pine_beetleThere is a lot of money in the game. Especially if we did pay to play highlander, and other things that would go to a long term growth. But we are not smart we are stupid if we get any money we spend it all instantly and never have anything to show for it. Why we think that would change because of valve is silly.
what the fuck are you talking about.
[quote=pine_beetle]There is a lot of money in the game. Especially if we did pay to play highlander, and other things that would go to a long term growth. But we are not smart we are stupid if we get any money we spend it all instantly and never have anything to show for it. Why we think that would change because of valve is silly.[/quote]
what the fuck are you talking about.
I said before i didn't have faith in valve to pull something like MM off given their track record with tf2 but I got called an idiot and that Valve really was listening to the community this time. I'm still salty.
Valve has no record of supporting any additions they've made to tf2 past a few months (except hats) , and MM is very very quickly reaching that limit. We should expect them to stop working on it after the next couple updates probably and if those don't take off it's completely dead.
Honestly now, it's probably far too late. I was queing on a weekday evening, about 7pm pst, what should be absolute prime time for gaming, less than 700 people qued for MM in the world. Every match I was placed in had most of the same people in it, just scrambled around. That's an embarrassingly low player base. What incentive does Valve have to work on a game mode .01% of their player base actually uses? One that doesn't earn them any real money yet requires a significant investment from the small TF2 team?
Many developers would kill to have a competitive scene with the passion and dedication that TF2 has, and would support them hand and foot, but competitive TF2 has really existed in spite of Valve rather than because of them. It's time to accept MM and Valve are more than likely never going to be the savior of competitive TF2, and that competitive TF2 is nearing the end of its lifespan, there's only so much a community, even one as passionate as TF2s, can do in the face of such disinterest and disregard by the game's company.
I said before i didn't have faith in valve to pull something like MM off given their track record with tf2 but I got called an idiot and that Valve really was listening to the community this time. I'm still salty.
Valve has no record of supporting any additions they've made to tf2 past a few months (except hats) , and MM is very very quickly reaching that limit. We should expect them to stop working on it after the next couple updates probably and if those don't take off it's completely dead.
Honestly now, it's probably far too late. I was queing on a weekday evening, about 7pm pst, what should be absolute prime time for gaming, less than 700 people qued for MM in the world. Every match I was placed in had most of the same people in it, just scrambled around. That's an embarrassingly low player base. What incentive does Valve have to work on a game mode .01% of their player base actually uses? One that doesn't earn them any real money yet requires a significant investment from the small TF2 team?
Many developers would kill to have a competitive scene with the passion and dedication that TF2 has, and would support them hand and foot, but competitive TF2 has really existed in spite of Valve rather than because of them. It's time to accept MM and Valve are more than likely never going to be the savior of competitive TF2, and that competitive TF2 is nearing the end of its lifespan, there's only so much a community, even one as passionate as TF2s, can do in the face of such disinterest and disregard by the game's company.
rocketslayrocket league is exciting to watch but it's hard to quantify how much is skill and how much is RNG imo
Having played it some I would say it's not really RNG based. It's obviously much simpler than TF2, but it still has a decently large skill ceiling with the movement/strategy.
One major difference with rocket league and TF2 in terms of competitive is:
http://i.imgur.com/PYRPPFR.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/6XySZlz.jpg
[quote=rocketslay]rocket league is exciting to watch but it's hard to quantify how much is skill and how much is RNG imo[/quote]
Having played it some I would say it's not really RNG based. It's obviously much simpler than TF2, but it still has a decently large skill ceiling with the movement/strategy.
One major difference with rocket league and TF2 in terms of competitive is:
http://i.imgur.com/PYRPPFR.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/6XySZlz.jpg
downpourwhat the fuck are you talking about.
We've raised 10s of thousands of dollars over the years just to send people to lan. This is a small fraction of what the community is capable of and if it was structured correctly it wouldn't be an instant loss. But that's what we do we just burn it all, immediately because we have a very short term concept of money. We want a profitable prosperous league and we want it to be not for profit and it is dumb. This hypocrisy is ultimately why tf2 never got much attention.
[quote=downpour]
what the fuck are you talking about.[/quote]
We've raised 10s of thousands of dollars over the years just to send people to lan. This is a small fraction of what the community is capable of and if it was structured correctly it wouldn't be an instant loss. But that's what we do we just burn it all, immediately because we have a very short term concept of money. We want a profitable prosperous league and we want it to be not for profit and it is dumb. This hypocrisy is ultimately why tf2 never got much attention.
