a lot more growth than we have. When tf2 celebrities join pubs hundreds of people add them, what if you linked them to this forum or that guide made by sigma instead of ignoring the request? Obviously it's ridicoulous to ask any 1 person to advertise but we have like idk just a ball park estimate of 300 people that regularly participate in streams or on this forum? what if they took 5 minutes a day and used it to advertise?

TL:DR mad props to people like lange who try, but what if everybody who watched that video took the 5 min it took them to read this thread went and wrote a post on reddit or something?

after watching that buick video it seems the community is still growing so this thread is literally a waste of fucking time. LMAO

[quote]also, no. First of all that's not our jobs to campaign competitive TF2. It's ridiculous. Secondly the 6s version of the game is very different from a pubbing perspective. I mean, [i]maybe[/i] if we got the best marketers in the entire game to slave away at trying to sell this game, [i]maybe[/i] it would grow a lot. But that's no one's responsibility and it's asking a lot. It certainly doesn't take 10 minutes to get people interested. And only 1 of those 3 would be sticking with it, anyway.[/quote]

I honestly hate communicating via text of any kind because tone is lost, I wasn't implying that that there was absolutely zero people trying to spread the word i was saying that if people like you who sit here and take time to read this utter bullshit and instead spent that time introducing friends we would see a lot more growth than we have. When tf2 celebrities join pubs hundreds of people add them, what if you linked them to this forum or that guide made by sigma instead of ignoring the request? Obviously it's ridicoulous to ask any 1 person to advertise but we have like idk just a ball park estimate of 300 people that regularly participate in streams or on this forum? what if they took 5 minutes a day and used it to advertise?

TL:DR mad props to people like lange who try, but what if everybody who watched that video took the 5 min it took them to read this thread went and wrote a post on reddit or something?

after watching that buick video it seems the community is still growing so this thread is literally a waste of fucking time. LMAO
184
#184
1 Frags +
Saltysally1also, no. First of all that's not our jobs to campaign competitive TF2. It's ridiculous. Secondly the 6s version of the game is very different from a pubbing perspective. I mean, maybe if we got the best marketers in the entire game to slave away at trying to sell this game, maybe it would grow a lot. But that's no one's responsibility and it's asking a lot. It certainly doesn't take 10 minutes to get people interested. And only 1 of those 3 would be sticking with it, anyway.
I honestly hate communicating via text of any kind because tone is lost, I wasn't implying that that there was absolutely zero people trying to spread the word i was saying that if people like you who sit here and take time to read this utter bullshit and instead spent that time introducing friends we would see a lot more growth than we have. When tf2 celebrities join pubs hundreds of people add them, what if you linked them to this forum or that guide made by sigma instead of ignoring the request? Obviously it's ridicoulous to ask any 1 person to advertise but we have like idk just a ball park estimate of 300 people that regularly participate in streams or on this forum? what if they took 5 minutes a day and used it to advertise?

TL:DR mad props to people like lange who try, but what if everybody who watched that video took the 5 min it took them to read this thread went and wrote a post on reddit or something?

I've never really agreed with this viewpoint, people who are interested in competing at tf2 will usually naturally find their way into 6s or highlander at some point. People act like all the pubbers in tf2 are just sitting in their nearest mario kart server saying "Man I wish this game wasn't so random, that it had some structure and that I could play it in a format that was fair and balanced!" when actually most of them are probably thinking "That dude has a flaming gibbous fucking rad!".

Yeah maybe some people who would appreciate it don't find comp tf2 but I highly doubt its even like .1% of the pubber base. The rest either don't care about playing in leagues, aren't passionate enough about the actual game, aren't competitive, whatever. Also just advertising wouldn't be enough you'd also have to create an easy to access non-cancer place for newbs to have fun playing without better players stomping them and calling them shit all game (newb mixes are cool but not nearly as accessible as any of the alternatives).

Fact of the matter is if a person isn't interested enough to spend 5 seconds googling "tf2 competitive" then they probably either aren't very interested in competitive gaming in general or aren't specifically interested in tf2 comp. I get that 6s is different from pubs but everyone who plays tf2 competitively fell in love with the game in pubs and then found comp whether it be from a friend or whatever.

[quote=Saltysally1][quote]also, no. First of all that's not our jobs to campaign competitive TF2. It's ridiculous. Secondly the 6s version of the game is very different from a pubbing perspective. I mean, [i]maybe[/i] if we got the best marketers in the entire game to slave away at trying to sell this game, [i]maybe[/i] it would grow a lot. But that's no one's responsibility and it's asking a lot. It certainly doesn't take 10 minutes to get people interested. And only 1 of those 3 would be sticking with it, anyway.[/quote]

I honestly hate communicating via text of any kind because tone is lost, I wasn't implying that that there was absolutely zero people trying to spread the word i was saying that if people like you who sit here and take time to read this utter bullshit and instead spent that time introducing friends we would see a lot more growth than we have. When tf2 celebrities join pubs hundreds of people add them, what if you linked them to this forum or that guide made by sigma instead of ignoring the request? Obviously it's ridicoulous to ask any 1 person to advertise but we have like idk just a ball park estimate of 300 people that regularly participate in streams or on this forum? what if they took 5 minutes a day and used it to advertise?

