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Making Pyro More Enjoyable for Everyone
1
#1
0 Frags +

A while back I made a thread on what the community would like to see happen to the Pyro, and the feedback I received was very enlightening. First and foremost, I want to thank you all that posted previously for the engaging discussion that was had. :)

That said, and with a few months of... uh, "deep reflection and deliberate work", a report back seems in order. There was going to be a video attached to this, but SourceMod doesn't work right now. Text and theory will have to do for now. Here's the gist, with a full changelist at the bottom of the post:

  • Flamethrowers are made more distinct in direct combat.
  • Airblasts preserve enemy momentum, and are weaker overall.
  • Super-situational weapons were given new mechanics.

These changes were meant to reconcile both the "Pyro is unfun to play as"-people and the "Pyro is obnoxious to play against"-folk. Direct combat is made more reliable, since they're fashioned more after the Scattergun than before. Stock and the Phlogistinator have actual ramp-up at point-blank range, and the Degreaser and Backburner's only downsides are that they don't. All the flamethrowers have more falloff, making each primary's unique factor all the more important; with stock's (hopefully) being the most general of all. (Falloff happens from default damage, not the ramp-up.) Pyro's made both more rewarding and more engaging at the same time... I think. Maybe. I could be wrong.

That's just half the story, though. Pyros are happy, but what about everybody else? Having to deal with airblasting and truly deadly DPS is a terrible thought, so I took away one of those problems. I reverted the damage changes entirely. Airblasts aren't the beast we all know and... know, anymore. They preserve enemy velocity, and aren't as strong. Projectiles still reflect fine, but you can't stall players without some serious effort anymore. You can still throw people out of position, but you have to work with their momentum; not against it. Wax on, wax off, woosah, et cetera. There ought to be more thought involved in airblasts, although definitely less necessary with the buff to direct combat.

Since stalling ubers is still important, I added the "old" airblast to the Neon Annihilator, which brings me to the third point, niche weapons! The almost-never-used-seriously weapons are given whole new uses, and I'm just gonna say right now that some of them are total crapshots.

Here are the changes that are pretty sensible:

  • Homewrecker is now a faux Quick-Fix one-shots anything short of level 3 buildings.
  • The Third Degree builds a healing Medic's uber.
  • SVF crits against Pyros, Targe Demoknights, and Spy-cicle Spies.
  • NA "airblasts" on hit.

Here are the ones that... look, I was running on empty:

  • Scorch Shot afterburn debuffs attack (*cries into vodka in exasperation*).
  • Manmelter fires really fast (mid offense, direct counter to SS).
  • Backscratcher applies bleed (made more sense before Axt nerf).
  • Phlogistinator taunt isn't indestructible (couldn't make it not cap during it).

It seemed like the complaints on the pro-Pyro and anti-Pyro sides weren't in conflict at all, and I can only hope this mod is proof of that. Once SourceMod is up and running again, I'll be going to TF2Center and testing all of this in lobbies. In the meantime, feel free to shoot your own ideas at me on how to proceed with development. Or we can fool around saying Pyro is the devil and stuff because frankly all our hands are tied for the time being anyway. Either's cool.

For all the technical mumbo jumbo, an official page for the mod is here: CLICK ME PLS

A while back I made a thread on what the community would like to see happen to the Pyro, and the feedback I received was very enlightening. First and foremost, I want to thank you all that posted previously for the engaging discussion that was had. :)

That said, and with a few months of... uh, "deep reflection and deliberate work", a report back seems in order. There [i]was[/i] going to be a video attached to this, but SourceMod doesn't work right now. Text and theory will have to do for now. Here's the gist, with a full changelist at the bottom of the post:

[list]
[*] Flamethrowers are made more distinct in direct combat.
[*] Airblasts preserve enemy momentum, and are weaker overall.
[*] Super-situational weapons were given new mechanics.
[/list]

These changes were meant to reconcile both the "Pyro is unfun to play [i]as[/i]"-people and the "Pyro is obnoxious to play [i]against[/i]"-folk. Direct combat is made more reliable, since they're fashioned more after the Scattergun than before. Stock and the Phlogistinator have actual ramp-up at point-blank range, and the Degreaser and Backburner's only downsides are that they don't. All the flamethrowers have more falloff, making each primary's unique factor all the more important; with stock's (hopefully) being the most general of all. (Falloff happens from default damage, not the ramp-up.) Pyro's made both more rewarding and more engaging at the same time... I think. Maybe. I could be wrong.

