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reserve shooter
1
#1
0 Frags +

a lot of people are telling valve how to nerf it but not telling valve how to actually balance it, i found some posts from a year ago but those were bullcrap

any ideas?

a lot of people are telling valve how to nerf it but not telling valve how to actually balance it, i found some posts from a year ago but those were bullcrap

any ideas?
2
#2
66 Frags +

remove from game

remove from game
3
#3
-12 Frags +

more accurate in long range (more damage at longer ranges)
4 shells in clip
18% slower fire rate

more accurate in long range (more damage at longer ranges)
4 shells in clip
18% slower fire rate
4
#4
-13 Frags +

-You can only mini-crit airborne players that became airborne from your own attacks
-Negate switch speed buff if Degreaser is equipped (Or: Have a switch speed cap)
-Change mini-crit time back to 3s from 5
-A 5/10% damage vulnerability during the time you can mini-crit (first 3s of deployment)

-You can only mini-crit airborne players that became airborne from your own attacks
-Negate switch speed buff if Degreaser is equipped (Or: Have a switch speed cap)
-Change mini-crit time back to 3s from 5
-A 5/10% damage vulnerability during the time you can mini-crit (first 3s of deployment)
5
#5
24 Frags +

the actual problems with the reserve shooter are very clear if you have played the game at any decent level. the weapon rewards you for abusing what is likely the single most reviled mechanic in the game, airblast, and has no option for counterplay while simultaneously taking minimal functional skill to use properly due to the fact that the airblast arc is perfectly predictable and the weapon is hitscan AND switches faster. the weapons exists as a culmination of every frustrating, low skill mechanic that exists in tf2. the best counter to the weapon is to never engage a pyro, which encourages people to play slowly and defensively in pubs. making random inconsequential stat changes like sops suggested does absolutely nothing to impact the usability of the weapon, because the concept is still fundamentally flawed.

also, valve have never once implemented a community balance change suggestion. making suggestions is the wrong approach because A) unless you are one of very very few people on this forum with enough experience to suggest decent changes, you dont know what you're talking about and B) suggesting changes still doesnt identify what the root problem of a weapon is.

the actual problems with the reserve shooter are very clear if you have played the game at any decent level. the weapon rewards you for abusing what is likely the single most reviled mechanic in the game, airblast, and has no option for counterplay while simultaneously taking minimal functional skill to use properly due to the fact that the airblast arc is perfectly predictable and the weapon is hitscan AND switches faster. the weapons exists as a culmination of every frustrating, low skill mechanic that exists in tf2. the best counter to the weapon is to never engage a pyro, which encourages people to play slowly and defensively in pubs. making random inconsequential stat changes like sops suggested does absolutely nothing to impact the usability of the weapon, because the concept is still fundamentally flawed.

also, valve have never once implemented a community balance change suggestion. making suggestions is the wrong approach because A) unless you are one of very very few people on this forum with enough experience to suggest decent changes, you dont know what you're talking about and B) suggesting changes still doesnt identify what the root problem of a weapon is.
6
#6
18 Frags +

also you guys who are suggesting changes should probably read what the weapon actually does, because both of you have listed attributes that the weapon already has like 4 shells in clip or only minicritting people who are knocked airborne by an enemy

also you guys who are suggesting changes should probably read what the weapon actually does, because both of you have listed attributes that the weapon already has like 4 shells in clip or only minicritting people who are knocked airborne by an enemy
7
#7
0 Frags +

Oh I was trying to point out that it needs completely different stats because right now its -all you wrote about it-.

Oh I was trying to point out that it needs completely different stats because right now its -all you wrote about it-.
8
#8
32 Frags +

-Remove Mincrits
-Increase Switch speed.
-Decrease Clipsize to 3
-Damage taken from rocket jumps is reduced by 20%

I think this would allow for a combined gunboats/shotgun pocket role which would be interesting to see and play with.

