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Marathon and Weight Training
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#1
0 Frags +

This is about as unusual a topic I can write, but I've been marathon training for the better part of 7 months now, and part of me feels I'm plateauing at a half marathon (13 miles, 21 k). My running schedule is nearly daily.

For reference: I'm 5'10", 23 years old, and I weigh 157 lbs. My waist circumference is around 30 inches. I eat well when I remember to eat, with lots of proteins and whole grains, and I do try and consistently vary my training with sprints and distance running and weird things like running backwards. And yet, I'm stuck at 13 miles. Not even consistently, on a bad day, I have trouble breaking 9 miles and I have no idea why. I have recently been sick with the flu, and my back muscles have begun to atrophy on me so I have added situps and weight training to my regiment with hopes of strengthening my upper body, my spine and losing another 11 lbs over time. I have never been very strong in the upper body and I'm currently doing reps with about 15 lbs per arm. Situps have always come easy for me, my back is just killing me and gives out occasionally during the day.

The question in short is: How do I break the 13 mile barrier, and the second is am I overworking myself? I guess the latter is hard to say when people aren't familiar with me, but I'm not sure when I'm "feeling the burn" vs "destroying my body".

This is about as unusual a topic I can write, but I've been marathon training for the better part of 7 months now, and part of me feels I'm plateauing at a half marathon (13 miles, 21 k). My running schedule is nearly daily.

For reference: I'm 5'10", 23 years old, and I weigh 157 lbs. My waist circumference is around 30 inches. I eat well when I remember to eat, with lots of proteins and whole grains, and I do try and consistently vary my training with sprints and distance running and weird things like running backwards. And yet, I'm stuck at 13 miles. Not even consistently, on a bad day, I have trouble breaking 9 miles and I have no idea why. I have recently been sick with the flu, and my back muscles have begun to atrophy on me so I have added situps and weight training to my regiment with hopes of strengthening my upper body, my spine and losing another 11 lbs over time. I have never been very strong in the upper body and I'm currently doing reps with about 15 lbs per arm. Situps have always come easy for me, my back is just killing me and gives out occasionally during the day.

The question in short is: How do I break the 13 mile barrier, and the second is am I overworking myself? I guess the latter is hard to say when people aren't familiar with me, but I'm not sure when I'm "feeling the burn" vs "destroying my body".
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#2
3 Frags +

You shouldn't weight train and run a lot daily. Sounds a lot like overtraining to me. If you're trying to strengthen your back, you should be doing deadlifts. If you do deadlifts, you must rest the following day, especially starting out. Maybe try to only lift and do little running for a week or 2 and then attempt again. I don't know shit and recommend talking to a physical therapist/sports coach/some professional who can actually prepare you for a marathon properly though

You shouldn't weight train and run a lot daily. Sounds a lot like overtraining to me. If you're trying to strengthen your back, you should be doing deadlifts. If you do deadlifts, you must rest the following day, especially starting out. Maybe try to only lift and do little running for a week or 2 and then attempt again. I don't know shit and recommend talking to a physical therapist/sports coach/some professional who can actually prepare you for a marathon properly though
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#3
2 Frags +

theres been a big shift in distance run training, previously it was thought better to do low intensity high frequency and volume training, but that has shown to be ineffective and unsustainable as it has a high injury rate. most top distance running coaches are switching to a low volume high intensity training. also remember this, a runner who runs for 10 years is a better runner then a runner who runs for 7 months, take things slow. unlike football or baseball or any of those big sports, you can continue to run competitively for decades to come my friend, you are overtraininig if you are atrophing, so back off, you wont get better overnight but over time. i wouldnt do this alone, i would get a coach personally.

theres been a big shift in distance run training, previously it was thought better to do low intensity high frequency and volume training, but that has shown to be ineffective and unsustainable as it has a high injury rate. most top distance running coaches are switching to a low volume high intensity training. also remember this, a runner who runs for 10 years is a better runner then a runner who runs for 7 months, take things slow. unlike football or baseball or any of those big sports, you can continue to run competitively for decades to come my friend, you are overtraininig if you are atrophing, so back off, you wont get better overnight but over time. i wouldnt do this alone, i would get a coach personally.
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#4
0 Frags +

Thanks for the responses. I have run competitively since highschool but nothing quite at this volume of distance or intensity. I'll try and regulate my training to have more rest days and higher intensity shorter workouts. I'll also talk to some trainers locally if I can find anyone willing to work with me. And I'll look into proper deadlift technique. Thanks again.