That's just half the story, though. Pyros are happy, but what about everybody else? Having to deal with airblasting [i]and[/i] truly deadly DPS is a terrible thought, so I took away one of those problems. [s]I reverted the damage changes entirely.[/s] Airblasts aren't the beast we all know and... know, anymore. They preserve enemy velocity, and aren't as strong. Projectiles still reflect fine, but you can't stall players without some serious effort anymore. You can still throw people out of position, but you have to work [i]with[/i] their momentum; not [i]against[/i] it. Wax on, wax off, woosah, et cetera. There ought to be more thought involved in airblasts, although definitely less necessary with the buff to direct combat.

Since stalling ubers is still important, I added the "old" airblast to the Neon Annihilator, which brings me to the third point, niche weapons! The almost-never-used-seriously weapons are given whole new uses, and I'm just gonna say right now that some of them are total crapshots.

Here are the changes that are pretty sensible:
[list]
[*] Homewrecker is now a faux Quick-Fix one-shots anything short of level 3 buildings.
[*] The Third Degree builds a healing Medic's uber.
[*] SVF crits against Pyros, Targe Demoknights, and Spy-cicle Spies.
[*] NA "airblasts" on hit.
[/list]

Here are the ones that... look, I was running on empty:
[list]
[*] Scorch Shot afterburn debuffs attack (*cries into vodka in exasperation*).
[*] Manmelter fires really fast (mid offense, direct counter to SS).
[*] Backscratcher applies bleed (made more sense before Axt nerf).
[*] Phlogistinator taunt isn't indestructible (couldn't make it not cap during it).
[/list]

It seemed like the complaints on the pro-Pyro and anti-Pyro sides weren't in conflict at all, and I can only hope this mod is proof of that. Once SourceMod is up and running again, I'll be going to TF2Center and testing all of this in lobbies. In the meantime, feel free to shoot your own ideas at me on how to proceed with development. Or we can fool around saying Pyro is the devil and stuff because frankly all our hands are tied for the time being anyway. Either's cool.

For all the technical mumbo jumbo, an official page for the mod is here: [url=http://alfonsocrawford.com/sickburn/]CLICK ME PLS[/url]
2
#2
27 Frags +

Degreaser doesn't airblast players

Balanced

Degreaser doesn't airblast players

Balanced
3
#3
30 Frags +

"All downsides attached the Backburner and Degreaser have been removed."
"Direct point-blank damage from the default flamethrower and Phlogistinator is increased by 75%."

dude what

"All downsides attached the Backburner and Degreaser have been removed."
"Direct point-blank damage from the default flamethrower and Phlogistinator is increased by 75%."

dude what
4
#4
-11 Frags +

This could work, and I'd like to see where it goes, honestly.

EDIT:
I really didn't read the mod thoroughly, yeah theres a lot of things wrong with it, especially that ridiculous close-range damage nonsense you got going on. focus on fixing airblast first, if you're gonna do anything

This could work, and I'd like to see where it goes, honestly.

