i helped gripe about badlands!

I personally agree with a good amount of that but to be honest blands is blands it is more then likely going to stay that way like it has for almost forever (besides a few recent updates) I can't really see a new blands.

i don't like how choke most the time isn't a viable place to rollout to, i would like to see midfight where my combo goes choke when i spam as demo onto their house/train

I like the resupply on second.

First things first, 6v6 or 9v9? How much of each do you play. Most of the community agree that badlands is, /by far/ the best TF2 6s map and the most important to know how to play well. Drilling your badlands play is easily one of the best places to start your new team around. But I know absolutely nothing about highlander and can indeed imagine it being cramped. (Though, you mentioned off-classing...)

#3 That's the unfortunate part about it, I want to keep the map in but I feel it needs a few touchups.

I don't think defending second is that hard honestly. Just hold up to choke and if you have an uber disadvantage just make them pop and bail. why is it so hard to defend unless you mean contesting then yeah spire is hard to contest since scouts aren't really a part of the fight and the soldiers have to jump

#6 This is based on 6v6.

I find it fun. A lot of what you've pointed out is why I think it's such a great map. The difficulty of pushing back onto the spire when you're defending rewards the winners of the midfight, allowing a team to use their momentum to push all the way to last if the other team doesn't play strategically.

valley to mid-point is pretty open

going from mid to last quickly isn't necessarily a bad thing - the mid fight is more exciting when the round is possibly at stake?

contesting two is feasible if your team communicates and understands whatever the situation is

flank favors defense of two - doesn't that balance the fact that retaking two is difficult?

last is cramped because the point caps very quickly

there are good things about the map and there are, admittedly, some things that could be considered flaws, but no map is perfect

i've always viewed it as a map that encourages good habits for new teams

myopen2cents

are you high

ok well heres why its fun to play

amazing for scouts and demos
doesnt stalemate
a 2nd point that literally revolves around airshots
forgiving flanks
multi tiered mid that allows a ton of different rollouts

everybody knows what everything is called and knows how it plays

No, could you explain why some of my points are wrong?

I can agree its amazing for scouts when pushing and for 2nd fights. Maybe my problem is due to the lower level of my play that teams do not fight second a lot.

Edit: Appreciate the reply with valid reasons and not just rage btw.

EDIT: nvm too tired can't read gnight

EDIT2: if you do poorly enough in any midfight you won't be defending your second point and I really don't see how badlands is any different? if you know when you're losing mid you can regroup at choke. I promise you it is a bitch to push through

This is a losing battle my friend. Badlands is THE quintessential competitive map. Nothing in the conceivable future will ever upset it, custom, valve or otherwise. To be frank, your criticisms seem to stem more from inexperience than from any ACTUAL problem associated with the map.

Kaidus isn't raging, he is asking a fairly simple question, because the gross misunderstanding which this thread has been founded on seems at odds with years of competitive player experience.

badlands is great because pushing every point is reasonably easy
oh and the map is small enough that soldier is playable

Alot of your problems with the map could be solved by learning the proper, or effective ways of playing 6v6. Put some more time in with your team, and as a player (not just on badlands.) then re-evaluate your opinion.

#16 Yes you have a solid point, but defending badlands last seems like the chances are slim that you actually have a chance.

#17 Yeah I have realised that my experience lacks quality input, but this is what it is like at lower levels. At least from what I've seen and played.

Sorry to not mention this earlier but this is for personal improvement on how I can get better on these points that I have listed.
I play scout.

Most of the reasons you listed are either wrong or opinion. The mid is reasonably open considering that a lot of the fighting can go either valley or under the bridge. Mid > last isn't true because of the distance and height of spire, and it's pretty easy to defend assuming there isn't some great wipe. I've seen plenty of teams botch pushes with full advantage. And I personally like the resup on flank and the fast cap on last. Not trying to say Badlands is the perfect map, but it just seems like people like to blame maps way too easily for their own mistakes.

Also wow did your post change when I posted this.

I feel like its very very important to recognize that lower level play does not determine the optimal nature of a map. If low level play dictated whether or not a map was good/bad, pubbers playing 2fort 24/7 would be nirvana.

Basically, the discussion you're trying to raise is based on misguided premises, judging something that your not actually equipped to judge, and asking for feedback and criticism from a community that has pretty much unanimously declared badlands to be better than any other map. As such, I'm not really sure where you expect this to go.

like #10, most of your complaints are why I like blands by far the most. It doesn't stalemate, choke points are generally avoidable, all classes can kill it everywhere... Even scouts defending last, because there's no way you're going to recap spire without 'em, and someone needs to clean up!

The 'horrible' flank is by FAR more desirable than granary/gullywash's small door/garage imo.

I don't think there's anything wrong with Badlands but I do think it is a very unforgiving map. But everyone forgets how hard it is because they've been playing it for so long.

To all the above, I intended this to be a personal improvement thread, because I suck shit on this map more than any other map.

#22 It began to sound like a rant on the map itself. It was not intended that way so yes I slimmed it down haha.

i thought being high gave you good ideas

Well, we need these discussions even on maps we consider "classics", so it's fine.

Basically I'd like to know how to be of more use on it.

I think I can help you enjoy Badlands a little more as I personally love the map as a long time scout.

Problem - Cramped middle.
Answer - Be mobile, don't take one spot and sit there, look around at what's going on and if someone is about to jump you, either stuff them if you need to protect your demo/medic, or get out of the way and wait for them to land. Scouts should not clump up together or with the combo or you will take and bring spam to your team. You are there early to call the enemy position and clean up on any damage from your demo/roamer.

Problem -Horrible flank and only competitive map(?) with a resupply on it.
Answer - You just hold the flank and make sure they don't rush you on it. You don't "have" to travel through the flank, almost ever, unless you kill someone on flank or they retreat off the flank. For the most part you can just travel behind the combo through choke points. If you have mid, it's very hard for them to back cap you, if you don't have mid, just have the roamer check the flank through house as you move to mid. It would be wise as a scout to stay out of the house, period.

Problem -Cramped last
Answer - You can stay on the ground behind the point watching the front for snipers and avoid the uber fight until uber has run out. Then shoot people who fall down on the floor level. You also need to push the demo back if he tries to come in on the main door. In this position you will also get the jump on anyone that sneaks through the left bottom door (which your roamer or demo should be watching anyway). You want to have your scouts in play on last because it's so hard to push out of last. As soon as you win the fight on last the scouts rush the spire to cap. Your combo needs to push the choke with the demo. And the scouts can watch the grey bridge entrance for them cutting through the flank. your roamer should ideally stay on last. If your team is coordinated enough you can all push out, but that kind of just wastes time, it's better to leave the roamer and just rush point/choke with the other 5.

Problem -Nearly impossible to defend against a uber (uber vs non uber).
Answer - Like you said, get a pyro to stuff the initial uber and the other scout can sit on heavy in spawn and run to the opposite side of the incoming uber and get ready to support that high ground. Give your team somewhere safe to retreat and kite the enemy uber.

Problem -Cap time on last (fast).
Answer - I don't see this as an issue, I see it as a scouts dream. You can take advantage anytime you see a demo holding lobby or too far forward and you are able to get in the base. Just run to last as sneaky as possible. I've capped dozens of last points because the demo was a sleep at the wheel. Also, when holding them on their last you can clear the stickies off the point from the end of the hallway, both to see where their demo is as he puts them back, or to call if he's not putting them back and have a buffed roamer jump the point.

Hope this helps!