-Remove Mincrits
-Increase Switch speed.
-Decrease Clipsize to 3
-Damage taken from rocket jumps is reduced by 20%

I think this would allow for a combined gunboats/shotgun pocket role which would be interesting to see and play with.
9
#9
2 Frags +
nitealso you guys who are suggesting changes should probably read what the weapon actually does, because both of you have listed attributes that the weapon already has like 4 shells in clip or only minicritting people who are knocked airborne by an enemy

pretty sure sops was listing completely new stats. his are fine, if a bit underpowered potentially, it's kinda middle ground between the flare guns range and the shotgun's dps. might be too good at denying jumpers though depending on the actual accuracy bonus

[quote=nite]also you guys who are suggesting changes should probably read what the weapon actually does, because both of you have listed attributes that the weapon already has like 4 shells in clip or only minicritting people who are knocked airborne by an enemy[/quote]

pretty sure sops was listing completely new stats. his are fine, if a bit underpowered potentially, it's kinda middle ground between the flare guns range and the shotgun's dps. might be too good at denying jumpers though depending on the actual accuracy bonus
10
#10
0 Frags +

the whole theme of the weapon is to be useful when swapped to but worse as a general use weapon. i think that if they replaced minicrits with something that was harder but more rewarding to good aim then it could be fine. E.g. tighter spread that gets wider the longer you have the gun out.

but like as long as airblast stuns then pretty much any attempt to make it take skill is flawed.

the whole theme of the weapon is to be useful when swapped to but worse as a general use weapon. i think that if they replaced minicrits with something that was harder but more rewarding to good aim then it could be fine. E.g. tighter spread that gets wider the longer you have the gun out.

but like as long as airblast stuns then pretty much any attempt to make it take skill is flawed.
11
#11
-5 Frags +

I think if the airblast is fixed the weapon won't be a problem

I think if the airblast is fixed the weapon won't be a problem
12
#12
2 Frags +
sopsOh I was trying to point out that it needs completely different stats because right now its -all you wrote about it-.

oh my bad, i agree that the weapon is probably best off being fundamentally changed, but valve also doesnt want to alienate the casual pyro playerbase that enjoys the combo playstyle so it's unlikely that they would be willing to completely scrap the stats and change the concept.

[quote=sops]Oh I was trying to point out that it needs completely different stats because right now its -all you wrote about it-.[/quote]

oh my bad, i agree that the weapon is probably best off being fundamentally changed, but valve also doesnt want to alienate the casual pyro playerbase that enjoys the combo playstyle so it's unlikely that they would be willing to completely scrap the stats and change the concept.
13
#13
4 Frags +

delete it

delete it
14
#14
1 Frags +

Don't allow pyro to use it. Otherwise it's fine.

Don't allow pyro to use it. Otherwise it's fine.
15
#15
3 Frags +
ComangliaDon't allow pyro to use it. Otherwise it's fine.

I feel like people forget that soldier can use it so they only balance it for the pyro.

[quote=Comanglia]Don't allow pyro to use it. Otherwise it's fine.[/quote]

I feel like people forget that soldier can use it so they only balance it for the pyro.
16
#16
6 Frags +

its really only slightly broken on soldier, you sacrifice some of the reliable damage of shotgun for gimmicky increased damage in certain situations. its definitely much better in a team fight than shotty, because any of your other explosive wielding teammates can knock enemies airborne for you to minicrit. in situations where you arent fighting with other explosive classes though, its going to be worse than shotty most of the time. considering the prevalence of double gunboats it might not be the worst thing in the world to have a slightly better shotgun, but i dislike the minicrits and chaotic feel of the gun if we are looking for an improvement on shotgun for soldier.

its really only slightly broken on soldier, you sacrifice some of the reliable damage of shotgun for gimmicky increased damage in certain situations. its definitely much better in a team fight than shotty, because any of your other explosive wielding teammates can knock enemies airborne for you to minicrit. in situations where you arent fighting with other explosive classes though, its going to be worse than shotty most of the time. considering the prevalence of double gunboats it might not be the worst thing in the world to have a slightly better shotgun, but i dislike the minicrits and chaotic feel of the gun if we are looking for an improvement on shotgun for soldier.
17
#17
1 Frags +

as much as I'd like it to be removed from the game it's not actually going to happen, but here are some suggestions that I thought of

  • no mini crits
  • +30 health on kill (can be changed since this is just a theoretical suggestion)
  • -20% damage
  • same switch speed (or maybe even slower) than stock shotgun
  • 4 shots

thoughts?

as much as I'd like it to be removed from the game it's not actually going to happen, but here are some suggestions that I thought of
[list]
[*] no mini crits
[*] +30 health on kill (can be changed since this is just a theoretical suggestion)
[*] -20% damage
[*] same switch speed (or maybe even slower) than stock shotgun
[*] 4 shots
[/list]

thoughts?
18
#18
0 Frags +

Why is it allowed for soldier? I've never even seen pubbies equip it to soldier because it's so much more impractical than the shotgun; with the pyro it at least serves the purpose of being used with the degreaser.

