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We need to encourage TF2 map makers!
1
#1
0 Frags +

What if TF2 leagues (such as ETF2L or ESEA) or even just the 6s community incentive map makers from the whole and bigger tf2 pub community -particulary from TF2Maps.net- to make maps that fit in the 6s style with prizes & awards if their creations are played a certain amount of times in big leagues (2 times?).

Would be cool to have some sort of support for the creators after a certain map is getting played a lot such as an unofficial map stamp support.

Otherwise we can announce a contest on TF2Maps.net and see what comes out, maybe helping them giving some sort of drafts to use or just an early project to start with like they did with Art Pass Contest in the far 2010.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Abm5cswTKcg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=31&v=BQGgMSDJAVc

Sorry if you find this thread quite unnecessary, but I feel the need of something different that gives 6s some breath of fresh air not only with more permissive whitelists or new leagues.

What if TF2 leagues (such as ETF2L or ESEA) or even just the 6s community incentive map makers from the whole and bigger tf2 pub community -particulary from TF2Maps.net- to make maps that fit in the 6s style with prizes & awards if their creations are played a certain amount of times in big leagues (2 times?).

Would be cool to have some sort of support for the creators after a certain map is getting played a lot such as an unofficial [url=https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Map_Stamp]map stamp[/url] support.

Otherwise we can announce a contest on TF2Maps.net and see what comes out, maybe helping them giving some sort of drafts to use or just an early project to start with like they did with [url=https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Art_Pass_Contest]Art Pass Contest[/url] in the far 2010.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Abm5cswTKcg[/youtube]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=31&v=BQGgMSDJAVc[/youtube]

Sorry if you find this thread quite unnecessary, but I feel the need of something different that gives 6s some breath of fresh air not only with more permissive whitelists or new leagues.
2
#2
13 Frags +

this is an excellant idea because im sick of playing the same old same old maps all the time, people hate on sunshine but i like playing it because its like the only new map i get to play

this is an excellant idea because im sick of playing the same old same old maps all the time, people hate on sunshine but i like playing it because its like the only new map i get to play
3
#3
21 Frags +

Also please tell them the skybox needs to be high, and not so cramped like on old maps. The only feeling that can compare to almost hitting a huge airshot and a scout stealing it, is seeing it almost hit and the enemy just bouncing of the ceiling

Also please tell them the skybox needs to be high, and not so cramped like on old maps. The only feeling that can compare to almost hitting a huge airshot and a scout stealing it, is seeing it almost hit and the enemy just bouncing of the ceiling
4
#4
21 Frags +

a big problem is a lot of the workshop artists have left mapping to make hats, its more profitable, substantially more profitable, easier, and less time consuming.

it's really on valve to make it more appealing so the mapping talents come back (Icarus, Nineaxis, MangyCarface, Acegikmo, etc)

Another issue is tf2maps a pub community, they get their panties in a bunch when you mention 6v6 balance. I used to be an admin for them but then some of their members lost their shit when i suggested we turn off crits during playtesting.

a big problem is a lot of the workshop artists have left mapping to make hats, its more profitable, substantially more profitable, easier, and less time consuming.

it's really on valve to make it more appealing so the mapping talents come back (Icarus, Nineaxis, MangyCarface, Acegikmo, etc)

Another issue is tf2maps a pub community, they get their panties in a bunch when you mention 6v6 balance. I used to be an admin for them but then some of their members lost their shit when i suggested we turn off crits during playtesting.
5
#5
2 Frags +

I've always wanted to try and make a map haven't had the time or patience to yet though.

I've always wanted to try and make a map haven't had the time or patience to yet though.
6
#6
7 Frags +

Is there like a list of things people want in 6s maps or something?
I have 0 experience in making anything but it'd be fun to toy around in.

Is there like a list of things people want in 6s maps or something?
I have 0 experience in making anything but it'd be fun to toy around in.
7
#7
4 Frags +
matchuIs there like a list of things people want in 6s maps or something?
I have 0 experience in making anything but it'd be fun to toy around in.