Thanks for the responses. I have run competitively since highschool but nothing quite at this volume of distance or intensity. I'll try and regulate my training to have more rest days and higher intensity shorter workouts. I'll also talk to some trainers locally if I can find anyone willing to work with me. And I'll look into proper deadlift technique. Thanks again.
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#5
0 Frags +

You are probably over training. What you should be doing is running one day and then doing upper body/ core the next day and alternate. Also you shouldn't be running over 10 miles every session. Usually what I do is about 7 miles on running day and then one day a week step it up to 10 miles. This is pretty much the same way marathon runners train. They don't run marathons every day they do smaller distances but build up for a push day in which they run a marathon. Another tip is to focus not on distance, but to focus on running consistent sector/mile times. Many people who injure or tire themselves out usually start our fast and then peter out but what you really need to be doing is pacing yourself and setting goals in terms of running consistently across the whole run at a higher pace. Improving your consistent pace also takes a long time, even more than just achieving distance goals. Also on running days make sure to carb load and you can even try running with one of those water packs because you may be hitting a hydration wall during your longer runs.

You are probably over training. What you should be doing is running one day and then doing upper body/ core the next day and alternate. Also you shouldn't be running over 10 miles every session. Usually what I do is about 7 miles on running day and then one day a week step it up to 10 miles. This is pretty much the same way marathon runners train. They don't run marathons every day they do smaller distances but build up for a push day in which they run a marathon. Another tip is to focus not on distance, but to focus on running consistent sector/mile times. Many people who injure or tire themselves out usually start our fast and then peter out but what you really need to be doing is pacing yourself and setting goals in terms of running consistently across the whole run at a higher pace. Improving your consistent pace also takes a long time, even more than just achieving distance goals. Also on running days make sure to carb load and you can even try running with one of those water packs because you may be hitting a hydration wall during your longer runs.
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#6
0 Frags +

train / workout every other day

train / workout every other day
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#7
3 Frags +
deykuzor I have never been very strong in the upper body and I'm currently doing reps with about 15 lbs per arm. Situps have always come easy for me, my back is just killing me and gives out occasionally during the day.

Reps of what? If your goal is getting stronger and improving your overall health stop doing a bunch of isolation exercises (which beginners to weight training focus WAY too much on) and switch to compound exercises for your back like rows, deadlifts, and pullups (if you are strong enough)

[quote=deykuzor] I have never been very strong in the upper body and I'm currently doing reps with about 15 lbs per arm. Situps have always come easy for me, my back is just killing me and gives out occasionally during the day.
[/quote]
Reps of what? If your goal is getting stronger and improving your overall health stop doing a bunch of isolation exercises (which beginners to weight training focus WAY too much on) and switch to compound exercises for your back like rows, deadlifts, and pullups (if you are strong enough)
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#8
0 Frags +
Huckdeykuzor I have never been very strong in the upper body and I'm currently doing reps with about 15 lbs per arm. Situps have always come easy for me, my back is just killing me and gives out occasionally during the day.Reps of what? If your goal is getting stronger and improving your overall health stop doing a bunch of isolation exercises (which beginners to weight training focus WAY too much on) and switch to compound exercises for your back like rows, deadlifts, and pullups (if you are strong enough)

Ah yeah, I'm probably doing too much isolation training if you put it that way. I have been mostly doing curls, overhead extensions, dips and press downs.

[quote=Huck][quote=deykuzor] I have never been very strong in the upper body and I'm currently doing reps with about 15 lbs per arm. Situps have always come easy for me, my back is just killing me and gives out occasionally during the day.
[/quote]
Reps of what? If your goal is getting stronger and improving your overall health stop doing a bunch of isolation exercises (which beginners to weight training focus WAY too much on) and switch to compound exercises for your back like rows, deadlifts, and pullups (if you are strong enough)[/quote]


Ah yeah, I'm probably doing too much isolation training if you put it that way. I have been mostly doing curls, overhead extensions, dips and press downs.
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#9
3 Frags +

If you need a break from running due to joint soreness etc swimming will really help your core strength and cardio capacity.