TL:DR mad props to people like lange who try, but what if everybody who watched that video took the 5 min it took them to read this thread went and wrote a post on reddit or something?[/quote]

I've never really agreed with this viewpoint, people who are interested in competing at tf2 will usually naturally find their way into 6s or highlander at some point. People act like all the pubbers in tf2 are just sitting in their nearest mario kart server saying "Man I wish this game wasn't so random, that it had some structure and that I could play it in a format that was fair and balanced!" when actually most of them are probably thinking "That dude has a flaming gibbous fucking rad!".

Yeah maybe some people who would appreciate it don't find comp tf2 but I highly doubt its even like .1% of the pubber base. The rest either don't care about playing in leagues, aren't passionate enough about the actual game, aren't competitive, whatever. Also just advertising wouldn't be enough you'd also have to create an easy to access non-cancer place for newbs to have fun playing without better players stomping them and calling them shit all game (newb mixes are cool but not nearly as accessible as any of the alternatives).

Fact of the matter is if a person isn't interested enough to spend 5 seconds googling "tf2 competitive" then they probably either aren't very interested in competitive gaming in general or aren't specifically interested in tf2 comp. I get that 6s is different from pubs but everyone who plays tf2 competitively fell in love with the game in pubs and then found comp whether it be from a friend or whatever.
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#185
0 Frags +
Saltysally1

I don't want to be the Jehovah's witness or Mormon of TF2, and I don't like the aspect of actively recruiting people to play 6v6. I don't mind advertising big events, but just generic competitive TF2? That's just desperate. The big games have these huge events, often sponsored by the company that made the game (see LoL, CS:GO, Dota2, HoN, SF, etc). Big events are the things I feel that bring people into a game. Unless you're like SSB where you have way more casual players into the mix and is easy to spectate, you won't be able to host the events that bring people in. Plus this is around the time between Melee and Brawl where you'd normally end up with a CS:S situation that honestly keeps the community at large a bit bigger, even if splintered.

That's why I see TF2 6's will shrink to the small leagues. Highlander is probably going to fine for now though so I guess there's always that competitive part of TF2 (and honestly feels supported by valve much more).

[quote=Saltysally1][/quote]
I don't want to be the Jehovah's witness or Mormon of TF2, and I don't like the aspect of actively recruiting people to play 6v6. I don't mind advertising big events, but just generic competitive TF2? That's just desperate. The big games have these huge events, often sponsored by the company that made the game (see LoL, CS:GO, Dota2, HoN, SF, etc). Big events are the things I feel that bring people into a game. Unless you're like SSB where you have way more casual players into the mix and is easy to spectate, you won't be able to host the events that bring people in. Plus this is around the time between Melee and Brawl where you'd normally end up with a CS:S situation that honestly keeps the community at large a bit bigger, even if splintered.

That's why I see TF2 6's will shrink to the small leagues. Highlander is probably going to fine for now though so I guess there's always that competitive part of TF2 (and honestly feels supported by valve much more).
186
#186
-3 Frags +
brownymasterSaltysally1I don't want to be the Jehovah's witness or Mormon of TF2, and I don't like the aspect of actively recruiting people to play 6v6. I don't mind advertising big events, but just generic competitive TF2? That's just desperate. The big games have these huge events, often sponsored by the company that made the game (see LoL, CS:GO, Dota2, HoN, SF, etc). Big events are the things I feel that bring people into a game. Unless you're like SSB where you have way more casual players into the mix and is easy to spectate, you won't be able to host the events that bring people in. Plus this is around the time between Melee and Brawl where you'd normally end up with a CS:S situation that honestly keeps the community at large a bit bigger, even if splintered.

That's why I see TF2 6's will shrink to the small leagues. Highlander is probably going to fine for now though so I guess there's always that competitive part of TF2 (and honestly feels supported by valve much more).

In a lot of ways i agree that we shouldn't be personally advertising but if you get down to technicalities what does valve do for every TI in dota? they reach out and put up ads in the game with the compendiums and shit. If we think of our community as just that then we aren't advertising personally but rather advertising for the community. We have to be our own valve because the real valve doesn't care to back us. there is a thread on reddit for pretty much every match between rival teams or when two really good teams play in games like dota and cs go, where is ours? Its not on reddit it's here where people that don't know about this site can't see it.

[quote=brownymaster][quote=Saltysally1][/quote]
I don't want to be the Jehovah's witness or Mormon of TF2, and I don't like the aspect of actively recruiting people to play 6v6. I don't mind advertising big events, but just generic competitive TF2? That's just desperate. The big games have these huge events, often sponsored by the company that made the game (see LoL, CS:GO, Dota2, HoN, SF, etc). Big events are the things I feel that bring people into a game. Unless you're like SSB where you have way more casual players into the mix and is easy to spectate, you won't be able to host the events that bring people in. Plus this is around the time between Melee and Brawl where you'd normally end up with a CS:S situation that honestly keeps the community at large a bit bigger, even if splintered.

That's why I see TF2 6's will shrink to the small leagues. Highlander is probably going to fine for now though so I guess there's always that competitive part of TF2 (and honestly feels supported by valve much more).[/quote]

In a lot of ways i agree that we shouldn't be personally advertising but if you get down to technicalities what does valve do for every TI in dota? they reach out and put up ads in the game with the compendiums and shit. If we think of our community as just that then we aren't advertising personally but rather advertising for the community. We have to be our own valve because the real valve doesn't care to back us. there is a thread on reddit for pretty much every match between rival teams or when two really good teams play in games like dota and cs go, where is ours? Its not on reddit it's here where people that don't know about this site can't see it.
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#187
0 Frags +
Saltysally1We have to be our own valve because the real valve doesn't care to back us.