EDIT:
I really didn't read the mod thoroughly, yeah theres a lot of things wrong with it, especially that ridiculous close-range damage nonsense you got going on. focus on fixing airblast first, if you're gonna do anything
5
#5
18 Frags +
Reminixe"All downsides attached the Backburner and Degreaser have been removed."
"Direct point-blank damage from the default flamethrower and Phlogistinator is increased by 75%."

dude what

seriously wtf

[quote=Reminixe]"All downsides attached the Backburner and Degreaser have been removed."
"Direct point-blank damage from the default flamethrower and Phlogistinator is increased by 75%."

dude what[/quote]
seriously wtf
6
#6
19 Frags +

all u needed to do was make airblast momentum based the rest is pretty unnecessary

all u needed to do was make airblast momentum based the rest is pretty unnecessary
7
#7
13 Frags +

What about actually having to aim airblast rather than having its collision box be a force field around the player?

What about actually having to aim airblast rather than having its collision box be a force field around the player?
8
#8
23 Frags +

cole where you at bro

cole where you at bro
9
#9
-7 Frags +
wareyaReminixe"All downsides attached the Backburner and Degreaser have been removed."
"Direct point-blank damage from the default flamethrower and Phlogistinator is increased by 75%."

dude what
seriously wtf

Seems bad on paper, but my own testing shows its less than absolutely devastating. I managed to get some demonstration footage a while back, before the Heavy-nerf and the current ramp value (it's 11 instead of 10, now): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvyUhhRu3fo

[quote=wareya][quote=Reminixe]"All downsides attached the Backburner and Degreaser have been removed."
"Direct point-blank damage from the default flamethrower and Phlogistinator is increased by 75%."

dude what[/quote]
seriously wtf[/quote]

Seems bad on paper, but my own testing shows its less than absolutely devastating. I managed to get some demonstration footage a while back, before the Heavy-nerf and the current ramp value (it's 11 instead of 10, now): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvyUhhRu3fo
10
#10
13 Frags +
AlfonsoCrawfordSeems bad on paper, but my own testing shows its less than absolutely devastating. I managed to get some demonstration footage a while back, before the Heavy-nerf and the current ramp value (it's 11 instead of 10, now): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvyUhhRu3fo

all of these bots are dying instantly what

[quote=AlfonsoCrawford]Seems bad on paper, but my own testing shows its less than absolutely devastating. I managed to get some demonstration footage a while back, before the Heavy-nerf and the current ramp value (it's 11 instead of 10, now): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvyUhhRu3fo[/quote]
all of these bots are dying instantly what
11
#11
10 Frags +
AlfonsoCrawfordwareyaReminixethingthing2
video

those dudes melted... people already complain about wm1
and thats only 50% added to pointblank meaning now its 15 per tick?

[quote=AlfonsoCrawford][quote=wareya][quote=Reminixe]thing[/quote]
thing2[/quote]

video[/quote]

those dudes melted... people already complain about wm1
and thats only 50% added to pointblank meaning now its 15 per tick?
12
#12
-8 Frags +
Reminixethose dudes melted... people already complain about wm1
and thats only 50% added to pointblank meaning now its 15 per tick?

10 at 50%
11 at 75%

Testing outside of Walkway has been less dominating. Charging a group of players carelessly leads to 1-2 kills tops. 1v1 is more affected by the falloff than the ramp-up, in my experience. In the later bit of Heavy-demonstration, the weakness of the change is more apparent.

waocole where you at bro

ikr

[quote=Reminixe]those dudes melted... people already complain about wm1
and thats only 50% added to pointblank meaning now its 15 per tick?[/quote]

10 at 50%
11 at 75%

Testing outside of Walkway has been less dominating. Charging a group of players carelessly leads to 1-2 kills tops. 1v1 is more affected by the falloff than the ramp-up, in my experience. In the later bit of Heavy-demonstration, the weakness of the change is more apparent.

[quote=wao]cole where you at bro[/quote]

ikr
13
#13
46 Frags +

The removal of pyros sounds quite intriguing.

The removal of pyros sounds quite intriguing.
14
#14
10 Frags +

I love playing pyro in pubs and in 6s, and I feel like the range change isn't the way to go with the class.