Why is it allowed for soldier? I've never even seen pubbies equip it to soldier because it's so much more impractical than the shotgun; with the pyro it at least serves the purpose of being used with the degreaser.
19
#19
Spaceship Servers
9 Frags +

remove from pyro

on soldier:
3 shots in clip, 20% more accurate

remove from pyro

on soldier:
3 shots in clip, 20% more accurate
20
#20
0 Frags +

fun fact: the reserve shooter was originally created for the soldier and added in the uber update of june 2011, but valve allowed it as an unlock for pyro in the manniversary update of october 2011

fun fact: the reserve shooter was originally created for the soldier and added in the uber update of june 2011, but valve allowed it as an unlock for pyro in the manniversary update of october 2011
21
#21
-1 Frags +
viperfun fact: the reserve shooter was originally created for the soldier and added in the uber update of june 2011, but valve allowed it as an unlock for pyro in the manniversary update of october 2011

https://i.imgur.com/yNlQWRM.jpg

[quote=viper]fun fact: the reserve shooter was originally created for the soldier and added in the uber update of june 2011, but valve allowed it as an unlock for pyro in the manniversary update of october 2011[/quote]

https://i.imgur.com/yNlQWRM.jpg
22
#22
1 Frags +

just make it a reskin for default

just make it a reskin for default
23
#23
0 Frags +

I genuinely wondering if this weapon mini crits jumping soldiers that didn't take any knockback of any kind besides jumping by themselves (i havent seen this weapon in ages so sorry if i don't know this)

I genuinely wondering if this weapon mini crits jumping soldiers that didn't take any knockback of any kind besides jumping by themselves (i havent seen this weapon in ages so sorry if i don't know this)
24
#24
2 Frags +
Starry_NebulaeI genuinely wondering if this weapon mini crits jumping soldiers that didn't take any knockback of any kind besides jumping by themselves (i havent seen this weapon in ages so sorry if i don't know this)

I've played some aids mge in my time and it does. It's crazily good at knocking back jumping soldiers which in my opinion is the main problem with it in 6s. Everything about it on pyro is only annoying really because of airblast.

[quote=Starry_Nebulae]I genuinely wondering if this weapon mini crits jumping soldiers that didn't take any knockback of any kind besides jumping by themselves (i havent seen this weapon in ages so sorry if i don't know this)[/quote]

I've played some aids mge in my time and it does. It's crazily good at knocking back jumping soldiers which in my opinion is the main problem with it in 6s. Everything about it on pyro is only annoying really because of airblast.
25
#25
0 Frags +

i prefer keep thing simple
replace minicrit bonus with +20% damage bonus (or 15%)

The problem with RS is it rewards player +35% damage (minicrit) so easily, just by airblasting people or the opponent himself do rocket-sticky jumping (minicrit shotgun is a huge deal)
while on ground it becomes a downgrade from stock because smaller clip size (faster switching speed doesn't matter)

So
+15% (or +20%) damage
+20% faster deploying speed
-34% clip size

sound like a fair trade for me, more damage fewer shot, can be use both on ground or air while also nerfing the +35% minicrit damage

i prefer keep thing simple
replace minicrit bonus with +20% damage bonus (or 15%)

The problem with RS is it rewards player +35% damage (minicrit) so easily, just by airblasting people or the opponent himself do rocket-sticky jumping (minicrit shotgun is a huge deal)
while on ground it becomes a downgrade from stock because smaller clip size (faster switching speed doesn't matter)