There is a lot of money in the game. Especially if we did pay to play highlander
Pay to play Highlander would never fly. (e: unless if the fee was so absurdly cheap like 1 key or 2.50$ or something, then mayyyyyybe, but probably not still.)
Most of the people who play HL in the lower divs (where most of your money would hypothetically be since Iron & Steel & Silver alone is like 90% of the Highlander population) are underaged and can not very easily pay league fees. Most of the people in the higher divs would not pay to play HL tbh, especially now.
Even in it's utmost prime where NAHL had 408 teams during S10 (so anywhere between 3,672 - 8,568 players) introducing p2p HL would have killed off like 95% of the teams.
[quote]There is a lot of money in the game. Especially if we did pay to play highlander[/quote]
Pay to play Highlander would never fly. (e: unless if the fee was so absurdly cheap like 1 key or 2.50$ or something, then mayyyyyybe, but probably not still.)
Most of the people who play HL in the lower divs (where most of your money would hypothetically be since Iron & Steel & Silver alone is like 90% of the Highlander population) are underaged and can not very easily pay league fees. Most of the people in the higher divs would not pay to play HL tbh, especially now.
Even in it's utmost prime where NAHL had 408 teams during S10 (so anywhere between 3,672 - 8,568 players) introducing p2p HL would have killed off like 95% of the teams.
CitricValve could also have done something as simple as sell cheap cosmetic badges, for each of the teams at i58, with revenue going half to the teams and half to the prize pool. Of course these are just small initial steps to what we need, but we aren't even getting that. Valve have been (slowly) improving the game and setting up (with a fair amount of difficulty) the groundwork for the playerbase to see the game more competitively, but there needs to be some sort of monetary investment or we'll stay stagnant at best
honestly this is the best they could do, realistically for valve
this plus those cs:go crates you get from watching majors would be fairly easy to implement and it would genuinely make a large difference, I don't understand why it hasn't been done
[quote=Citric]
Valve could also have done something as simple as sell cheap cosmetic badges, for each of the teams at i58, with revenue going half to the teams and half to the prize pool. Of course these are just small initial steps to what we need, but we aren't even getting that. Valve have been (slowly) improving the game and setting up (with a fair amount of difficulty) the groundwork for the playerbase to see the game more competitively, but there needs to be some sort of monetary investment or we'll stay stagnant at best[/quote]
honestly this is the best they could do, realistically for valve
this plus those cs:go crates you get from watching majors would be fairly easy to implement and it would genuinely make a large difference, I don't understand why it hasn't been done
DarkNecrid
Pay to play Highlander would never fly. (e: unless if the fee was so absurdly cheap like 1 key or 2.50$ or something, then mayyyyyybe, but probably not still.)
Most of the people who play HL in the lower divs (where most of your money would hypothetically be since Iron & Steel & Silver alone is like 90% of the Highlander population) are underaged and can not very easily pay league fees. Most of the people in the higher divs would not pay to play HL tbh, especially now.
Even in it's utmost prime where NAHL had 408 teams during S10 (so anywhere between 3,672 - 8,568 players) introducing p2p HL would have killed off like 95% of the teams.
I disagree with you on that point. I crunched the numbers very thoroughly few years ago on this... probably still have the draft on an old computer I should check and see With the right prize pool and the right group of people it would work... this is somewhere where you could realistically get Valve to help you ( even though I still don't think we need valves help at all...).
But the whole idea that valve is going to do a bailout of any kind needs to be abandoned. Hope is an excuse for inaction and we spend way to much time hoping for handouts and blaming valve for our own self inflicted problems.
[quote=DarkNecrid][quote]
Pay to play Highlander would never fly. (e: unless if the fee was so absurdly cheap like 1 key or 2.50$ or something, then mayyyyyybe, but probably not still.)
Most of the people who play HL in the lower divs (where most of your money would hypothetically be since Iron & Steel & Silver alone is like 90% of the Highlander population) are underaged and can not very easily pay league fees. Most of the people in the higher divs would not pay to play HL tbh, especially now.