The airblast change is wonderful, but the chief reason people say that they hate playing against Pyros is that "if you get in close range you die and if you kite they're useless," and the way you've adjusted rampup and falloff means this is even more pronounced. Pyros will instantly kill people in close range (10 damage per particle times 25 particles per second means 250 DPS, aka around 1.8 point blank rocket launchers). But they only tickle at the limits your range, making you even easier to kite than before with your slow speed. This means that all the Pyro is good for is hiding around corners or in little nooks with the Detonator and facestabbing people. Which doesn't take that much skill and doesn't seem that fun, really.

The pyro doesn't need to be stronger at point blank, it needs to be not garbage at mid-range. I think you should increase flamethrower particle speed and lifetime and decrease the firing cone of the flamethrower, and make particles do closer to base damage (less rampup and falloff). This means that the Pyro can actually dm at midrange because the flamethrower extends further (particle lifetime) and is easier to track (particle speed), as well as does decent damage per particle. A tighter cone would reward good flamethrower tracking and punish w+m1 morons waving their mice, to help stop complaints that the class is poorly skill-indexed.

It seems like people think that getting cool reflects kills is the most fun and interesting part of pyro, and if you want to make it a flanker class, you should focus on making it more consistent, not more powerful at ambushing. And also less “all-or-nothing, win-or-lose”, because dming people on the flank is the fun part about pyro, and getting instantly mowed down isn't.

I love playing pyro in pubs and in 6s, and I feel like the range change isn't the way to go with the class.

The airblast change is wonderful, but the chief reason people say that they hate playing against Pyros is that "if you get in close range you die and if you kite they're useless," and the way you've adjusted rampup and falloff means this is even more pronounced. Pyros will instantly kill people in close range (10 damage per particle times 25 particles per second means 250 DPS, aka around 1.8 point blank rocket launchers). But they only tickle at the limits your range, making you even easier to kite than before with your slow speed. This means that all the Pyro is good for is hiding around corners or in little nooks with the Detonator and facestabbing people. Which doesn't take that much skill and doesn't seem that fun, really.

The pyro doesn't need to be stronger at point blank, it needs to be not garbage at mid-range. I think you should increase flamethrower particle speed and lifetime and decrease the firing cone of the flamethrower, and make particles do closer to base damage (less rampup and falloff). This means that the Pyro can actually dm at midrange because the flamethrower extends further (particle lifetime) and is easier to track (particle speed), as well as does decent damage per particle. A tighter cone would reward good flamethrower tracking and punish w+m1 morons waving their mice, to help stop complaints that the class is poorly skill-indexed.

It seems like people think that getting cool reflects kills is the most fun and interesting part of pyro, and if you want to make it a flanker class, you should focus on making it more consistent, not more powerful at ambushing. And also less “all-or-nothing, win-or-lose”, because dming people on the flank is the fun part about pyro, and getting instantly mowed down isn't.
15
#15
2 Frags +

can u not

can u not
16
#16
2 Frags +
4812622I love playing pyro in pubs and in 6s, and I feel like the range change isn't the way to go with the class.

The airblast change is wonderful, but the chief reason people say that they hate playing against Pyros is that "if you get in close range you die and if you kite they're useless," and the way you've adjusted rampup and falloff means this is even more pronounced. Pyros will instantly kill people in close range (10 damage per particle times 25 particles per second means 250 DPS, aka around 1.8 point blank rocket launchers). But they only tickle at the limits your range, making you even easier to kite than before with your slow speed. This means that all the Pyro is good for is hiding around corners or in little nooks with the Detonator and facestabbing people. Which doesn't take that much skill and doesn't seem that fun, really.

The pyro doesn't need to be stronger at point blank, it needs to be not garbage at mid-range. I think you should increase flamethrower particle speed and lifetime and decrease the cone, and make particles do closer to base damage (less rampup and falloff). This means that the Pyro can actually dm at midrange because the flamethrower extends further (particle lifetime) and is easier to track (particle speed). A tighter cone would reward good flamethrower tracking and punish w+m1 morons waving their mice, to help stop complaints that the class is poorly skill-indexed.