And that's basically why TF2's probably not going to grow. The people who can affect the community the most more than likely have jobs and other obligations. To each person, their time is valuable, and I don't see that time of the collective TF2 6's being enough to ever replace even a fraction of a percent of valve with their 3 billion net worth to help the game. I mean look at what Lange has done for the past few years and where we've ultimately ended up at; not very far from where we started 5 years ago. I don't want to stop anybody from trying because if they do have passion they should do it, but I don't think it's right to call people out on not doing it. I don't think you'll find anyone who's played since launch that's not disappointed at valve in some way and disillusioned with the scene.

[quote=Saltysally1]We have to be our own valve because the real valve doesn't care to back us.[/quote]
And that's basically why TF2's probably not going to grow. The people who can affect the community the most more than likely have jobs and other obligations. To each person, their time is valuable, and I don't see that time of the collective TF2 6's being enough to ever replace even a fraction of a percent of valve with their 3 billion net worth to help the game. I mean look at what Lange has done for the past few years and where we've ultimately ended up at; not very far from where we started 5 years ago. I don't want to stop anybody from trying because if they do have passion they should do it, but I don't think it's right to call people out on not doing it. I don't think you'll find anyone who's played since launch that's not disappointed at valve in some way and disillusioned with the scene.
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#188
6 Frags +
ChompsI've never really agreed with this viewpoint, people who are interested in competing at tf2 will usually naturally find their way into 6s or highlander at some point.

....

Fact of the matter is if a person isn't interested enough to spend 5 seconds googling "tf2 competitive" then they probably either aren't very interested in competitive gaming in general or aren't specifically interested in tf2 comp. I get that 6s is different from pubs but everyone who plays tf2 competitively fell in love with the game in pubs and then found comp whether it be from a friend or whatever.

I don't agree with this at all. I didn't know competive tf2 was a thing until some random dude in a trade server added me. He later realized I played sniper so he asked if I could play a UGC Steel match for him. I still play and love competitive tf2 to this day even though I had no idea it was a thing.

All I can say is from the perspective of a pubber/somebody who doesn't know about comp, it's not like you just know about competitive or wonder if it's a thing. At least a lot of my friends and I at the time didn't. In csgo, however, I'm pretty sure every single player that plays it knows comp csgo of some sense is a thing, given the implemented match making system and updates on the home page about competitive events.

[quote=Chomps]I've never really agreed with this viewpoint, people who are interested in competing at tf2 will usually naturally find their way into 6s or highlander at some point.

....

Fact of the matter is if a person isn't interested enough to spend 5 seconds googling "tf2 competitive" then they probably either aren't very interested in competitive gaming in general or aren't specifically interested in tf2 comp. I get that 6s is different from pubs but everyone who plays tf2 competitively fell in love with the game in pubs and then found comp whether it be from a friend or whatever.[/quote]

I don't agree with this at all. I didn't know competive tf2 was a thing until some random dude in a trade server added me. He later realized I played sniper so he asked if I could play a UGC Steel match for him. I still play and love competitive tf2 to this day even though I had no idea it was a thing.

All I can say is from the perspective of a pubber/somebody who doesn't know about comp, it's not like you just know about competitive or wonder if it's a thing. At least a lot of my friends and I at the time didn't. In csgo, however, I'm pretty sure every single player that plays it knows comp csgo of some sense is a thing, given the implemented match making system and updates on the home page about competitive events.
189
#189
0 Frags +
brownymasterThat's why I see TF2 6's will shrink to the small leagues. Highlander is probably going to fine for now though so I guess there's always that competitive part of TF2 (and honestly feels supported by valve much more).

Being a big Highlander player, I am not disappointed at the potential to strengthen the Highlander community and maybe have it taken more seriously. If this is what Valve wants to support, and we want any support at all, accept that fate and help build Highlander.

Sure, the chances of a Highlander LAN are low, but that doesn't stop us from having PUG teams at LANs, or even the core of HL teams coming together to play. With lots of luck, energy, and love, Highlander can succeed.

[quote=brownymaster]
That's why I see TF2 6's will shrink to the small leagues. Highlander is probably going to fine for now though so I guess there's always that competitive part of TF2 (and honestly feels supported by valve much more).[/quote]

Being a big Highlander player, I am not disappointed at the potential to strengthen the Highlander community and maybe have it taken more seriously. If this is what Valve wants to support, and we want any support at all, accept that fate and help build Highlander.

Sure, the chances of a Highlander LAN are low, but that doesn't stop us from having PUG teams at LANs, or even the core of HL teams coming together to play. With lots of luck, energy, and love, Highlander can succeed.
190
#190
1 Frags +
lucrativeThis isn't gonna be a post really reflecting on everything in the thread, but if people actually think esea will drop tf2 even with a lesser amount of players you're kidding youself lol they make great revenue off tf2 despite the lower number of players, they barely even pay attention to tf2 and they make money from it.

Assuming 7 people paid up on a roster.

S17 Open: 38 teams * 7 players * ($10 league fee + 3*$7 premium per player) = $8246
S17 IM: 16 teams * 7 players * ($20 league fee + 3*$7 premium per player) = $4592
S17 Invite: 9 teams * 7 players * $60 league fee (free premium for Invite) = $3780

Total revenue (not profit) from TF2 players: $16,618
TF2 prize pot for S17: $16,880
Profit: $-262

Since sponsors probably cover the deficit, ESEA may not be losing money on TF2 based on this model. But even assuming 7 paid players on a roster and everyone pays for 3 months of premium (in reality, most teams will only have 6 paid throughout the season and not everyone will pay for 3 months of premium), they're not really making money off of us. If they dropped TF2, they would just allocate all sponsorship money going into TF2 to CSGO. They really have nothing to lose if they drop us if we keep pulling these kinds of numbers.

