Me too. They play 5v5, support sniper in DM via the headshot plugin, and point out all the other annoying crap the standard classes do.

Why didn't you post this in the other thread? I wouldn't have even had to say anything.

I don't know if you were here for the last thread, but the main reason they're banning sniper is because they think he's useless to the team, not because they don't like getting bodyshot.

Why are we talking about 2 demos being unrealistic? A realistic midfight is 5 combat classes versus 5 combat classes, and apparently nothing could be more horrifying. The community is working hard to ensure no DMing happens on DM servers. I hope we're also editing all competitive maps to remove flanks, banning everything but scout and soldier, and bowing before entering single combat in the great MGE arena.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlv6BrrxD_4

At least I won't be alone.

Amazing

a concept you say..

he piped my shit

Great player

Or a battalion of moderators.

Incoming missiles

I liked the song choice, also nice frags

Wasn't Yukon designed to give offclasses a chance to shine though? Not that I particularly like the map.

As long as you avoid direct combat it's not a bad weapon. I don't really think the benefits outweigh the terrible combat ability. I wish it reloaded at the same speed as the Soda Popper.

@Kirby, The accessibility is in the higher randomness factor. A less skilled player has the opportunity to shoot the more skilled played when that more skilled player is distracted. It's the same principle as random crits, except this one encourages improvement. Learning to shoot a guy in the back helps you learn to shoot a guy in the face.

I understand the problem people have with Sniper and Demo. When I say functionality I mean functionality as a whole. This includes playing the class, playing alongside the class, and playing against the class. They don't work well in 4v4; this seems to be the consensus. But they work in 5v5, I know that from experience.

Skill disparity matters because skill disparity kills the server when it's 4v4. I cite my Process example again. The server died on that Process map. Half the other team left because they were completely restricted from utilizing the DM environment.

@frkn, I don't accept that as an explanation. If 4v4 is as superior as you all claim, then why aren't you playing on it? Because it's not populated. If Sniper and 5v5 are crimes against DM, then why do you play on the eXtv ones? Why do you tolerate the random spam, which everyone seems to consider bad enough to swap the functionality of two DM classes to avoid? The obvious answer is that it is tolerable. That the advantages of being on a 5v5 server (more players) is worth the disadvantages (random spam). Why there are more players is something we can argue all day and all night, But the fact remains that random spam is so minor a disadvantage that nobody can be troubled to make the switch.

Like the whitelist, incidentally. I'm all for a whitelist, but does anyone really care if someones running around with a huntsman? He dies the same as any sniper, and a death to him isn't any different than deaths to random spam.

@Azelff

It's common knowledge that Demo can't match up to Scout or Soldier in direct DM, just like Sniper. If you're going to ban Sniper from 4v4 because he's a disadvantage to a team in a mode with no objective, then you might as well ban Demo because he causes exactly the same problem.

That is not what I am saying. I am saying that your servers must be one of the superior in management and content, completely different altogether, or an overflow option for when the other servers are populated.

Your servers are better maintained and managed, I agree with you. eXtv does a terrible job at that. But I think the problem exists on a fundamental level, down to the very core of the idea of 4v4. That is where the server is not superior, and that is the reason it is not filled.

I think 5v5 has:
-Better accessibility for lower level players
-Better functionality for Sniper and Demo (two very frequently played DM classes)
-Less stagnation due to team's skills

If even one of those is true, wouldn't that be the obvious answer as to why your servers aren't filled?

And frkn, saying that is a complete denial of all socioeconomic principles. Someone asked for a polling system, but we don't have one, so right now we vote with our attendance. Right now Fog has 0 votes.

You sound like SPUF. Next thing you're going to be telling me how absurdly overpowered the Shortstop is.

How do you decide that a class is useless in a mode with no goal. The only purpose of DM is practice. You're supposed to fight and you're supposed to die. Sniper does both just fine.

I don't know what TF2F stand for, but here's what I do know:

-The 4v4 servers aren't populated
-The 5v5 ones are
-Sniper and Demo don't function well in 4v4, but do in 5v5

Is it such a stretch to think that the functionality of Sniper and Demo just MIGHT have something to do with the popularity of the server? That's not even counting the other issues I brought up, since people don't agree with me. Though I think anyone who has played both will find them undeniably true.

The only reason I've heard as to why 4v4 is better is because there's less random spam. I say this is a null issue because it's unrelated to the purpose of DM. If you want less random spam go scrim.

I respect anyone who supports the community in any way, and you're absolutely right that I can (and will) continue to play on eXtv's servers. But your audience doesn't exist, Fog. Your servers are empty. Even a community effort only managed to fill one for a couple hours, if even that. Lack of population is a symptom, not the cause. If a server owner wants his server to be filled, he needs to offer something different, better, or in demand. But judging by the results, yours are none of the three.

I'm not trying to bash you, or anyone who prefers your servers. Really I'm not even trying to force you to change it. But you asked for suggestions, and everyone seems to bemoan the fact that your servers are never full, and this is what I think about it.

Do that and I definitely will not be playing on the servers. I think DM servers are one of the best places to practice sniping. Sniper and Demo function perfectly in 5v5, so why are we blaming the class for the fault of the format? Nobody plays your servers because they're never populated, but why are they never populated in the first place? After watching half the other team leave when they were completely shut out on Process, of all places, I think I understand why. Did nobody ever consider that the eXtv servers are more populated because they're more fun for people who like to DM?

If you're going to take Sniper out you may as well take Demo out too, since he causes exactly the same problem. And if you're going to have just Scouts and Soldiers, you might as well make it into an MGE server. The entire point of DM as opposed to MGE is to play in a chaotic environment similar to a regular match's.