It seems like people think that getting cool reflects kills is the most fun and interesting part of pyro, and if you want to make it a flanker class, you should focus on making it more consistent, not more powerful at ambushing. And also less “all-or-nothing, win-or-lose”, because dming people on the flank is the fun part about pyro.

I feel you. The change I made to the Manmelter is meant to cover mid-range combat; being a weaker, no-splash Rocket Launcher.

From what I've been told, the problem is/was that Pyro was too braindead at lower levels of skill while being unrewarding as one becomes better. If the change causes more problems than it solves, I'm open to new ideas. Particle-manipulation is something I've experimented with in the past, but found it being more trouble than it's worth. As I improved as a developer, it may be more manageable.

nullcan u not

i can not not

[quote=4812622]I love playing pyro in pubs and in 6s, and I feel like the range change isn't the way to go with the class.

The airblast change is wonderful, but the chief reason people say that they hate playing against Pyros is that "if you get in close range you die and if you kite they're useless," and the way you've adjusted rampup and falloff means this is even more pronounced. Pyros will instantly kill people in close range (10 damage per particle times 25 particles per second means 250 DPS, aka around 1.8 point blank rocket launchers). But they only tickle at the limits your range, making you even easier to kite than before with your slow speed. This means that all the Pyro is good for is hiding around corners or in little nooks with the Detonator and facestabbing people. Which doesn't take that much skill and doesn't seem that fun, really.

The pyro doesn't need to be stronger at point blank, it needs to be not garbage at mid-range. I think you should increase flamethrower particle speed and lifetime and decrease the cone, and make particles do closer to base damage (less rampup and falloff). This means that the Pyro can actually dm at midrange because the flamethrower extends further (particle lifetime) and is easier to track (particle speed). A tighter cone would reward good flamethrower tracking and punish w+m1 morons waving their mice, to help stop complaints that the class is poorly skill-indexed.

It seems like people think that getting cool reflects kills is the most fun and interesting part of pyro, and if you want to make it a flanker class, you should focus on making it more consistent, not more powerful at ambushing. And also less “all-or-nothing, win-or-lose”, because dming people on the flank is the fun part about pyro.[/quote]

I feel you. The change I made to the Manmelter is meant to cover mid-range combat; being a weaker, no-splash Rocket Launcher.

From what I've been told, the problem is/was that Pyro was too braindead at lower levels of skill while being unrewarding as one becomes better. If the change causes more problems than it solves, I'm open to new ideas. Particle-manipulation is something I've experimented with in the past, but found it being more trouble than it's worth. As I improved as a developer, it may be more manageable.

[quote=null]can u not[/quote]

i can not not
17
#17
11 Frags +

Reflecting should not move players around at all. And the best fix for pyro is just to remove the class from the game.

Reflecting should not move players around at all. And the best fix for pyro is just to remove the class from the game.
18
#18
0 Frags +
pine_beetleReflecting should not move players around at all. And the best fix for pyro is just to remove the class from the game.

With the Neon Annihilator change, I've given serious thought to that idea. The airblast one.

[quote=pine_beetle]Reflecting should not move players around at all. And the best fix for pyro is just to remove the class from the game.[/quote]
With the Neon Annihilator change, I've given serious thought to that idea. The airblast one.
19
#19
0 Frags +

What the pyro needs is a weapon that is essentially a jet burner(maybe a re-purposed jet turbine in terms of design aesthetics) that functions similar to a lightning gun type weapon and also sets people on fire for minimal damage.

What the pyro needs is a weapon that is essentially a jet burner(maybe a re-purposed jet turbine in terms of design aesthetics) that functions similar to a lightning gun type weapon and also sets people on fire for minimal damage.
20
#20
9 Frags +

Pyro

[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTSGcdoJcCg]Pyro[/url]
21
#21
10 Frags +

>Third Degree increases a healing Medic’s ÜberCharge by 20% on hit.