[quote=lucrative]This isn't gonna be a post really reflecting on everything in the thread, but if people actually think esea will drop tf2 even with a lesser amount of players you're kidding youself lol they make great revenue off tf2 despite the lower number of players, they barely even pay attention to tf2 and they make money from it.[/quote]

Assuming 7 people paid up on a roster.

S17 Open: 38 teams * 7 players * ($10 league fee + 3*$7 premium per player) = $8246
S17 IM: 16 teams * 7 players * ($20 league fee + 3*$7 premium per player) = $4592
S17 Invite: 9 teams * 7 players * $60 league fee (free premium for Invite) = $3780

Total revenue (not profit) from TF2 players: $16,618
TF2 prize pot for S17: $16,880
Profit: $-262

Since sponsors probably cover the deficit, ESEA may not be losing money on TF2 based on this model. But even assuming 7 paid players on a roster and everyone pays for 3 months of premium (in reality, most teams will only have 6 paid throughout the season and not everyone will pay for 3 months of premium), they're not really making money off of us. If they dropped TF2, they would just allocate all sponsorship money going into TF2 to CSGO. They really have nothing to lose if they drop us if we keep pulling these kinds of numbers.
191
#191
1 Frags +
Saltysally1I honestly hate communicating via text of any kind because tone is lost, I wasn't implying that that there was absolutely zero people trying to spread the word i was saying that if people like you who sit here and take time to read this utter bullshit and instead spent that time introducing friends we would see a lot more growth than we have. When tf2 celebrities join pubs hundreds of people add them, what if you linked them to this forum or that guide made by sigma instead of ignoring the request? Obviously it's ridicoulous to ask any 1 person to advertise but we have like idk just a ball park estimate of 300 people that regularly participate in streams or on this forum? what if they took 5 minutes a day and used it to advertise?

TL:DR mad props to people like lange who try, but what if everybody who watched that video took the 5 min it took them to read this thread went and wrote a post on reddit or something?

after watching that buick video it seems the community is still growing so this thread is literally a waste of fucking time. LMAO

It is alllll about money. Sure we can have 100+ people increase their efforts in marketing, just so they feel giddy about themselves. The two things that kill this approach is that it's not efficient and there's no monetary incentive. It would take Valve a few employees maybe a few days to accomplish what the few hundred people people sacrifice weekly. Everyone would eventually tire out (like Lange). Lange spent hours on the infrastructure of everything and thinks Valve fucked him over. He hit a breaking point where didn't think he was fairly rewarded for his time/energy spent on improving the tf2 experience. If the tf2 community raised $2,000 as payment to Lange for his efforts, would he feel different? Probably a bit, but this kind of work is considered charity so that'll never happen. Best case scenario is you get a shoutout like TrukTruk at the end of a match.

Competitive players are probably the most costliest players of any category. New users probably eclipse try hards/competitive players in the steam store purchases. New users are ignorant, it's a new game, they buy random shit, and have tons of fun with no complaints. Competitive players complain and plead Valve to make changes (costs them $$$), and probably don't buy much from the store at all. From a Valve business perspective: fuck competitive players, invest in new users. If you want to change that, time to work with Valve. If Valve commits to suggested changes by competitive players, idk say we'll play some Valve advertisements during i55. Another crazy example? Let's have Valve experience i55. We can raise money to send the topmost Valve tf2 guy to i55 and experience the international LAN setting. We can prob just pay for the flight/hotel, him the food and anything else. Pamper him up, have someone sleep with him (lulz), show him the beauty of 6s. Lobbying 101.

Even b4nny does it partly for money. He wouldn't be streaming as much if it weren't for paid subscribers. Thing is, he treats his subscribers like royalty and is friendly to viewers. He's literally a business tf2 player, and good for him because he loves it. But he's also looking to switch games to a larger user base... because money.

[quote=Saltysally1]I honestly hate communicating via text of any kind because tone is lost, I wasn't implying that that there was absolutely zero people trying to spread the word i was saying that if people like you who sit here and take time to read this utter bullshit and instead spent that time introducing friends we would see a lot more growth than we have. When tf2 celebrities join pubs hundreds of people add them, what if you linked them to this forum or that guide made by sigma instead of ignoring the request? Obviously it's ridicoulous to ask any 1 person to advertise but we have like idk just a ball park estimate of 300 people that regularly participate in streams or on this forum? what if they took 5 minutes a day and used it to advertise?

TL:DR mad props to people like lange who try, but what if everybody who watched that video took the 5 min it took them to read this thread went and wrote a post on reddit or something?

after watching that buick video it seems the community is still growing so this thread is literally a waste of fucking time. LMAO[/quote]

It is alllll about money. Sure we can have 100+ people increase their efforts in marketing, just so they feel giddy about themselves. The two things that kill this approach is that it's not efficient and there's no monetary incentive. It would take Valve a few employees maybe a few days to accomplish what the few hundred people people sacrifice weekly. Everyone would eventually tire out (like Lange). Lange spent hours on the infrastructure of everything and thinks Valve fucked him over. He hit a breaking point where didn't think he was fairly rewarded for his time/energy spent on improving the tf2 experience. If the tf2 community raised $2,000 as payment to Lange for his efforts, would he feel different? Probably a bit, but this kind of work is considered charity so that'll never happen. Best case scenario is you get a shoutout like TrukTruk at the end of a match.

