I'm glad he used the telephone argument. I'm not glad Ken Ham doesn't seem to understand the truth behind it.

It's obvious this argument will never come to an end at this rate. Like PapaSmurf said, it's been an issue since forever. The issues with off classing in tf2mix should be dealt with individually like they have been, but with more harsh consequences.

The fact that admins/moderators can ban/restrict solely off of how they feel about the situation is an issue that most people don't seem to realize. While this isn't 100% something that is bad or wrong, it definitely isn't the most solid way to deal with the offenders.

There should be a document that dictates what should happen to said offenders. This document could state common situations where certain utilities are allowed, time the player spent on the class, and general stuff such as that.

For example, pushing Granary last. Granary last, as I'm sure a lot of people will agree, can often invite lengthy stalemates. There are other things this last point brings to the table, but I'll only include this one. It's not rare to see the pushing or even the defending team running a sniper to regain advantages that were lost one way or another prior to pushing last. So obviously this would be okay for someone in a pug to do.

While the document alone will not solve the issue, it would be best to require admins/moderators to watch every demo when there may be a problem player. Yes, it takes away from your precious time, but if you signed up to be an authority figure, you should take honest responsibility and do your job correctly.

TF2mix was supposed to be a place for new players trying to learn the metagame. That example I gave is part of the metagame. Banning off classing entirely takes away from something new players will have to learn anyway. It's not fair for the new players to miss out on learning in a channel allegedly dedicated to helping said players.

An example of this document would look something like this - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xdCZ2GP5_nIeeYsbWP9QOAXEquyJww4wyXsPPYDQLEw/edit?usp=sharing - Except probably better looking and with more to it.

When it comes down to obvious cases of people trolling the pug/intentionally trying to ruin it for the other team/playing a utility classes for their own desires instead of proper situations, simply watching the demo and seeing this will suffice. In my opinion, anyone trying to ruin a pug or troll or whatever should receive something like a 3 month restriction right off the bat. No feeling bad for those who don't feel bad for the things they do to others.

I feel like I'm forgetting stuff that was supposed to be a part of this post, but I think what I have will get the idea through. It's not about how "harsh" or "unfair" the consequences are. It's about having a fun place to play, a place for new players to learn the game and a place for experienced players to play and potentially help out the newer players.

Open it to Nye talking about birds. I'm in.

I decided to give this a shot. Add me if you want! KirbyTFTV#1854

You're completely right! I waste my time asking questions I already know the answer to.

I didn't mean to derail this thread, sorry Slin.

post count doesn't dictate whether or not i notice the plus sign

and now that i know that's there, i will do so. thank you.

something i don't understand about this is that people get flack over it regardless if it's posted in off topic. it's an off topic sub-forum for a reason. i know that's not the reason for the amount of dislikes, but i've noticed it a lot lately.

Kind of unrelated, but how much is TFTV+/mo?

http://i.imgur.com/Wn7cF4G.jpg

no problem with me, but with others

his statement directly says otherwise, unless i'm missing a part of that argument in an earlier post of his.

papasmurf is only there to decline my requests for trivia

literally no argument can logically support perma-off classing.

as for an argument for banning sniper/other utilities: people (un)intentionally ruining pugs for the other team by running sniper 24/7 is more than enough to call for consequences.

1. boners
2. nipples
3. ???