AHAHAHA WHAT

>Third Degree increases a healing Medic’s ÜberCharge by 20% on hit.

AHAHAHA WHAT
22
#22
-13 Frags +
AlfonsoCrawfordwareyaReminixe"All downsides attached the Backburner and Degreaser have been removed."
"Direct point-blank damage from the default flamethrower and Phlogistinator is increased by 75%."

dude what
seriously wtf

Seems bad on paper, but my own testing shows its less than absolutely devastating. I managed to get some demonstration footage a while back, before the Heavy-nerf and the current ramp value (it's 11 instead of 10, now): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvyUhhRu3fo

mfw Katawa Shoujo music

http://i.imgur.com/1Jey11q.png

[quote=AlfonsoCrawford][quote=wareya][quote=Reminixe]"All downsides attached the Backburner and Degreaser have been removed."
"Direct point-blank damage from the default flamethrower and Phlogistinator is increased by 75%."

dude what[/quote]
seriously wtf[/quote]

Seems bad on paper, but my own testing shows its less than absolutely devastating. I managed to get some demonstration footage a while back, before the Heavy-nerf and the current ramp value (it's 11 instead of 10, now): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvyUhhRu3fo[/quote]

mfw Katawa Shoujo music

[img]http://i.imgur.com/1Jey11q.png[/img]
23
#23
9 Frags +

I think this guy's master plan is to get us to say "pyro is fine now" so it can be used against us later.

I think this guy's master plan is to get us to say "pyro is fine now" so it can be used against us later.
24
#24
0 Frags +
WhiteMagicalHat>Third Degree increases a healing Medic’s ÜberCharge by 20% on hit.

AHAHAHA WHAT

Grodbrort weapons have consistently been a pain to modify. You've gotta admit that it creates situations where you'd equip it over the Powerjack or Axtinguisher, though.

AntaresPyro

And that's why the falloff was added, 4812622.

When an enemy is actively trying to stay outside of your flames, the result is most likely going to be that they're outside of your kill-range, only getting tickled; effectively neutering W+M1 play. The extra damage only becomes a factor when you get the drop on your target.

I really wish SourceMod wasn't broken right now. :(

[quote=WhiteMagicalHat]>Third Degree increases a healing Medic’s ÜberCharge by 20% on hit.

AHAHAHA WHAT[/quote]

Grodbrort weapons have consistently been a pain to modify. You've gotta admit that it creates situations where you'd equip it over the Powerjack or Axtinguisher, though.

[quote=Antares][url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTSGcdoJcCg]Pyro[/url][/quote]

And [i]that's[/i] why the falloff was added, 4812622.

When an enemy is actively trying to stay outside of your flames, the result is most likely going to be that they're outside of your kill-range, only getting tickled; effectively neutering W+M1 play. The extra damage only becomes a factor when you get the drop on your target.

I really wish SourceMod wasn't broken right now. :(
25
#25
5 Frags +

I miss when the backburner gave +50 HP. :[

I miss when the backburner gave +50 HP. :[
26
#26
3 Frags +

Do flames really need a change? I haven't heard anyone complain about "w+m1" or dying to flames in general for a long time. I think the damage is fine right now, especially since it's still damage-over-time and most classes can out burst-damage you, both at range and up close.

If you really made airblasts not destroy momentum that's pretty sweet though. That's the only thing that really needs a change, in my opinion. So with your change, what happens to someone who's, say, running directly at me when I airblast him?

Do flames really need a change? I haven't heard anyone complain about "w+m1" or dying to flames in general for a long time. I think the damage is fine right now, especially since it's still damage-over-time and most classes can out burst-damage you, both at range and up close.

If you really made airblasts not destroy momentum that's pretty sweet though. That's the only thing that really needs a change, in my opinion. So with your change, what happens to someone who's, say, running directly at me when I airblast him?
27
#27
-4 Frags +
HueyLewisDo flames really need a change? I haven't heard anyone complain about "w+m1" or dying to flames in general for a long time. I think the damage is fine right now, especially since it's still damage-over-time and most classes can out burst-damage you, both at range and up close.