Even in it's utmost prime where NAHL had 408 teams during S10 (so anywhere between 3,672 - 8,568 players) introducing p2p HL would have killed off like 95% of the teams.[/quote]
I disagree with you on that point. I crunched the numbers very thoroughly few years ago on this... probably still have the draft on an old computer I should check and see With the right prize pool and the right group of people it would work... this is somewhere where you could realistically get Valve to help you ( even though I still don't think we need valves help at all...).
But the whole idea that valve is going to do a bailout of any kind needs to be abandoned. Hope is an excuse for inaction and we spend way to much time hoping for handouts and blaming valve for our own self inflicted problems.
I have said it once and I'll say it again, if ranks in matchmaking were based of something other than wins or losses so solo ques don't get paired with autismos, and if net settings and graphics settings were not forced, it would have 10x the number of people playing it
These were all things people complained about in beta, and was the reason I didn't play the beta much, because I figured it was a temporary thing until they sorted their shit out
One thing everyone can agree on whether they be from here, reddit, or spuf, is that matchmaking is shit and it doesn't even make sense considering how much better casual is
Also valve will never get someone to spend 10 bucks on it if all every player hears is a consensus on how shit it is
Nobody will care if they did a rank reset on a new system either, because everyone at the top is a hacker anyway
I was really looking forward to playing this game seriously after 3 years when I moved somewhere where the internet wasnt shit (in a week) but now I dont even want to because everyone is so depressed because even with all the attention this game has gotten lately it has somehow gotten worse
I promise valve, if you just made matchmaking 6v6 casual instead of whatever bullshit you decided, it would not be dead
I have said it once and I'll say it again, if ranks in matchmaking were based of something other than wins or losses so solo ques don't get paired with autismos, and if net settings and graphics settings were not forced, it would have 10x the number of people playing it
These were all things people complained about in beta, and was the reason I didn't play the beta much, because I figured it was a temporary thing until they sorted their shit out
One thing everyone can agree on whether they be from here, reddit, or spuf, is that matchmaking is shit and it doesn't even make sense considering how much better casual is
Also valve will never get someone to spend 10 bucks on it if all every player hears is a consensus on how shit it is
Nobody will care if they did a rank reset on a new system either, because everyone at the top is a hacker anyway
I was really looking forward to playing this game seriously after 3 years when I moved somewhere where the internet wasnt shit (in a week) but now I dont even want to because everyone is so depressed because even with all the attention this game has gotten lately it has somehow gotten worse
I promise valve, if you just made matchmaking 6v6 casual instead of whatever bullshit you decided, it would not be dead
pine_beetleWe had a great opportunity with cevo to go big, I was involved with it early on but we disagreed on prices I put on a counter proposal and they didn't climb up at all so I wished them good luck but had to opt out because I knew at that point it was probably going to fail.
In hindsight, the move to CEVO would have been bad regardless of pricing & splitting teams into different leagues. I mentioned this in Dashner's stream once, but moving leagues to CEVO would have meant that the TFTV stream would lose a massive chunk of its viewership to stream over on the MLG platform since CEVO had a business deal with them, AND also potentially losing contacts with Twitch (John & ect).
ConsoleBartendercalciferLike rocket league is a bigger e-sport than tf2, it's a joke.
Don't talk shit about Rocket League
it is literally flying cars hitting around an oversized soccer ball what do you want people to think about it being an esport compared to a game people have put thousands of dollars and hours into
Boomfan56rocketslayrocket league is exciting to watch but it's hard to quantify how much is skill and how much is RNG imo
Having played it some I would say it's not really RNG based. It's obviously much simpler than TF2, but it still has a decently large skill ceiling with the movement/strategy.
One major difference with rocket league and TF2 in terms of competitive is:
http://i.imgur.com/PYRPPFR.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/6XySZlz.jpg
Yea, Psyonix is a good dev and actually cares about its competitive scene.
Meanwhile, what effect did the skins that were added into TF2 during the two campaigns have to the game? Was there any player growth (like CS:GO), was there going to be a future $$ injection into the game, or was it just a cosmetic cash grab?
[quote=pine_beetle]
We had a great opportunity with cevo to go big, I was involved with it early on but we disagreed on prices I put on a counter proposal and they didn't climb up at all so I wished them good luck but had to opt out because I knew at that point it was probably going to fail.[/quote]
In hindsight, the move to CEVO would have been bad regardless of pricing & splitting teams into different leagues. I mentioned this in Dashner's stream once, but moving leagues to CEVO would have meant that the TFTV stream would lose a massive chunk of its viewership to stream over on the MLG platform since CEVO had a business deal with them, AND also potentially losing contacts with Twitch (John & ect).