If you need a break from running due to joint soreness etc swimming will really help your core strength and cardio capacity.
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#10
0 Frags +
loljkYou are probably over training. What you should be doing is running one day and then doing upper body/ core the next day and alternate. Also you shouldn't be running over 10 miles every session. Usually what I do is about 7 miles on running day and then one day a week step it up to 10 miles. This is pretty much the same way marathon runners train. They don't run marathons every day they do smaller distances but build up for a push day in which they run a marathon. Another tip is to focus not on distance, but to focus on running consistent sector/mile times. Many people who injure or tire themselves out usually start our fast and then peter out but what you really need to be doing is pacing yourself and setting goals in terms of running consistently across the whole run at a higher pace. Improving your consistent pace also takes a long time, even more than just achieving distance goals. Also on running days make sure to carb load and you can even try running with one of those water packs because you may be hitting a hydration wall during your longer runs.

I'll look into ways to hydrate and give myself something to eat during longer runs, that could very well be part of the problem. I'll also stay sub 10 miles for shorter days then.

[quote=loljk]You are probably over training. What you should be doing is running one day and then doing upper body/ core the next day and alternate. Also you shouldn't be running over 10 miles every session. Usually what I do is about 7 miles on running day and then one day a week step it up to 10 miles. This is pretty much the same way marathon runners train. They don't run marathons every day they do smaller distances but build up for a push day in which they run a marathon. Another tip is to focus not on distance, but to focus on running consistent sector/mile times. Many people who injure or tire themselves out usually start our fast and then peter out but what you really need to be doing is pacing yourself and setting goals in terms of running consistently across the whole run at a higher pace. Improving your consistent pace also takes a long time, even more than just achieving distance goals. Also on running days make sure to carb load and you can even try running with one of those water packs because you may be hitting a hydration wall during your longer runs.[/quote]

I'll look into ways to hydrate and give myself something to eat during longer runs, that could very well be part of the problem. I'll also stay sub 10 miles for shorter days then.
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#11
0 Frags +

#9. It may be funny to say this since I live in Hawaii, but it's surprisingly hard to swim here. Beaches tend to overcrowd and pools tend to require membership and the like.

#9. It may be funny to say this since I live in Hawaii, but it's surprisingly hard to swim here. Beaches tend to overcrowd and pools tend to require membership and the like.
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#12
0 Frags +

for running do hiit (high intensity interval training) and you'll have better workouts in general. as others have said, compound exercises are definitely preferred when trying to develop general strength and fitness. also if you shouldn't be stuck at a distance unless you have a set pace. like assuming you're not extremely unfit you could run more than 13 miles, you're just going too fast

for running do hiit (high intensity interval training) and you'll have better workouts in general. as others have said, compound exercises are definitely preferred when trying to develop general strength and fitness. also if you shouldn't be stuck at a distance unless you have a set pace. like assuming you're not extremely unfit you could run more than 13 miles, you're just going too fast
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#13
0 Frags +

I run a 7 to 9 minute pace so that's possible. It may be too fast for the distance I'm trying to cover right now.

I run a 7 to 9 minute pace so that's possible. It may be too fast for the distance I'm trying to cover right now.
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#14
0 Frags +

yeah like if you wanna hit top distance you should be going 10 minute pace, probably even slower. it's worth noting though that max distance is an arbitrary goal to strive towards, and that fast 5k or quarter marathon times are better things to measure your progress by

yeah like if you wanna hit top distance you should be going 10 minute pace, probably even slower. it's worth noting though that max distance is an arbitrary goal to strive towards, and that fast 5k or quarter marathon times are better things to measure your progress by
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#15
1 Frags +

First of all, where do you live in Hawaii? Depending on where, you might want to attribute your struggles to weather.