If you really made airblasts not destroy momentum that's pretty sweet though. That's the only thing that really needs a change, in my opinion. So with your change, what happens to someone who's, say, running directly at me when I airblast him?

The people I've spoken with have had complaints about Pyro's ability to effectively follow through in the tight window they have (the metric I was given is ~0.8s). At the same time, I've been told that a buff to flames would be terrible for new players that believe them to be overpowered? There has been a "Pyro damage is fine"-camp, as well, and the mechanics outlined are my best reconciliation between those three parties that I could find. The quadratic equation used keeps a "ring" of about-normal damage that I have observed good Pyros tend to stay in, while the decrease beyond it is easier for new players to fight against. Ideally, the three general groups ("Pyro is weak", "Pyro is fine", and "I am a potato") each have their own accommodations. I would test this to make sure, but....

As for airblasts, hitting someone that's charging directly at you will cause them to hop slightly while still charging at you. Airblasting an aware opponent is generally a terrible idea. Fortunately, the Neon Annihilator can do what airblasts used to do, but it's somewhat trickier to use.

[quote=HueyLewis]Do flames really need a change? I haven't heard anyone complain about "w+m1" or dying to flames in general for a long time. I think the damage is fine right now, especially since it's still damage-over-time and most classes can out burst-damage you, both at range and up close.

If you really made airblasts not destroy momentum that's pretty sweet though. That's the only thing that really needs a change, in my opinion. So with your change, what happens to someone who's, say, running directly at me when I airblast him?[/quote]

The people I've spoken with have had complaints about Pyro's ability to effectively follow through in the tight window they have (the metric I was given is ~0.8s). At the same time, I've been told that a buff to flames would be terrible for new players that believe them to be overpowered? There has been a "Pyro damage is fine"-camp, as well, and the mechanics outlined are my best reconciliation between those three parties that I could find. The quadratic equation used keeps a "ring" of about-normal damage that I have observed good Pyros tend to stay in, while the decrease beyond it is easier for new players to fight against. Ideally, the three general groups ("Pyro is weak", "Pyro is fine", and "I am a potato") each have their own accommodations. I would test this to make sure, [i]but....[/i]

As for airblasts, hitting someone that's charging directly at you will cause them to hop slightly while still charging at you. Airblasting an aware opponent is generally a terrible idea. Fortunately, the Neon Annihilator can do what airblasts used to do, but it's somewhat trickier to use.
28
#28
-2 Frags +
HueyLewisDo flames really need a change? I haven't heard anyone complain about "w+m1" or dying to flames in general for a long time. I think the damage is fine right now, especially since it's still damage-over-time and most classes can out burst-damage you, both at range and up close.

If Pyro is useless in-game now and this change got his only situational use (uberstalling) removed, he should probably get some sort of buff to compensate, and his primary is a good place to start.

I'm pretty sure people don't complain about flames being overpowered because they don't get killed by flames very often.

[quote=HueyLewis]Do flames really need a change? I haven't heard anyone complain about "w+m1" or dying to flames in general for a long time. I think the damage is fine right now, especially since it's still damage-over-time and most classes can out burst-damage you, both at range and up close.

[/quote]

If Pyro is useless in-game now and this change got his only situational use (uberstalling) removed, he should probably get some sort of buff to compensate, and his primary is a good place to start.

I'm pretty sure people don't complain about flames being overpowered because they don't get killed by flames very often.
29
#29
2 Frags +
AlfansoCrawfordAntaresPyro
And that's why the falloff was added, 4812622.

When an enemy is actively trying to stay outside of your flames, the result is most likely going to be that they're outside of your kill-range, only getting tickled; effectively neutering W+M1 play. The extra damage only becomes a factor when you get the drop on your target.

why yes, a pyro with two pocket medics CAN kill a bunch of (severely retarded) sentry-less engineers and syringe gun medics who try to shoot him (and miss) while hes ubered, does that prove anything?