Competitive players are probably the most costliest players of any category. New users probably eclipse try hards/competitive players in the steam store purchases. New users are ignorant, it's a new game, they buy random shit, and have tons of fun with no complaints. Competitive players complain and plead Valve to make changes (costs them $$$), and probably don't buy much from the store at all. From a Valve business perspective: fuck competitive players, invest in new users. If you want to change that, time to work with Valve. If Valve commits to suggested changes by competitive players, idk say we'll play some Valve advertisements during i55. Another crazy example? Let's have Valve experience i55. We can raise money to send the topmost Valve tf2 guy to i55 and experience the international LAN setting. We can prob just pay for the flight/hotel, him the food and anything else. Pamper him up, have someone sleep with him (lulz), show him the beauty of 6s. Lobbying 101.

Even b4nny does it partly for money. He wouldn't be streaming as much if it weren't for paid subscribers. Thing is, he treats his subscribers like royalty and is friendly to viewers. He's literally a business tf2 player, and good for him because he loves it. But he's also looking to switch games to a larger user base... because money.
192
#192
0 Frags +
CorsaChompsI've never really agreed with this viewpoint, people who are interested in competing at tf2 will usually naturally find their way into 6s or highlander at some point.

....

Fact of the matter is if a person isn't interested enough to spend 5 seconds googling "tf2 competitive" then they probably either aren't very interested in competitive gaming in general or aren't specifically interested in tf2 comp. I get that 6s is different from pubs but everyone who plays tf2 competitively fell in love with the game in pubs and then found comp whether it be from a friend or whatever.

I don't agree with this at all. I didn't know competive tf2 was a thing until some random dude in a trade server added me. He later realized I played sniper so he asked if I could play a UGC Steel match for him. I still play and love competitive tf2 to this day even though I had no idea it was a thing.

All I can say is from the perspective of a pubber/somebody who doesn't know about comp, it's not like you just know about competitive or wonder if it's a thing. At least a lot of my friends and I at the time didn't. In csgo, however, I'm pretty sure every single player that plays it knows comp csgo of some sense is a thing, given the implemented match making system and updates on the home page about competitive events.

My point was that if you like the game and play decently often you will eventually find out about competitive and probably wanna play it. I hop in pubs and see people talk about esea/ugc/cevo highlander 6s all the time, and you and I are both clearly examples of how you will find out about competitive play if you are interested in the game. It wasn't that somehow people are imbued with the knowledge of 6's, although I guess I worded that a little oddly so yeah. I also wasn't saying don't tell people about competitive, I was just saying that I think going into random pubs and literally advertising competitive isn't going to make people any less or more likely to join since eventually if you play the game long enough and you dont have chat disabled and steam friends turned off you almost definitely will find out about competitive play. We may be a small community but we're a pretty loud one and we're not so small that its uncommon to find competitive players in servers lol.

EDIT: I was introduced to competitive through a pub community, and i'd wager that pub communities are only more knowledgable about that sorta thing with the prevalence of highlander. I guess my point is that I dont think that its a very substantial percentage of the community that would love to play competitive 6s but just doesn't know about it, its much more likely that people know about it even if they only know that it exists but aren't interested for whatever reason. I'm also not saying that there dont exist people who would like 6s or hl but don't know about it, juts that the percentage of those people is pretty low. Unless you play for like a week and then decide you dont like the game or whatever and never really get interested in the game for the SPECIFIC REASONS that would make competitive play ideal to you, chances are you will find out about competitive through friends or communities or shit even a valve post about highlander or whatever. I just think that people overestimate the number of people who want comp and dont know about it and underestimate the number of people that could give less of a shit about competitive and just want to trade sparkly hats.

[quote=Corsa][quote=Chomps]I've never really agreed with this viewpoint, people who are interested in competing at tf2 will usually naturally find their way into 6s or highlander at some point.

....

Fact of the matter is if a person isn't interested enough to spend 5 seconds googling "tf2 competitive" then they probably either aren't very interested in competitive gaming in general or aren't specifically interested in tf2 comp. I get that 6s is different from pubs but everyone who plays tf2 competitively fell in love with the game in pubs and then found comp whether it be from a friend or whatever.[/quote]

I don't agree with this at all. I didn't know competive tf2 was a thing until some random dude in a trade server added me. He later realized I played sniper so he asked if I could play a UGC Steel match for him. I still play and love competitive tf2 to this day even though I had no idea it was a thing.

All I can say is from the perspective of a pubber/somebody who doesn't know about comp, it's not like you just know about competitive or wonder if it's a thing. At least a lot of my friends and I at the time didn't. In csgo, however, I'm pretty sure every single player that plays it knows comp csgo of some sense is a thing, given the implemented match making system and updates on the home page about competitive events.[/quote]

My point was that if you like the game and play decently often you will eventually find out about competitive and probably wanna play it. I hop in pubs and see people talk about esea/ugc/cevo highlander 6s all the time, and you and I are both clearly examples of how you will find out about competitive play if you are interested in the game. It wasn't that somehow people are imbued with the knowledge of 6's, although I guess I worded that a little oddly so yeah. I also wasn't saying don't tell people about competitive, I was just saying that I think going into random pubs and literally advertising competitive isn't going to make people any less or more likely to join since eventually if you play the game long enough and you dont have chat disabled and steam friends turned off you almost definitely will find out about competitive play. We may be a small community but we're a pretty loud one and we're not so small that its uncommon to find competitive players in servers lol.