Let me preface this with the fact that I've been running 6 years, and I've been alright.
Diets, training, sleep and stress are all highly connected to success or lack of it.
Balanced meals and 8+ hours of sleep are a barrier preventing most people from reaching peak performance.
As for training, it's important to cross train (bike or swim) at least 1 day a week.
It's important to find your "aerobic threshold" or the pace at which you can sustain while not breathing too hard.
Staying below that for your recovery and long runs is an easy way to avoid overtraining.

I could talk about this stuff for hours so add me my man

First of all, where do you live in Hawaii? Depending on where, you might want to attribute your struggles to weather.

Let me preface this with the fact that I've been running 6 years, and I've been alright.
Diets, training, sleep and stress are all highly connected to success or lack of it.
Balanced meals and 8+ hours of sleep are a barrier preventing most people from reaching peak performance.
As for training, it's important to cross train (bike or swim) at least 1 day a week.
It's important to find your "aerobic threshold" or the pace at which you can sustain while not breathing too hard.
Staying below that for your recovery and long runs is an easy way to avoid overtraining.

I could talk about this stuff for hours so add me my man
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#16
0 Frags +

Strength training:

5x5 or 3x3.

Bench, Squat, Row, Press and Deadlift.

Compound lifts are your friend.

Train / Rest / Train etc...

Try to work this around your running schedule. Just make sure you're getting enough meals in.

Strength training:

5x5 or 3x3.

Bench, Squat, Row, Press and Deadlift.

Compound lifts are your friend.

Train / Rest / Train etc...

Try to work this around your running schedule. Just make sure you're getting enough meals in.
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#17
0 Frags +

I've been training for a half marathon.

I am 5'9" and weigh ~140 pounds.

I use the hal higdon training programs, they are great: http://www.halhigdon.com/

As you are able to run 9 miles, I would try and use his endurance training to increase your distance. Make sure that you are taking rest days and ample cross training. Cycling, Swimming, etc.

Good luck on your training and keep running!

I've been training for a half marathon.

I am 5'9" and weigh ~140 pounds.

I use the hal higdon training programs, they are great: http://www.halhigdon.com/

As you are able to run 9 miles, I would try and use his endurance training to increase your distance. Make sure that you are taking rest days and ample cross training. Cycling, Swimming, etc.

Good luck on your training and keep running!
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#18
0 Frags +

Tbh if it's weight training I'd recommend 5x5. Article here: http://stronglifts.com/5x5/.

Just remember that WHATEVER you do doing it every day isn't a great idea.

Tbh if it's weight training I'd recommend 5x5. Article here: http://stronglifts.com/5x5/.

Just remember that WHATEVER you do doing it every day isn't a great idea.
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#19
0 Frags +

Relaxing and letting the body recover is more important than you'd think

Relaxing and letting the body recover is more important than you'd think
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#20
0 Frags +

Maybe think about adding some distance workouts into your schedule. Exercises like tempo runs and fartleks will probably help more than weightlifting as marathon training. Of course if you can fit in both that's even better.

Maybe think about adding some distance workouts into your schedule. Exercises like tempo runs and fartleks will probably help more than weightlifting as marathon training. Of course if you can fit in both that's even better.
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#21
0 Frags +

Thanks again everyone. I am in Honolulu right now, but I used to live on a different island and I train there too when I go home for break. I'm not sure how much weather is affecting me at all #15.

Everyone recommending cross training, I can try. I'll look into getting a bike or swimming more or something. All the workout recommendations and training regiments that are being suggested I am taking into consideration but I do know that everyone is different. Thanks for all the advice and encouragement.

Thanks again everyone. I am in Honolulu right now, but I used to live on a different island and I train there too when I go home for break. I'm not sure how much weather is affecting me at all #15.

Everyone recommending cross training, I can try. I'll look into getting a bike or swimming more or something. All the workout recommendations and training regiments that are being suggested I am taking into consideration but I do know that everyone is different. Thanks for all the advice and encouragement.
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#22
0 Frags +

Just do SS/SL if you want to work up to a base level of muscle tone, especially for a sport. Its relatively easy to work into another training program and the volume is low enough that you wont kill yourself for your running the next day. I'm not well read at all on running, but a beginner strength routine will increase leg strength which is obviously good but also do wonders for things like posture and balance, which can help with form in any sport. If you're eating enough, you should be able to train 4-6x a week for 90-120 minutes a day easily, but you won't be anywhere near your best.