So
+15% (or +20%) damage
+20% faster deploying speed
-34% clip size

sound like a fair trade for me, more damage fewer shot, can be use both on ground or air while also nerfing the +35% minicrit damage
26
#26
0 Frags +
Messing_Aroundi prefer keep thing simple
replace minicrit bonus with +20% damage bonus (or 15%)

The problem with RS is it rewards player +35% damage (minicrit) so easily, just by airblasting people or the opponent himself do rocket-sticky jumping (minicrit shotgun is a huge deal)
while on ground it becomes a downgrade from stock because smaller clip size (faster switching speed doesn't matter)

So
+15% (or +20%) damage
+20% faster deploying speed
-34% clip size

sound like a fair trade for me, more damage fewer shot, can be use both on ground or air while also nerfing the +35% minicrit damage

That doesn't change anything, you'll never really use more than 2 shots to get a kill with this weapon and your stats still make it better than the shotgun for no reason

[quote=Messing_Around]i prefer keep thing simple
replace minicrit bonus with +20% damage bonus (or 15%)

The problem with RS is it rewards player +35% damage (minicrit) so easily, just by airblasting people or the opponent himself do rocket-sticky jumping (minicrit shotgun is a huge deal)
while on ground it becomes a downgrade from stock because smaller clip size (faster switching speed doesn't matter)

So
+15% (or +20%) damage
+20% faster deploying speed
-34% clip size

sound like a fair trade for me, more damage fewer shot, can be use both on ground or air while also nerfing the +35% minicrit damage[/quote]

That doesn't change anything, you'll never really use more than 2 shots to get a kill with this weapon and your stats still make it better than the shotgun for no reason
27
#27
1 Frags +
Drummer
That doesn't change anything, you'll never really use more than 2 shots to get a kill with this weapon and your stats still make it better than the shotgun for no reason

2 shots to kill what? Are you sure that you can do full body shot 60-90 damage without missing any pellet? How about the clip size?

And do you really think that a 4 shots shotgun with +15% damage bonus is just as OP as the current RS, that can do minicrit on you just because you're airborne?

My RS suggestion is no way better than the Shotgun, it's just an exchange, smaller clip size for extra damage and faster switching speed

I can't see how this doesn't change anything, I mean we just nerf the gun from +35% to +15% damage and remove that stupid airborne mechanic, how does that mean nothing?

[quote=Drummer]

That doesn't change anything, you'll never really use more than 2 shots to get a kill with this weapon and your stats still make it better than the shotgun for no reason[/quote]

2 shots to kill what? Are you sure that you can do full body shot 60-90 damage without missing any pellet? How about the clip size?

And do you really think that a 4 shots shotgun with +15% damage bonus is just as OP as the current RS, that can do minicrit on you just because you're airborne?

My RS suggestion is no way better than the Shotgun, it's just an exchange, smaller clip size for extra damage and faster switching speed

I can't see how this doesn't change anything, I mean we just nerf the gun from +35% to +15% damage and remove that stupid airborne mechanic, how does that mean nothing?
28
#28
4 Frags +
nitealso, valve have never once implemented a community balance change suggestion.

i agree with literally everything else you suggested (it's far better to identify the problem if you're a community member, not a propose a solution, designers have a ton of people that can shit out solutions and actually test them, it's identifying the problem that is the useful part, it's also half of what makes a good designer: capable of identifying the real problems (and making solutions that benefit the game the best).

but this statement is false. The eventual Blutsauger nerf (one of 4 versions in it), Medic regeneration change, Pistol ROF change, FaN nerf, original Sandman nerf and thrown Sandvich functionality/G.R.U. (irony) were all directly changed/added due to competitive community feedback with the TF2 Competitive Closed Beta back in 2009. They also listened and didn't add the PDQ (reworked it into the Gunslinger), didn't nerf the Ubersaw (they tried two different nerfs), didn't add the Fire Retardant Suit (eventually got reworked into Spy-cicle), and didn't add the Medigun with no overheal decay due to competitive community feedback in that same beta.

The Equalizer solely exists due to community feedback. They directly say this on the update page, they took the weapon idea from community members: http://www.teamfortress.com/soldierupdate/

granted, this was all ages ago (the only recent thing you could count is just features and valve listening to banny on not doing their proposed Reserve Shooter change he said would have been a buff, and listening to not doing something is technically just as important as listening to doing something) and was during a time when the high level 6s community had enough of valve's ear where they had an entire private branch of the game to play on and communicate with valve with, but there is precedence for it all the same.