You seem to be saying that the falloff doesn't matter because Pyros only get kills at point-blank so the rest of the flames don't matter anyway. And that's not right.

The further half of the pyro's flamethrower is important, for chasing down weakened targets (flamethrower particles inherit the pyro's momentum so they travel further when the pyro is moving forward, by the way), for being able to reach kiting players after the initial burst of damage from an ambush, for being able to penetrate through multiple targets to maximize DPS, for dissuading players from chasing you while retreating, and for having derpy +back pyrovpyro fights. At every distance where the Pyro is not in flamethrower range, it is basically useless, except for the enemy feeding you projectiles to reflect. Every pathetic hammer unit of range of the flamethrower counts.

The point-blank part of the flamethrower is literally only used during ambushing. And that's not what Pyro should be about as a class, or at least, not the entire reason.

[quote=AlfansoCrawford][quote=Antares][url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTSGcdoJcCg]Pyro[/url][/quote]

And [i]that's[/i] why the falloff was added, 4812622.

When an enemy is actively trying to stay outside of your flames, the result is most likely going to be that they're outside of your kill-range, only getting tickled; effectively neutering W+M1 play. The extra damage only becomes a factor when you get the drop on your target.[/quote]

why yes, a pyro with two pocket medics CAN kill a bunch of (severely retarded) sentry-less engineers and syringe gun medics who try to shoot him (and miss) while hes ubered, does that prove anything?

You seem to be saying that the falloff doesn't matter because Pyros only get kills at point-blank so the rest of the flames don't matter anyway. And that's not right.

The further half of the pyro's flamethrower is important, for chasing down weakened targets (flamethrower particles inherit the pyro's momentum so they travel further when the pyro is moving forward, by the way), for being able to reach kiting players after the initial burst of damage from an ambush, for being able to penetrate through multiple targets to maximize DPS, for dissuading players from chasing you while retreating, and for having derpy +back pyrovpyro fights. At every distance where the Pyro is not in flamethrower range, it is basically useless, except for the enemy feeding you projectiles to reflect. Every pathetic hammer unit of range of the flamethrower counts.

The point-blank part of the flamethrower is literally only used during ambushing. And that's not what Pyro should be about as a class, or at least, not the entire reason.
30
#30
0 Frags +
4812622HueyLewisDo flames really need a change? I haven't heard anyone complain about "w+m1" or dying to flames in general for a long time. I think the damage is fine right now, especially since it's still damage-over-time and most classes can out burst-damage you, both at range and up close.

If Pyro is useless in-game now and this change got his only situational use (uberstalling) removed, he should probably get some sort of buff to compensate, and his primary is a good place to start.

I'm pretty sure people don't complain about flames being overpowered because they don't get killed by flames very often.

Nobody thinks the pyro is useless. The complaint is that the class is no risk high reward such as being able to completely stop an uber with no skillful play from the pyro at all. Just camp a important choke and mash m2. The pyro does not need a buff just because it's not used 100% of the time by teams in 6s.

[quote=4812622][quote=HueyLewis]Do flames really need a change? I haven't heard anyone complain about "w+m1" or dying to flames in general for a long time. I think the damage is fine right now, especially since it's still damage-over-time and most classes can out burst-damage you, both at range and up close.

[/quote]

If Pyro is useless in-game now and this change got his only situational use (uberstalling) removed, he should probably get some sort of buff to compensate, and his primary is a good place to start.

I'm pretty sure people don't complain about flames being overpowered because they don't get killed by flames very often.[/quote]

Nobody thinks the pyro is useless. The complaint is that the class is no risk high reward such as being able to completely stop an uber with no skillful play from the pyro at all. Just camp a important choke and mash m2. The pyro does not need a buff just because it's not used 100% of the time by teams in 6s.
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