If you wanna get serious, start tracking calories and macronutrients. The difference is pretty noticeable when you take it seriously.

Just do SS/SL if you want to work up to a base level of muscle tone, especially for a sport. Its relatively easy to work into another training program and the volume is low enough that you wont kill yourself for your running the next day. I'm not well read at all on running, but a beginner strength routine will increase leg strength which is obviously good but also do wonders for things like posture and balance, which can help with form in any sport. If you're eating enough, you should be able to train 4-6x a week for 90-120 minutes a day easily, but you won't be anywhere near your best.

If you wanna get serious, start tracking calories and macronutrients. The difference is pretty noticeable when you take it seriously.
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#23
1 Frags +

You should never run 10 miles the day after any leg workout or anything that includes squats or deadlifts.

You should [b]never[/b] run 10 miles the day after any leg workout or anything that includes squats or deadlifts.
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#24
1 Frags +

from what you are writing, you are focusing on distance way too much.

I'd suggest you try to focus on time running more. Also for me (and im tempted to say in general) it is better to focus on HeartRate rather than pace.

so for example a Training Week could be something like this:

Monday: Rest
Tuedsday: Run - 60Min, HR ~160 (which is roughly 75-80% of my MAX HR)
Wednesday: Rest
Thrusday: Fartlek ~50min
Friday: Run - 40min, HR ~160
Saturday: Rest
Sunday: Long Run: 90min, HR ~150-160

So by Training with time and HR, I am gradually improving distance/pace.
I am currently running 90mins at around 5:40/km (thats close to 16km) quite comfortably.

Anyways, try to practice for a given time and build endurance rather than running way too fast with a distance goal.

while running you can eat those: click

from what you are writing, you are focusing on distance way too much.

I'd suggest you try to focus on time running more. Also for me (and im tempted to say in general) it is better to focus on HeartRate rather than pace.

so for example a Training Week could be something like this:

Monday: Rest
Tuedsday: Run - 60Min, HR ~160 (which is roughly 75-80% of my MAX HR)
Wednesday: Rest
Thrusday: Fartlek ~50min
Friday: Run - 40min, HR ~160
Saturday: Rest
Sunday: Long Run: 90min, HR ~150-160

So by Training with time and HR, I am gradually improving distance/pace.
I am currently running 90mins at around 5:40/km (thats close to 16km) quite comfortably.

Anyways, try to practice for a given time and build endurance rather than running way too fast with a distance goal.

while running you can eat those: [url=https://peterslaufblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/powerbar-gel-c2max-zoom1.jpg]click[/url]
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#25
1 Frags +

I used to cross country ski at a very high level and still coach athletes in endurance sports. At the peak of my training I would regularly run for 1.5-2 hours every morning then do a 2 hour non-running target workout in the afternoon, so it is completely possible. I have a few pointers:

1. If you can ever possibly avoid running on pavement or concrete, do it. It absolutely destroys your body regardless of how fast or slow you run. My runs were always on grass or on trails. Running on pavement severely reduces how far you can go in a single session and causes overuse injuries.

2. Long and slow is the way to go. HIIT is good for developing your lactate threshold and maximal oxygen uptake, but the single best way to increase endurance is Level 1 training (50-60% of your max HR is a good general rule of thumb). This builds your heart's stroke volume, lungs' oxygen delivery to your bloodstream, and most importantly it increases your capillary density.

3. Far too many runners train in Levels 2-3 (60% of Max HR - HR at which LT occurs). This gives gains somewhat quickly but after about a month it is a no-man's land for physiological gains. This is where high school runners train every single day in my experience.

4. If you say you run 7-9 minute miles, shoot for 9-10 minutes per mile in your long runs. It feels wrong to run this slow, but this is probably your Level 1, where you increase your aerobic capacity and muscular endurance.

5. Sprinkle in 1-2 high-intensity sessions per week. Lactate threshold training should use something like 3 x 6-8 minute intervals just at or over your LT, with 3-4 minutes recovery in between. VO2 max intervals are more like 6 x 2-4 minute intervals with equal recovery in between. You should be nearly on your knees after these ones.