Personally I'd like to see a new gamemode in 6s that isn't koth or cp. Either that or a new koth map.

[quote=matchu]Is there like a list of things people want in 6s maps or something?
I have 0 experience in making anything but it'd be fun to toy around in.[/quote]
Personally I'd like to see a new gamemode in 6s that isn't koth or cp. Either that or a new koth map.
8
#8
16 Frags +

Making a brand new map takes tons of time just to get it to a very basic playable state, then after that comes all kinds of bug fixes and changes. However, making a pro version of a map requires a lot less time and talent than making a new map takes. There are already plenty of maps out there that could possibly be used if they were changed around a bit, one that comes to mind is cp_mountainlab. Recently Maela made a case for this map to be play tested on his stream and someone from his stream decided to start working on a pro version of the map.
I guess what I am trying to say is, as a community, should we focus on introducing completely new maps or making pro versions of already existing maps. I'm not saying we can't do both, but is there one that we should focus on doing?

Also, if there are maps that you think would be good in 6s if a pro version existed, please post them here and maybe someone can take a look at them or we can discuss things about them.

Making a brand new map takes tons of time just to get it to a very basic playable state, then after that comes all kinds of bug fixes and changes. However, making a pro version of a map requires a lot less time and talent than making a new map takes. There are already plenty of maps out there that could possibly be used if they were changed around a bit, one that comes to mind is cp_mountainlab. Recently Maela made a case for this map to be play tested on his stream and someone from his stream decided to start working on a pro version of the map.
I guess what I am trying to say is, as a community, should we focus on introducing completely new maps or making pro versions of already existing maps. I'm not saying we can't do both, but is there one that we should focus on doing?

Also, if there are maps that you think would be good in 6s if a pro version existed, please post them here and maybe someone can take a look at them or we can discuss things about them.
9
#9
1 Frags +
flameAnother issue is tf2maps a pub community, they get their panties in a bunch when you mention 6v6 balance. I used to be an admin for them but then some of their members lost their shit when i suggested we turn off crits during playtesting.

this is more or less what i ran into. i wanted to make a koth map designed for 6v6, optionally with 9v9 in mind.
but after a playtest, almost no feedback was helpful or relevant. it was a1, and most of the critique i got was aimed at the looks of the map..

so i entered the tf2maps-chat on Steam to talk about it, but after i mentioned competitive, they were just dismissive and unhelpful.
and i guess can't blame'em, most of them probably just want to make and support pretty maps.

anyway, i didn't know where else to take the map, so the project just went to sleep. tf2maps didn't seem reliable if you specifically have competitive in mind.
which is a shame because i was having a blast, and all i really needed was a few pairs of objective eyes, looking through the 6v6-glass.

[quote=flame]Another issue is tf2maps a pub community, they get their panties in a bunch when you mention 6v6 balance. I used to be an admin for them but then some of their members lost their shit when i suggested we turn off crits during playtesting.[/quote]

this is more or less what i ran into. i wanted to make a koth map designed for 6v6, optionally with 9v9 in mind.
but after a playtest, almost no feedback was helpful or relevant. it was [b]a1[/b], and most of the critique i got was aimed at the looks of the map..

so i entered the tf2maps-chat on Steam to talk about it, but after i mentioned competitive, they were just dismissive and unhelpful.
and i guess can't blame'em, most of them probably just want to make and support pretty maps.

anyway, i didn't know where else to take the map, so the project just went to sleep. tf2maps didn't seem reliable if you specifically have competitive in mind.
which is a shame because i was having a blast, and all i really needed was a few pairs of objective eyes, looking through the 6v6-glass.
10
#10
2 Frags +
matchuIs there like a list of things people want in 6s maps or something?
I have 0 experience in making anything but it'd be fun to toy around in.

idk alot about maps but maybe having positive areas for each class would be something to keep in mind? ie. chokes for sollys and demos to add damage on, areas scattered with alot of props for scouts and shit, and a long hallway or two for snipers and offclasses in mind

[quote=matchu]Is there like a list of things people want in 6s maps or something?
I have 0 experience in making anything but it'd be fun to toy around in.[/quote]

idk alot about maps but maybe having positive areas for each class would be something to keep in mind? ie. chokes for sollys and demos to add damage on, areas scattered with alot of props for scouts and shit, and a long hallway or two for snipers and offclasses in mind
11
#11
cp_sunshine, cp_cardinal
85 Frags +

Creator of Sunshine here.