[quote=Console][quote=Bartender][quote=calcifer]Like rocket league is a bigger e-sport than tf2, it's a joke.[/quote]
Don't talk shit about Rocket League[/quote]
it is literally flying cars hitting around an oversized soccer ball what do you want people to think about it being an esport compared to a game people have put thousands of dollars and hours into[/quote]
[quote=Boomfan56][quote=rocketslay]rocket league is exciting to watch but it's hard to quantify how much is skill and how much is RNG imo[/quote]
Having played it some I would say it's not really RNG based. It's obviously much simpler than TF2, but it still has a decently large skill ceiling with the movement/strategy.
One major difference with rocket league and TF2 in terms of competitive is:
http://i.imgur.com/PYRPPFR.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/6XySZlz.jpg[/quote]
Yea, Psyonix is a good dev and actually cares about its competitive scene.
Meanwhile, what effect did the skins that were added into TF2 during the two campaigns have to the game? Was there any player growth (like CS:GO), was there going to be a future $$ injection into the game, or was it just a cosmetic cash grab?
Pub I disagree with you the timing was very unique, you don't really about the discussions that took place in the background. But the main problem initially was the price was too low, and what tilted it over the edge for me ( and withdrew my money) was when they publicly stated that didn't want to compete with esea. If we had the right plan I was ready to put in up to 10k into the prize pot. Incrementally dependant on registration, which under the plan I had at the time would have become cash flow positive the by the next season. Their plan did not meet the threshold required to that and for me that just it was doomed to fail. They did a lot better than I thought they would even hosting a lan which was great... but I know for sure without a doubt it could have gone much differently.
Pub I disagree with you the timing was very unique, you don't really about the discussions that took place in the background. But the main problem initially was the price was too low, and what tilted it over the edge for me ( and withdrew my money) was when they publicly stated that didn't want to compete with esea. If we had the right plan I was ready to put in up to 10k into the prize pot. Incrementally dependant on registration, which under the plan I had at the time would have become cash flow positive the by the next season. Their plan did not meet the threshold required to that and for me that just it was doomed to fail. They did a lot better than I thought they would even hosting a lan which was great... but I know for sure without a doubt it could have gone much differently.
I think i'd do unspeakable things to actually have Valve employees in a room answering questions asked by the community; primarily stuff like 'why haven't you done this?' and 'why will you not even respond to the i58 request?', or even for them to just explain their working situation and why they do stuff.
I think i'd do unspeakable things to actually have Valve employees in a room answering questions asked by the community; primarily stuff like 'why haven't you done this?' and 'why will you not even respond to the i58 request?', or even for them to just explain their working situation and why they do stuff.
https://i.gyazo.com/b8060a7210eff34275c142f25074222d.png
im fine with people posting their own options but you haven't launched the game in 6 months nor have i seen you very active on the forums in the past few months pine beetle. think you may be a little out of touch with the state of the game my man
[img]https://i.gyazo.com/b8060a7210eff34275c142f25074222d.png[/img]
im fine with people posting their own options but you haven't launched the game in 6 months nor have i seen you very active on the forums in the past few months pine beetle. think you may be a little out of touch with the state of the game my man
Is that supposed to be an argument? Congratulations you figured out I don't play anymore, I'd probably still beat most demos to mid every round but whatever... If I had time to play I would be playing, I really miss my team that played with years ago.
Here's what I'm seeing and you can tell me if I'm right of wrong:
The state of the game has greatly deteriorated since the time I played which was actually few years ago. Not 6 months. This is at all levels open /im/invite. The metagame is really boring and getting worse. Registration is low and getting worse. Motivation is extremely low.... All I'm seeing is people blaming valve for non-valve problems. What I'm saying is if you want conditions to improve you're going to have to stop wasting your time blaming valve and come up with a real plan to get this game moving in another direction. I think it is possible to do and I'm making some suggestions but you guys are so stuck on blaming valve that you can't open your mind up to any other ideas.
Is that supposed to be an argument? Congratulations you figured out I don't play anymore, I'd probably still beat most demos to mid every round but whatever... If I had time to play I would be playing, I really miss my team that played with years ago.