Don't let anyone tell you that you can't or shouldn't be running ~10 miles everyday. I have about 20 high schoolers doing it and they are turning into monsters and staying healthy. I just strongly suspect that you are going WAY too hard and may be on pavement. You should be able to very easily have a conversation while you are on most of your runs. The hardest part is actually teaching yourself to slow down to the appropriate pace for physiological changes to happen. It feels too slow, but faster is definitely not always better in endurance running. Best of luck!

Edit: I agree with the person above who said run for time, not distance. Don't focus on your pace or distance while you run, just go have fun for 60 or 90 minutes and enjoy exploring.

Edit2: You should always take 1 day completely off of training no matter what. Not even a 30 minute run.

I used to cross country ski at a very high level and still coach athletes in endurance sports. At the peak of my training I would regularly run for 1.5-2 hours every morning then do a 2 hour non-running target workout in the afternoon, so it is completely possible. I have a few pointers:


1. If you can ever possibly avoid running on pavement or concrete, [b]do it[/b]. It absolutely destroys your body regardless of how fast or slow you run. My runs were always on grass or on trails. Running on pavement severely reduces how far you can go in a single session and causes overuse injuries.

2. Long and slow is the way to go. HIIT is good for developing your lactate threshold and maximal oxygen uptake, but the single best way to increase endurance is Level 1 training (50-60% of your max HR is a good general rule of thumb). This builds your heart's stroke volume, lungs' oxygen delivery to your bloodstream, and most importantly it increases your capillary density.

3. Far too many runners train in Levels 2-3 (60% of Max HR - HR at which LT occurs). This gives gains somewhat quickly but after about a month it is a no-man's land for physiological gains. This is where high school runners train every single day in my experience.

4. If you say you run 7-9 minute miles, shoot for 9-10 minutes per mile in your long runs. It feels wrong to run this slow, but this is probably your Level 1, where you increase your aerobic capacity and muscular endurance.

5. Sprinkle in 1-2 high-intensity sessions per week. Lactate threshold training should use something like 3 x 6-8 minute intervals just at or over your LT, with 3-4 minutes recovery in between. VO2 max intervals are more like 6 x 2-4 minute intervals with equal recovery in between. You should be nearly on your knees after these ones.


Don't let anyone tell you that you can't or shouldn't be running ~10 miles everyday. I have about 20 high schoolers doing it and they are turning into monsters and staying healthy. I just strongly suspect that you are going WAY too hard and may be on pavement. You should be able to very easily have a conversation while you are on most of your runs. The hardest part is actually teaching yourself to slow down to the appropriate pace for physiological changes to happen. It feels too slow, but faster is definitely not always better in endurance running. Best of luck!

Edit: I agree with the person above who said run for time, not distance. Don't focus on your pace or distance while you run, just go have fun for 60 or 90 minutes and enjoy exploring.

Edit2: You should always take 1 day completely off of training no matter what. Not even a 30 minute run.
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#26
0 Frags +
Huckpullups (if you are strong enough)

how do i archieve that?

[quote=Huck]pullups (if you are strong enough)[/quote] how do i archieve that?
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#27
-1 Frags +

If you are smart and not dumb you will use every single day as an opportunity to get better and kick ass in the marathon. Good luck dude!

If you are smart and not dumb you will use every single day as an opportunity to get better and kick ass in the marathon. Good luck dude!
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#28
0 Frags +

Thanks for the advice on pacing. Also I like to think I'm reasonably intelligent at the very least. Thanks for the support!

Thanks for the advice on pacing. Also I like to think I'm reasonably intelligent at the very least. Thanks for the support!
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#29
-1 Frags +
the301stspartanYou should never run 10 miles the day after any leg workout or anything that includes squats or deadlifts.

thats bs, it depends entirely on the intensity of the workouts

[quote=the301stspartan]You should [b]never[/b] run 10 miles the day after any leg workout or anything that includes squats or deadlifts.[/quote]
thats bs, it depends entirely on the intensity of the workouts
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#30
0 Frags +

If you squat so light that you can run 10 miles the next day and not fuck with your progress, I don't think you can call it a workout

If you squat so light that you can run 10 miles the next day and not fuck with your progress, I don't think you can call it a workout
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