(again, not that i think this kind of stuff in this thread is a very good way to go about any of it)

[quote=nite]
also, valve have never once implemented a community balance change suggestion.[/quote]

i agree with literally everything else you suggested (it's far better to identify the problem if you're a community member, not a propose a solution, designers have a ton of people that can shit out solutions and actually test them, it's identifying the problem that is the useful part, it's also half of what makes a good designer: capable of identifying the real problems (and making solutions that benefit the game the best).

but this statement is false. The eventual Blutsauger nerf (one of 4 versions in it), Medic regeneration change, Pistol ROF change, FaN nerf, original Sandman nerf and thrown Sandvich functionality/G.R.U. (irony) were all directly changed/added due to competitive community feedback with the TF2 Competitive Closed Beta back in 2009. They also listened and didn't add the PDQ (reworked it into the Gunslinger), didn't nerf the Ubersaw (they tried two different nerfs), didn't add the Fire Retardant Suit (eventually got reworked into Spy-cicle), and didn't add the Medigun with no overheal decay due to competitive community feedback in that same beta.

The Equalizer solely exists due to community feedback. They directly say this on the update page, they took the weapon idea from community members: http://www.teamfortress.com/soldierupdate/

granted, this was all ages ago (the only recent thing you could count is just features and valve listening to banny on not doing their proposed Reserve Shooter change he said would have been a buff, and listening to not doing something is technically just as important as listening to doing something) and was during a time when the high level 6s community had enough of valve's ear where they had an entire private branch of the game to play on and communicate with valve with, but there is precedence for it all the same.

(again, not that i think this kind of stuff in this thread is a very good way to go about any of it)
29
#29
9 Frags +

It's a gimmicky, overpowered pub weapon that only benefits PYRO. It's something that the 6's community doesn't want.

Show Content
Something that TF2 doesn't need
It's a gimmicky, overpowered pub weapon that only benefits PYRO. It's something that the 6's community doesn't want.




[spoiler]Something that TF2 doesn't need[/spoiler]
30
#30
-3 Frags +
Messing_AroundDrummer
That doesn't change anything, you'll never really use more than 2 shots to get a kill with this weapon and your stats still make it better than the shotgun for no reason

2 shots to kill what? Are you sure that you can do full body shot 60-90 damage without missing any pellet? How about the clip size?

Are you sure that hitscan combos with airblast are hard?

And do you really think that a 4 shots shotgun with +15% damage bonus is just as OP as the current RS, that can do minicrit on you just because you're airborne?

It's better than the shotgun except that it has 2 shots less which don't matter if you systematically deal more damage and switch to the weapon faster

My RS suggestion is no way better than the Shotgun, it's just an exchange, smaller clip size for extra damage and faster switching speed

I can't see how this doesn't change anything, I mean we just nerf the gun from +35% to +15% damage and remove that stupid airborne mechanic, how does that mean nothing?

It's still better at shotgunning than the shotgun for no extra requirement

[quote=Messing_Around][quote=Drummer]

That doesn't change anything, you'll never really use more than 2 shots to get a kill with this weapon and your stats still make it better than the shotgun for no reason[/quote]

2 shots to kill what? Are you sure that you can do full body shot 60-90 damage without missing any pellet? How about the clip size?[/quote]

Are you sure that hitscan combos with airblast are hard?

[quote] And do you really think that a 4 shots shotgun with +15% damage bonus is just as OP as the current RS, that can do minicrit on you just because you're airborne?[/quote]

It's better than the shotgun except that it has 2 shots less which don't matter if you systematically deal more damage and switch to the weapon faster

[quote]My RS suggestion is no way better than the Shotgun, it's just an exchange, smaller clip size for extra damage and faster switching speed

I can't see how this doesn't change anything, I mean we just nerf the gun from +35% to +15% damage and remove that stupid airborne mechanic, how does that mean nothing?[/quote]

It's still better at shotgunning than the shotgun for no extra requirement
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