The main issue I find with my fellow mapmakers is that they're very discouraged from making maps for comp due to the high level of antipathy players tend to have towards them. I've experienced it firsthand - throughout the >2 year development cycle of Sunshine, I've had literally hundreds upon hundreds of people telling me my work is shit, giving me no advice on how to improve it, telling me it's worthless and a ripoff of other maps.

Mapmakers don't want to hear that.

Don't blame us for not making maps - blame the inconsistent testing groups, assholes who will take every opportunity to talk down custom maps without giving any feedback (mustard, I'm looking at you), etc. You can't expect mapmakers to make a perfect map from iteration one. It doesn't happen. Not everyone can be Scorpio. Even Scorpio isn't perfect.

If you want more maps, support map testing groups. Show up to tests. Support people giving constructive feedback, and get rid of assholes quickly. A few weeks ago some map pug group ran Edifice and I stepped in to listen, first thing I was greeted with was a group of people who ran around the map and proceeded to shit all over it. They didn't give any constructive feedback. They just said over and over again how terrible it looked.

Don't blame TF2Maps.net for not wanting to map for comp when every time they try to, they're greeted with people telling them their map is shit.

I'm making another 5cp map right now (see: http://tf2maps.net/threads/wildlife.23624/ ) but I'm hesitant to bring it over to comp. I don't think people will give me good enough feedback for it to be worth it. Can people change enough for mappers to care again? I don't know.

Sunshine was a huge step for custom maps and I'm currently in the process of writing a "5cp guidelines for comp" sort of article for tf2maps.net, so as to maybe encourage people to get back into comp. It can't be only the mapmakers effort, though. The community as a whole needs to change their outlook. Embrace maps like Sunshine and Logjam, don't constantly shit all over them without actually providing feedback. Mapping takes time, lots and lots of time, and mapmakers like me and Hyce don't get paid at all for the years of work we're putting into our maps. I have not got a single bit of monetary compensation for sunshine, I spent tireless hours over 2 years putting it together. Don't blame us. We're trying.

Creator of Sunshine here.

The main issue I find with my fellow mapmakers is that they're very discouraged from making maps for comp due to the high level of antipathy players tend to have towards them. I've experienced it firsthand - throughout the >2 year development cycle of Sunshine, I've had literally hundreds upon hundreds of people telling me my work is shit, giving me no advice on how to improve it, telling me it's worthless and a ripoff of other maps.

Mapmakers don't want to hear that.

Don't blame us for not making maps - blame the inconsistent testing groups, assholes who will take every opportunity to talk down custom maps without giving any feedback (mustard, I'm looking at you), etc. You can't expect mapmakers to make a perfect map from iteration one. [u]It doesn't happen.[/u] Not everyone can be Scorpio. Even Scorpio isn't perfect.

If you want more maps, support map testing groups. Show up to tests. Support people giving constructive feedback, and get rid of assholes quickly. A few weeks ago some map pug group ran Edifice and I stepped in to listen, first thing I was greeted with was a group of people who ran around the map and proceeded to shit all over it. They didn't give any constructive feedback. They just said over and over again how terrible it looked.

Don't blame TF2Maps.net for not wanting to map for comp when every time they try to, they're greeted with people telling them their map is shit.

I'm making another 5cp map right now (see: http://tf2maps.net/threads/wildlife.23624/ ) but I'm hesitant to bring it over to comp. I don't think people will give me good enough feedback for it to be worth it. Can people change enough for mappers to care again? I don't know.