EDIT: I was introduced to competitive through a pub community, and i'd wager that pub communities are only more knowledgable about that sorta thing with the prevalence of highlander. I guess my point is that I dont think that its a very substantial percentage of the community that would love to play competitive 6s but just doesn't know about it, its much more likely that people know about it even if they only know that it exists but aren't interested for whatever reason. I'm also not saying that there dont exist people who would like 6s or hl but don't know about it, juts that the percentage of those people is pretty low. Unless you play for like a week and then decide you dont like the game or whatever and never really get interested in the game for the SPECIFIC REASONS that would make competitive play ideal to you, chances are you will find out about competitive through friends or communities or shit even a valve post about highlander or whatever. I just think that people overestimate the number of people who want comp and dont know about it and underestimate the number of people that could give less of a shit about competitive and just want to trade sparkly hats.
193
#193
-3 Frags +
OrangecakevibhavpEven if we dont make it to the mega-grand stage of esports, the fact that, as Lange himself said in the GXL outro video: Lange we can unite over the fact that we love this game and the community so much that we're willing to spend our own resources *just to share it with people*, maybe that's enough. And as long as we continue to do it, competitive TF2 will go a loooong way. Im pretty sure 2015 will be a bigger blast, so if anyone thinks they're done with the game, you're going to miss something really good :D
The GXL outro video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3c2b6KRyHE, Lange's part starts at 5:18.

Threw this together when I saw the vid the first time, feel like it's pretty relevant now.

http://i.imgur.com/5M1qS08.png

It's actually "compensated" instead of "coveted", but yeah, awesome work there :)

[quote=Orangecake][quote=vibhavp]Even if we dont make it to the mega-grand stage of esports, the fact that, as Lange himself said in the GXL outro video: [quote=Lange] we can unite over the fact that we love this game and the community so much that we're willing to spend our own resources *just to share it with people*, maybe that's enough. [/quote]
And as long as we continue to do it, competitive TF2 will go a loooong way. Im pretty sure 2015 will be a bigger blast, so if anyone thinks they're done with the game, you're going to miss something really good :D
The GXL outro video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3c2b6KRyHE, Lange's part starts at 5:18.[/quote]

Threw this together when I saw the vid the first time, feel like it's pretty relevant now.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/5M1qS08.png[/img][/quote]

It's actually "compensated" instead of "coveted", but yeah, awesome work there :)
194
#194
5 Frags +

http://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/2oxg4t/counterstrike_global_offensive_update_for_121014/

These are the kinds of updates CS:GO gets.

http://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/2oxg4t/counterstrike_global_offensive_update_for_121014/

These are the kinds of updates CS:GO gets.
195
#195
1 Frags +

to be fair that cz nerf is kind of overkill
theyve been buffing the other pistols trying to make them as good as cz and then they just SLAM the cz into the ground
valve is not very good at balancing

to be fair that cz nerf is kind of overkill
theyve been buffing the other pistols trying to make them as good as cz and then they just SLAM the cz into the ground
valve is not very good at balancing
196
#196
0 Frags +
Radmanhttp://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/2oxg4t/counterstrike_global_offensive_update_for_121014/

These are the kinds of updates CS:GO gets.

wow dota stickers?

[quote=Radman]http://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/2oxg4t/counterstrike_global_offensive_update_for_121014/

These are the kinds of updates CS:GO gets.[/quote]
wow dota stickers?
197
#197
7 Frags +
downpourto be fair that cz nerf is kind of overkill
theyve been buffing the other pistols trying to make them as good as cz and then they just SLAM the cz into the ground
valve is not very good at balancing

Good, the cz deserved to die.

[quote=downpour]to be fair that cz nerf is kind of overkill
theyve been buffing the other pistols trying to make them as good as cz and then they just SLAM the cz into the ground
valve is not very good at balancing[/quote]
Good, the cz deserved to die.
198
#198
5 Frags +

Sorry for a post 7 pages in that is solely reflecting on the original YouTube link, but that's what I'm doing.

Having been one of these guys that poured a great deal into competitive TF2 and then burned out, I'm sorry to see others reach that point. I'll be the first to say what I did in TF2's youth is dwarfed to the nth degree by what Lange (and eXtine, and enigma, and so many more) have done and continue to do - but for whatever my small role was, it still sucks to see others push so hard for something and eventually come to realize it's not going to be what you wanted, as I did.

TF2 will never be what Dota 2 is, or what even CS:GO is, or SC2, and so on. More than anything, I feel like TF2 was a victim of the times... so many companies had much greater budgets for the niche PR market that is competitive video games pre-2008 (ie. the recession), and had this game existed in 2003, who knows... maybe a CPL TF2 tournament (or whatever the equivalence) could have existed. But it's not to be.

Who knows what the landscape will be when TF3 rolls around (which, knowing video game company's propensity for sequels, is bound to happen), but Lange's view on what Team Fortress is in its current incarnation is right on the money. And that's a hard pill to swallow.

Pre-flame edit: And yes I realized most people posting here have no clue who the fuck I anymore, and I will quietly disappear again.

Sorry for a post 7 pages in that is solely reflecting on the original YouTube link, but that's what I'm doing.

