I don't even wanna post my list after seeing that one

edit: gonna do it anyways because it got me thinking

tiny wall of low/mid players inc.

only counting players i played with in at least one match

vickm, anjirocool, lightningspike, finn, jdude, v3kz, brrton, derobertc, clutch, walter white, shortbus, key, toxic, donezo, freestate, geknaiir, applesauz, irk, air, stealthy, raytek, mr slin, e-thug, noona, sincostan, nick, cloudmaker, b33f, a couple of HL teams worth of players who I can't remember very well

not bad for 2.5 seasons

shoutout to v3kz sry about ur gAmEr career

edit 2: jesus christ more than half of those are scouts why do scouts always quit on me GOD

rumor is that okas will be playing medic for UP in their next match 8)

whatever you do, don't put in any spires

thx

I buy 2% but my roommates buy skim and i'll happily cook with either of them.

If I'm drinking a glass of milk it's gotta be 2% tho

Meat > Flash 5-1

Bud > QF 5-3

gucci > UP 5-3

MG > Yomies 5-3

LH > Throws 5-2

AG > Remains 5-4

most of these scores will probably be off teams wont get to 5 on metalworks but whatever.

he's suggesting that we change the rules to force the 'attacking' team to push. I agree with that, and am in favor of a shortened round timer to effect that change. Honestly, I don't know who would actually be opposed to this rule change, unless there's a contingent of TF2 viewers out there who hate midfights.

literally none if seeds are to indicate performance

Might see some 'upsets' in the upcoming games, though.

quick fix promotes passive play by taking away too many of the advantages that the pushing team has without creating new ones. In practice it negatively impacts the pace of 6s gameplay. It's far too easy to turtle up, trading QF ubers when the need arises, without losing any ground. It creates stalemates, but they're the kind of stalemates where both teams stand in a choke and pitifully trade rockets rather than the kind of stalemates where neither team shoots at all.

Slin said it best before. We should be encouraging the team with advantage to push and the team with disadvantage to hold, not the other way around. The EU ruleset encourages the team with disadvantage to push into the holding team. The pushes aren't as fun to watch (for most people. I'd say the vast, vast majority of people, but if you're gonna require me to hold a poll to prove this I'll concede the point that viewing enjoyment is subjective) because they fail much more often. That's why I dislike the EU ruleset that has no halftime.

I'm putting the onus of pushing onto iNg because they are the ones with the advantage. They have a reason to push, even if it's just to exchange ubers. When they sit on mid without even really peeking, they are the ones providing no opportunity for interesting gameplay. UP could push into mid, but the only reason they would do so is because they have to make something happen, not because they have any 'tactical' advantage.

The team with the advantage should be pushing. The team with disadvantage should be holding. That is what creates the exciting back and forth TF2 that I fell in love with. Switching that around is what creates the stalemates that most TF2 players (besides Kaneco apparently, and I'm sure there are others, but a minority) loathe.

Are you telling me that you would enjoy playing a match involving two stalemates of 7+ minutes in order to run the game to halftime? If you're the team in control, you would want that?

If so, that's an incredibly defeatist way to play. You have the advantage, and if you don't trust enough in yourself and in your team's abilities to use that advantage and would rather sit around waiting for the other team to hand you more advantages, that's really unfortunate. It's not tactical, it's scared. Don't tell me that it's smart from a tactical POV, because smart from a tactical POV is using your advantage to win the game. It's fucking dumb to sit around and hold mid at a one-round advantage because the timer will eventually run out and the other team will have another go at mid. If any team played it perfectly, it was UP. If you're not at an advantage, you wait until the advantage is gone. They could have just waited out the round timer and gotten a fresh reset at mid. There is no incentive to push into a disadvantageous situation.

The reason the EU ruleset is poor is because it encourages the leading team to do this stalemate stuff no matter what if they hold mid. You say that it encourages pushes, but only from the team at disadvantage. I don't know about you, but I'd rather see two teams push back into each other with advantage shifting rather than one team being forced to run into a wall of defense and get wiped. In the EU ruleset there is no incentive for iNg to push at all, even if they go 5 up against UP. They can just cap 2 and give themselves another 10 minutes. If time gets low they could just back off to mid and let UP cap 2, giving themselves another 10 minutes with which to run out the game. In NA rules there is at least a halftime that resets everyone to neutral ground.

Kaneco, the main things you're not taking into account here:

1) TF2 is a game that's meant to be fun. There are no real stakes in this game, and there's a reason that teams play aggressively rather than defensively. That reason is that it's not fun to sit around for 10 minutes at a time.

2) When a team is holding mid, especially on a wrap-happy map like snakewater (process is the king of this, but snake is good), it is very difficult for the other team to push into mid on a one-man advantage. Great teams can do it, sure. But even in invite many teams will choose not to push into a 6v5 with even ubers. Spawn advantage, cap-time advantage, even height advantage go to the team holding mid on snakewater. That's enough to make up for a dead roamer or scout. This is the reason that the "tagg bomb" was so effective for HRG in s14. You can just keep resetting the action over and over with a roamer bomb or scout sacrifice. The team holding 2 may push into mid, trade ubers, and without getting sufficient picks to commit, back out of it. That happened a couple times in this match (I haven't watched the video, but I watched the STV live, so I don't know if those made it in there).

At least at the level of TF2 that I play (Open), the only time this sort of thing happens is when a team with a significant DM (or some other) disadvantage goes up a round or two and gets the other team in a defensive situation. Better teams don't stalemate the game out. They believe they can win on the merits of their game without resorting to stalemates. The goal would then be to discourage a team from doing this. Honestly the best way I see to do this is to set the round timer to something much shorter than the 10 minutes it's currently set at. 3 or 4 minutes would be an appropriate time. That allows for 2 uber pushes from even a slow-paced team. The team on the attack would have incentive to push (resetting to mid is not in their favor, as they lose the advantage they had) and the team on the defense doesn't need to set up with heavy/engy/pyro because it's not that long to hold until the next reset.

I'm also in favor of banning engineer and possibly heavy due to shit strats that you could pull based around this rule change (lose the midfight? set up on last and wait out the timer!!) but I doubt that that would go through with many players so I won't get too much into it. Engineer is a shitty class for 6s though and due to the design of last point on a number of maps, it's the easiest way to deny an uber without requiring any modicum of skill.

we were supposed to go back tomorrow with a 2 hour delay but a bunch of water lines broke in the schools so i'm off another day AND a delay on Friday. Ridiculous. So much time off.

I remember the '99 storm. I lived out in the county with my grandparents at the time and my brother and I scared them half to death by jumping off the roof into the drifts. We missed about a week of school.

central indiana here, we'll likely be off school tomorrow too. Kinda sucks because I haven't entered any grades or anything yet and it'll be a massive rush to get it done on the day we go back. I went out yesterday. It took about 45 minutes to dig my car out and get it warmed up enough to drive. Really nasty stuff, especially after last winter when we didn't really get anything.

thx for tuning in if you did

thx for staying away if you didn't