Here's what I'm seeing and you can tell me if I'm right of wrong:
The state of the game has greatly deteriorated since the time I played which was actually few years ago. Not 6 months. This is at all levels open /im/invite. The metagame is really boring and getting worse. Registration is low and getting worse. Motivation is extremely low.... All I'm seeing is people blaming valve for non-valve problems. What I'm saying is if you want conditions to improve you're going to have to stop wasting your time blaming valve and come up with a real plan to get this game moving in another direction. I think it is possible to do and I'm making some suggestions but you guys are so stuck on blaming valve that you can't open your mind up to any other ideas.
pine_beetleIs that supposed to be an argument? Congratulations you figured out I don't play anymore, I'd probably still beat most demos to mid every round but whatever... If I had time to play I would be playing, I really miss my team that played with years ago.
Here's what I'm seeing and you can tell me if I'm right of wrong:
The state of the game has greatly deteriorated since the time I played which was actually few years ago. Not 6 months. This is at all levels open /im/invite. The metagame is really boring and getting worse. Registration is low and getting worse. Motivation is extremely low.... All I'm seeing is people blaming valve for non-valve problems. What I'm saying is if you want conditions to improve you're going to have to stop wasting your time blaming valve and come up with a real plan to get this game moving in another direction. I think it is possible to do and I'm making some suggestions but you guys are so stuck on blaming valve that you can't open your mind up to any other ideas.
dude the community has singlehandedly supported competitive tf2 for almost a decade, and competitive support isn't gonna be a thing much longer without valve's support. the reason why it's all deteriorating is because community members are finding it harder and harder to justify putting time into a game where they thought they would find support only to not find any from valve.
[quote=pine_beetle]Is that supposed to be an argument? Congratulations you figured out I don't play anymore, I'd probably still beat most demos to mid every round but whatever... If I had time to play I would be playing, I really miss my team that played with years ago.
Here's what I'm seeing and you can tell me if I'm right of wrong:
The state of the game has greatly deteriorated since the time I played which was actually few years ago. Not 6 months. This is at all levels open /im/invite. The metagame is really boring and getting worse. Registration is low and getting worse. Motivation is extremely low.... All I'm seeing is people blaming valve for non-valve problems. What I'm saying is if you want conditions to improve you're going to have to stop wasting your time blaming valve and come up with a real plan to get this game moving in another direction. I think it is possible to do and I'm making some suggestions but you guys are so stuck on blaming valve that you can't open your mind up to any other ideas.[/quote]
dude the community has singlehandedly supported competitive tf2 for almost a decade, and competitive support isn't gonna be a thing much longer without valve's support. the reason why it's all deteriorating is because community members are finding it harder and harder to justify putting time into a game where they thought they would find support only to not find any from valve.
Nope. Esea has reluctantly supported the game for a very long time and gotten very little appreciation. A lot of other leagues.... XPL, TGL, cevo and others have tried and failed to garner any support at all from the community. That isn't valves fault that is ours period.
Nope. Esea has reluctantly supported the game for a very long time and gotten very little appreciation. A lot of other leagues.... XPL, TGL, cevo and others have tried and failed to garner any support at all from the community. That isn't valves fault that is ours period.
pine_beetleNope. Esea has reluctantly supported the game for a very long time and gotten very little appreciation. A lot of other leagues.... XPL, TGL, cevo and others have tried and failed to garner any support at all from the community. That isn't valves fault that is ours period.
the fact that those leagues failed are for a number of reasons but mostly because there is simply not a competitive playerbase to support multiple leagues. And it sure as hell isn't the community's fault most of tf2's playerbase doesn't know about competitive tf2...
[quote=pine_beetle]Nope. Esea has reluctantly supported the game for a very long time and gotten very little appreciation. A lot of other leagues.... XPL, TGL, cevo and others have tried and failed to garner any support at all from the community. That isn't valves fault that is ours period.[/quote]
the fact that those leagues failed are for a number of reasons but mostly because there is simply not a competitive playerbase to support multiple leagues. And it sure as hell isn't the community's fault most of tf2's playerbase doesn't know about competitive tf2...
pine_beetleI disagree with you on that point. I crunched the numbers very thoroughly few years ago on this... probably still have the draft on an old computer I should check and see With the right prize pool and the right group of people it would work... this is somewhere where you could realistically get Valve to help you ( even though I still don't think we need valves help at all...).
But the whole idea that valve is going to do a bailout of any kind needs to be abandoned. Hope is an excuse for inaction and we spend way to much time hoping for handouts and blaming valve for our own self inflicted problems.