Having been one of these guys that poured a great deal into competitive TF2 and then burned out, I'm sorry to see others reach that point. I'll be the first to say what I did in TF2's youth is dwarfed to the nth degree by what Lange (and eXtine, and enigma, and so many more) have done and continue to do - but for whatever my small role was, it still sucks to see others push so hard for something and eventually come to realize it's not going to be what you wanted, as I did.

TF2 will never be what Dota 2 is, or what even CS:GO is, or SC2, and so on. More than anything, I feel like TF2 was a victim of the times... so many companies had much greater budgets for the niche PR market that is competitive video games pre-2008 (ie. the recession), and had this game existed in 2003, who knows... maybe a CPL TF2 tournament (or whatever the equivalence) could have existed. But it's not to be.

Who knows what the landscape will be when TF3 rolls around (which, knowing video game company's propensity for sequels, is bound to happen), but Lange's view on what Team Fortress is in its current incarnation is right on the money. And that's a hard pill to swallow.

Pre-flame edit: And yes I realized most people posting here have no clue who the fuck I anymore, and I will quietly disappear again.
199
#199
5 Frags +
WormsWhy was this not an open letter to begin with?

Fear of a community backlash.

[quote=Worms]Why was this not an open letter to begin with?[/quote]
Fear of a community backlash.
200
#200
-5 Frags +
GentlemanJonWormsWhy was this not an open letter to begin with?Fear of a community backlash.

Which makes no sense because it voices exactly the community concerns and aspirations.

I would get the "we don't wanna put them in a tough spot" excuse, because it comes off kinda in a "take it or leave it" tone. but I dont really get that first excuse.

[quote=GentlemanJon][quote=Worms]Why was this not an open letter to begin with?[/quote]
Fear of a community backlash.[/quote]
Which makes no sense because it voices exactly the community concerns and aspirations.

I would get the "we don't wanna put them in a tough spot" excuse, because it comes off kinda in a "take it or leave it" tone. but I dont really get that first excuse.
201
#201
3 Frags +
KanecoWhich makes no sense because it voices exactly the community concerns and aspirations.

I would get the "we don't wanna put them in a tough spot" excuse, because it comes off kinda in a "take it or leave it" tone. but I dont really get that first excuse.

The reaction from various people who signed or didn't want to sign was presumably enough to convince the decision makers otherwise.

[quote=Kaneco]Which makes no sense because it voices exactly the community concerns and aspirations.

I would get the "we don't wanna put them in a tough spot" excuse, because it comes off kinda in a "take it or leave it" tone. but I dont really get that first excuse.[/quote]
The reaction from various people who signed or didn't want to sign was presumably enough to convince the decision makers otherwise.
202
#202
1 Frags +
GentlemanJonKanecoWhich makes no sense because it voices exactly the community concerns and aspirations.

I would get the "we don't wanna put them in a tough spot" excuse, because it comes off kinda in a "take it or leave it" tone. but I dont really get that first excuse.
The reaction from various people who signed or didn't want to sign was presumably enough to convince the decision makers otherwise.

I didn't get to see any bad reactions from the people asked, actually I think virtually everyone active in the community was represented there, save for some exceptions.

What would be the reasons to sign a letter like that and then not want it to be public? It's a fact based re-tell of a story we know all too well.

When I signed it I was under the impression it was gonna be an open letter, actually, that was one of the main reasons I signed it for, because if it didn't create any fuss around it I knew it wouldn't really be effective or even worth doing, I even offered to "advertise" it on our site/youtube channel when and if they decided to make it public, but that never happened obviously

[quote=GentlemanJon][quote=Kaneco]Which makes no sense because it voices exactly the community concerns and aspirations.

I would get the "we don't wanna put them in a tough spot" excuse, because it comes off kinda in a "take it or leave it" tone. but I dont really get that first excuse.[/quote]
The reaction from various people who signed or didn't want to sign was presumably enough to convince the decision makers otherwise.[/quote]
I didn't get to see any bad reactions from the people asked, actually I think virtually everyone active in the community was represented there, save for some exceptions.

What would be the reasons to sign a letter like that and then not want it to be public? It's a fact based re-tell of a story we know all too well.

When I signed it I was under the impression it was gonna be an open letter, actually, that was one of the main reasons I signed it for, because if it didn't create any fuss around it I knew it wouldn't really be effective or even worth doing, I even offered to "advertise" it on our site/youtube channel when and if they decided to make it public, but that never happened obviously
203
#203
0 Frags +

There wasn't anything too backslash really, we didn't even say what did we want to achieve with this discussion as far as I remember, so there was no room for disagreement. Anyone who was asked to sign this should just feel honoured and do it.

There wasn't anything too backslash really, we didn't even say what did we want to achieve with this discussion as far as I remember, so there was no room for disagreement. Anyone who was asked to sign this should just feel honoured and do it.
204
#204
5 Frags +

If not a backlash (which I think is a valid concern) then also the additional risks of it being pushed off course, dilution of the message and loss of control of the agenda were concerns. Once it's public property then it's also fair game for everyone which would cause significant problems maintaining the focus of the project.

I don't think publishing is out of the question forever (particularly if met with apathy by Valve), I would say it's just a decision taken at a certain time for reasons of expediency to try to ensure a consistent message and focus.

If not a backlash (which I think is a valid concern) then also the additional risks of it being pushed off course, dilution of the message and loss of control of the agenda were concerns. Once it's public property then it's also fair game for everyone which would cause significant problems maintaining the focus of the project.

I don't think publishing is out of the question forever (particularly if met with apathy by Valve), I would say it's just a decision taken at a certain time for reasons of expediency to try to ensure a consistent message and focus.
205
#205
13 Frags +

I'm done with this game, CUBE got a community weapon and i didn't. fuck you valvo!

I'm done with this game, CUBE got a community weapon and i didn't. fuck you valvo!
206
#206
5 Frags +
BoneSI'm done with this game, CUBE got a community weapon and i didn't. fuck you valvo!

They got you mixed up with the Wireplay guy

[quote=BoneS]I'm done with this game, CUBE got a community weapon and i didn't. fuck you valvo![/quote]
They got you mixed up with the Wireplay guy
207
#207
9 Frags +

rk came back from the dead to do predictions on tf2.

WE ALIVE BOYS

rk came back from the dead to do predictions on tf2.

WE ALIVE BOYS
208
#208
4 Frags +

Enimgma, are you willing to show us traffic stats again? Maybe beautiful twitch john as well?

Enimgma, are you willing to show us traffic stats again? Maybe beautiful twitch john as well?
209
#209
10 Frags +

This is what somebody posted on the UGC forums:

MongoenAs a player who has never played competitive but who is interested in doing so, I have NEVER heard of any leagues until far beyond a good thousand hours played into this game. How did I learn about this? Mainly because of friend's I've met playing the game. There seems to be a HUGE lack of "advertisement" for TF2 Comp and I think this is the reason why competitive is "dying". I am really interested in starting into UGC but just the process of joining a team that isn't a total flop seems to be a giant effort. It's either you join a team and they are not as involved as you wish they would be or they just don't play at all and it ends up you being part of a dead team.
In my opinion, there should be some kind of requirement for scrims to make sure a team is still well and active. I have no clue if this already exists but that would be a suggestion. As far as I can tell, newcomers come here to learn how to play the game but people seem to judge anyone on the amount of hours they have sinked into this game. Though I understand that higher leagues require a certain amount of experience with the game, my real issue is that I am judged for a number that doesn't even represent a skill level. What are your opinions on this? I'd like to hear feedback.

This first part of this really strikes me, as I know how many people have tried and still try to get new players to take a look at competitive tf2.

I think this idea that I presented on the UGC forums isn't a bad idea to get people to simply search it.

CorsaMamboulayTake a look at www.playcomp.tf ! Will update for next season soon.
This is a really awesome site, and I think if we tried to get the majority of comp players to put #playcomp.tf in our names, it'd potentially get more players to look up the idea when they see a good player doing well in a pub or something. I'm sure we've already done something similar with putting something in our names, but with this website, new players can see what you're trying to have them check out right away. I also think the name should be playcompetitive.tf instead because there are some people who wouldn't understand what comp meant at first glance.

Like I said, I know we've done something similar, but I don't think we ever got the majority of comp players to put something this informative in our names.

Would this be a good idea that you guys would want to do? It's pretty simple and effortless, because the site is already made.

This is what somebody posted on the UGC forums:

[QUOTE=Mongoen]As a player who has never played competitive but who is interested in doing so, I have NEVER heard of any leagues until far beyond a good thousand hours played into this game. How did I learn about this? Mainly because of friend's I've met playing the game. There seems to be a HUGE lack of "advertisement" for TF2 Comp and I think this is the reason why competitive is "dying". I am really interested in starting into UGC but just the process of joining a team that isn't a total flop seems to be a giant effort. It's either you join a team and they are not as involved as you wish they would be or they just don't play at all and it ends up you being part of a dead team.
In my opinion, there should be some kind of requirement for scrims to make sure a team is still well and active. I have no clue if this already exists but that would be a suggestion. As far as I can tell, newcomers come here to learn how to play the game but people seem to judge anyone on the amount of hours they have sinked into this game. Though I understand that higher leagues require a certain amount of experience with the game, my real issue is that I am judged for a number that doesn't even represent a skill level. What are your opinions on this? I'd like to hear feedback.[/QUOTE]

This first part of this really strikes me, as I know how many people have tried and still try to get new players to take a look at competitive tf2.

I think this idea that I presented on the UGC forums isn't a bad idea to get people to simply search it.

[QUOTE=Corsa][QUOTE=Mamboulay]Take a look at [url]www.playcomp.tf[/url] ! Will update for next season soon.[/QUOTE]

This is a really awesome site, and I think if we tried to get the majority of comp players to put #playcomp.tf in our names, it'd potentially get more players to look up the idea when they see a good player doing well in a pub or something. I'm sure we've already done something similar with putting something in our names, but with this website, new players can see what you're trying to have them check out right away. I also think the name should be playcompetitive.tf instead because there are some people who wouldn't understand what comp meant at first glance.[/QUOTE]

Like I said, I know we've done something similar, but I don't think we ever got the majority of comp players to put something this informative in our names.

Would this be a good idea that you guys would want to do? It's pretty simple and effortless, because the site is already made.
210
#210
-3 Frags +

I would hope you guys are glad for the opportunity to play a game you enjoy that realistically will not 'die' (ie get to the point where you can't play competitively) for many, many years.

I've had to suffer through a lot worse crap playing the old tribes games competitively, which were categorically better games than tf2.

I would hope you guys are glad for the opportunity to play a game you enjoy that realistically will not 'die' (ie get to the point where you can't play competitively) for many, many years.

I've had to suffer through a lot worse crap playing the old tribes games competitively, which were categorically better games than tf2.
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