Look man, I may not be very good at the shooty shooty part of this game, but I've been around in Highlander for a very long time and this argument is just plain stupid. Not only has the NAHL community discussed this prospect before multiple times and the conclusion has always been the same as what I said, but I'm not sure where the hell your logic of "right prize pool" or "right group of people" come from when there's literal proof that this shit doesn't matter that much in Highlander.
http://imgur.com/eNfERBR
This is the total teams that signed up and played at least 1 match of Highlander since S7 (since S6 and prior isn't on their site). You will notice that Season 12 has a big dip in teams compared to its surrounding seasons. That's the one NAHL season where there was a community prize pool drive for $5,000. Not only did this drive not actually meet its goal (it only reached $3,120), but there was significantly less Steel & Iron teams than the seasons before it.
Now, it was still a fun and great season, don't get me wrong, but this prize pool did not complete its goal. At the time there was a lot of people who just kept going lolhl and crap, even though UGC Highlander & UGC in general has probably fed many players into 6s over the years. It was a Spring season so January - April of 2014 which means most kids had to focus on school or were too busy to dedicate to it (notice how much bigger S10 & S13 are? Those are the summer seasons where there was no school). All the streaming, advertisizing, posts, mentoring goals, etc, could not get this to 5,000 USD and even still with a 3,120 USD one it didn't magically apparate a ton of people into Highlander. This was basically the peak of Highlander's skill level. This was like the best era of Highlander that ever existed.
Soooo, where exactly is this "right prize pool" and "right group of people", because it didn't exist in Highlander's prime time and it did basically nothing for it?
On a side note, the assertion that competitive Team Fortress 2 is dying solely because the community is bad with money and no one in our community assholeish enough came around that wanted to monetize people's passion really really well is kinda gross to think about. Especially when you'd be hard pressed to name a single other big e-sport alive right now that has to do that...because they all have their developers supporting them.
Now, don't get me wrong, I think the community has definitely made missteps along the way, especially with how people are often oblivious to how they act can push people away from the community but it's done a lot of great things too. Tip of the Hats brings a lot of attention to competitive TF2, and while I'm sure it's brought some people in, it hasn't stemmed the bleeding.
I don't expect Valve to drop money and save this game now, but even through all the communities missteps or problems, that is literally all that would have needed to be done all these years. If Valve dropped a tournament with even a minor prize pool of a couple thousand and added a DotA International book like mechanic, people would eat that shit up dude. Pubbers fucking love hats. Now you're telling them spend 10$ and get EXCLUSIVE HATS? And if they level up their book enough it becomes UNUSUAL WITH AN EXCLUSIVE EFFECT? Wait, if I spend more money I get EXCLUSIVE TAUNTS AND MISC ITEMS TOO??? Only way you'd make more money is if you added a naked anime girl on top.
Valve simply at this point care too much about how the game is played, when they need to be caring about how many people are playing it seriously and the loop towards getting pubbers into playing it seriously. Even if OW barely dropped the overall population of the game by like 3%, the competitive scene in its entirety is very visibly dying with every league losing more and more total teams each season and has been since before OW even came out. Growth needs to be reinvigorated before caring about how the game is played at this point tbh, I mean even if Valve dropped the greatest most perfect balance of all time tomorrow, the comp scene would still be dying basically. Sure, some people would come back for a season or two, but you'd still have the same age old problem, which is that people are leaving because there's nothing to play for. There's love for the game (which doesn't last forever), improving at the game (ditto, especially when there's no real prize pool and now no LAN to improve towards for basically everyone), and love for the community (hit or miss, especially when people will use any defense they can come up with to not be nice and they'd rather drive people away) and that's about it.
[quote=pine_beetle]
I disagree with you on that point. I crunched the numbers very thoroughly few years ago on this... probably still have the draft on an old computer I should check and see With the right prize pool and the right group of people it would work... this is somewhere where you could realistically get Valve to help you ( even though I still don't think we need valves help at all...).
But the whole idea that valve is going to do a bailout of any kind needs to be abandoned. Hope is an excuse for inaction and we spend way to much time hoping for handouts and blaming valve for our own self inflicted problems.[/quote]
Look man, I may not be very good at the shooty shooty part of this game, but I've been around in Highlander for a very long time and this argument is just plain stupid. Not only has the NAHL community discussed this prospect before multiple times and the conclusion has always been the same as what I said, but I'm not sure where the hell your logic of "right prize pool" or "right group of people" come from when there's literal proof that this shit doesn't matter that much in Highlander.
http://imgur.com/eNfERBR
This is the total teams that signed up and played at least 1 match of Highlander since S7 (since S6 and prior isn't on their site). You will notice that Season 12 has a big dip in teams compared to its surrounding seasons. That's the one NAHL season where there was a community prize pool drive for $5,000. Not only did this drive not actually meet its goal (it only reached $3,120), but there was significantly less Steel & Iron teams than the seasons before it.
Now, it was still a fun and great season, don't get me wrong, but this prize pool did not complete its goal. At the time there was a lot of people who just kept going lolhl and crap, even though UGC Highlander & UGC in general has probably fed many players into 6s over the years. It was a Spring season so January - April of 2014 which means most kids had to focus on school or were too busy to dedicate to it (notice how much bigger S10 & S13 are? Those are the summer seasons where there was no school). All the streaming, advertisizing, posts, mentoring goals, etc, could not get this to 5,000 USD and even still with a 3,120 USD one it didn't magically apparate a ton of people into Highlander. This was basically the peak of Highlander's skill level. This was like the best era of Highlander that ever existed.
Soooo, where exactly is this "right prize pool" and "right group of people", because it didn't exist in Highlander's prime time and it did basically nothing for it?
On a side note, the assertion that competitive Team Fortress 2 is dying solely because the community is bad with money and no one in our community assholeish enough came around that wanted to monetize people's passion really really well is kinda gross to think about. Especially when you'd be hard pressed to name a single other big e-sport alive right now that has to do that...because they all have their developers supporting them.
Now, don't get me wrong, I think the community has definitely made missteps along the way, especially with how people are often oblivious to how they act can push people away from the community but it's done a lot of great things too. Tip of the Hats brings a lot of attention to competitive TF2, and while I'm sure it's brought some people in, it hasn't stemmed the bleeding.
I don't expect Valve to drop money and save this game now, but even through all the communities missteps or problems, that is literally all that would have needed to be done all these years. If Valve dropped a tournament with even a minor prize pool of a couple thousand and added a DotA International book like mechanic, people would eat that shit up dude. Pubbers fucking love hats. Now you're telling them spend 10$ and get EXCLUSIVE HATS? And if they level up their book enough it becomes UNUSUAL WITH AN EXCLUSIVE EFFECT? Wait, if I spend more money I get EXCLUSIVE TAUNTS AND MISC ITEMS TOO??? Only way you'd make more money is if you added a naked anime girl on top.
Valve simply at this point care too much about how the game is played, when they need to be caring about how many people are playing it seriously and the loop towards getting pubbers into playing it seriously. Even if OW barely dropped the overall population of the game by like 3%, the competitive scene in its entirety is very visibly dying with every league losing more and more total teams each season and has been since before OW even came out. Growth needs to be reinvigorated before caring about how the game is played at this point tbh, I mean even if Valve dropped the greatest most perfect balance of all time tomorrow, the comp scene would still be dying basically. Sure, some people would come back for a season or two, but you'd still have the same age old problem, which is that [b]people are leaving because there's nothing to play for[/b]. There's love for the game (which doesn't last forever), improving at the game (ditto, especially when there's no real prize pool and now no LAN to improve towards for basically everyone), and love for the community (hit or miss, especially when people will use any defense they can come up with to not be nice and they'd rather drive people away) and that's about it.
I like this Darknecrid. Want to talk privately on steam sometime? I want to pick your brain a bit.
I'm not looking to troll the main thing is and I've repeatedly stated it is don't wait or hope valve is going to do anything. I think it is absolutely possible for the community to spearhead tf2 in a better direction. If I could get my fucking computer to work I'd post my old draft just for information sake.
I like this Darknecrid. Want to talk privately on steam sometime? I want to pick your brain a bit.
I'm not looking to troll the main thing is and I've repeatedly stated it is don't wait or hope valve is going to do anything. I think it is absolutely possible for the community to spearhead tf2 in a better direction. If I could get my fucking computer to work I'd post my old draft just for information sake.
i still think a big reason is that the game feels like such dog shit with default settings that most people just download and play it for a very short time before dismissing it as another dumb free shooter game and they wouldn't consider playing competitively even if valve did a halfway decent job with mm
i still think a big reason is that the game feels like such dog shit with default settings that most people just download and play it for a very short time before dismissing it as another dumb free shooter game and they wouldn't consider playing competitively even if valve did a halfway decent job with mm
shitty default hud, shitty menus, casualized item and crafting system, it just doesn't come off as a competitive game whatsoever
shitty default hud, shitty menus, casualized item and crafting system, it just doesn't come off as a competitive game whatsoever
don't forget absolute garbo net settings. Playing any projectile class with default settings is so much harder than it should be
don't forget absolute garbo net settings. Playing any projectile class with default settings is so much harder than it should be
pine_beetleI'd probably still beat most demos to mid every round but whatever...
I stopped reading your comments after that
[quote=pine_beetle]I'd probably still beat most demos to mid every round but whatever...[/quote]
I stopped reading your comments after that
comp mm:
normal god damn gamecoordinator:
around the same hours spent on game.
strict whitelist and class limit. carefully thought of. like two/three different ones for each weapon slot as maximum. rl, original, shotgun, gunboats, all banners imo or not at all, escape plan, equalizer, pain train.
ability to choose maps. default type 5cp and oldie goldies, no foundry gorge shits.
For now its like 6v6 casual seriously.
i guess most of the people would be happy with that.
from here on, you can fly anywhere.
Tf team might be struggling with outdated main menu programming. Should move on like dota2 and csgo imo.
comp mm:
normal god damn gamecoordinator:
around the same hours spent on game.
strict whitelist and class limit. carefully thought of. like two/three different ones for each weapon slot as maximum. rl, original, shotgun, gunboats, all banners imo or not at all, escape plan, equalizer, pain train.
ability to choose maps. default type 5cp and oldie goldies, no foundry gorge shits.
For now its like 6v6 casual seriously.
i guess most of the people would be happy with that.
from here on, you can fly anywhere.
Tf team might be struggling with outdated main menu programming. Should move on like dota2 and csgo imo.
solais pine beetle a eee alt
I am your alt. I don't think you can fake 12 year old steam accounts but who knows maybe I did.
[quote=sola]is pine beetle a eee alt[/quote]
I am your alt. I don't think you can fake 12 year old steam accounts but who knows maybe I did.
thought I'd compile the important bits for anyone who wants to watch without having to go through the broadcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOYxbdJKnX4
thought I'd compile the important bits for anyone who wants to watch without having to go through the broadcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOYxbdJKnX4
pine_beetlesolais pine beetle a eee alt
I am your alt. I don't think you can fake 12 year old steam accounts but who knows maybe I did.
you sound more like someone who would buy a 12 year old account, like the fuccbois in csgo who used to buy low digit steam accounts
prove me wrong, never heard of you, and im old as fuck
[quote=pine_beetle][quote=sola]is pine beetle a eee alt[/quote]
I am your alt. I don't think you can fake 12 year old steam accounts but who knows maybe I did.[/quote]
you sound more like someone who would buy a 12 year old account, like the fuccbois in csgo who used to buy low digit steam accounts
prove me wrong, never heard of you, and im old as fuck
treetoonthought I'd compile the important bits for anyone who wants to watch without having to go through the broadcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOYxbdJKnX4
that last moment on egypt is pretty sad tbh
[quote=treetoon]thought I'd compile the important bits for anyone who wants to watch without having to go through the broadcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOYxbdJKnX4[/quote]
that last moment on egypt is pretty sad tbh
Not to dumb down the voices of people who have previously expressed very similar feelings about this like WAR has, but to see someone that's usually really cheerful and charismatic to sound so upset and frustrated at this whole flop, it's such a tough pill to swallow. I would say that Valve needs a miracle to launch a matchmaking update that works or to put the competitive community in the spotlight, but the truth and the worst part is they really don't need one. They already have the pieces and the instruction guide on how to build it, though it feels like they've just decided to ignore both instead.
Not to dumb down the voices of people who have previously expressed very similar feelings about this like WAR has, but to see someone that's usually really cheerful and charismatic to sound so upset and frustrated at this whole flop, it's such a tough pill to swallow. I would say that Valve needs a miracle to launch a matchmaking update that works or to put the competitive community in the spotlight, but the truth and the worst part is they really don't need one. They already have the pieces and the instruction guide on how to build it, though it feels like they've just decided to ignore both instead.