Sunshine was a huge step for custom maps and I'm currently in the process of writing a "5cp guidelines for comp" sort of article for tf2maps.net, so as to maybe encourage people to get back into comp. It can't be only the mapmakers effort, though. The community as a whole needs to change their outlook. Embrace maps like Sunshine and Logjam, don't constantly shit all over them without actually providing feedback. Mapping takes time, lots and lots of time, and mapmakers like me and Hyce don't get paid at all for the years of work we're putting into our maps. I have not got a single bit of monetary compensation for sunshine, I spent tireless hours over 2 years putting it together. Don't blame us. We're trying.
12
#12
32 Frags +

we truthfully don't need maps made, we should just be fixing old maps. even if it's a massive overhaul (like yukon needs) or smaller changes to 2nd/last (warmfront...that mid was soooooooooo good) it's a shitload easier than starting from scratch.

we truthfully don't need maps made, we should just be fixing old maps. even if it's a massive overhaul (like yukon needs) or smaller changes to 2nd/last (warmfront...that mid was soooooooooo good) it's a shitload easier than starting from scratch.
13
#13
6 Frags +

new new map pugs is always willing to help :)

new new map pugs is always willing to help :)
14
#14
11 Frags +
Mr_Harvardthis is an excellant idea because im sick of playing the same old same old maps all the time, people hate on sunshine but i like playing it because its like the only new map i get to play

sunshine is one of my favorite maps

[quote=Mr_Harvard]this is an excellant idea because im sick of playing the same old same old maps all the time, people hate on sunshine but i like playing it because its like the only new map i get to play[/quote]

sunshine is one of my favorite maps
15
#15
8 Frags +

Man this makes me remember how much fun New Map Weekends were, and also how much effort went into them from Waxpax.

We would pug on each map, then after the pug everyone would be encouraged to give constructive and descriptive feedback. Waxpax would transcribe all this into a neatly formatted forum post in the tf2maps.net thread for each individual map, after each weekend of pugs. What a guy.

Man this makes me remember how much fun New Map Weekends were, and also how much effort went into them from Waxpax.

We would pug on each map, then after the pug everyone would be encouraged to give constructive and descriptive feedback. Waxpax would transcribe all this into a neatly formatted forum post in the tf2maps.net thread for each individual map, after each weekend of pugs. What a guy.
16
#16
0 Frags +

I ran a tried and tested map pool this weekend at TLAN, but in considering ideas for future events, an experimental map pool is something I proposed. Even at GXL, if you guys suggest here or somewhere what kind of experimental maps you want to try even at GXL in PUGs (HL or 6s), I'd be down. PM me here or on Steam if you want to suggest maps.

I ran a tried and tested map pool this weekend at TLAN, but in considering ideas for future events, an experimental map pool is something I proposed. Even at GXL, if you guys suggest here or somewhere what kind of experimental maps you want to try even at GXL in PUGs (HL or 6s), I'd be down. PM me here or on Steam if you want to suggest maps.
17
#17
8 Frags +

2015 WE JUST GOTTA PLAY GULLY/BADLANDS/SNAKE/PROCESS

no other maps exist nowadays and it blows

2015 WE JUST GOTTA PLAY GULLY/BADLANDS/SNAKE/PROCESS

no other maps exist nowadays and it blows
18
#18
-2 Frags +

Let's revamp foundry

Let's revamp foundry
19
#19
2 Frags +

bring back grack!!

bring back grack!!
20
#20
0 Frags +

i heard clive was working on a map

i heard clive was working on a map
21
#21
5 Frags +

as said before, new new map pugs are always looking for new maps to test, a big issue right now is that it takes almost forever to get 12 people to play, it usually takes ~1 hour to fill. And it makes testing super difficult, also, if any mapmaker is looking for testing you can add me http://steamcommunity.com/id/kounterparts/

also, if you could join the group if you want to test join the group here http://steamcommunity.com/groups/newmappugs

theyre held every saturday @ 9

apologies for the shameless plug, it just felt like it was on topic

as said before, new new map pugs are always looking for new maps to test, a big issue right now is that it takes almost forever to get 12 people to play, it usually takes ~1 hour to fill. And it makes testing super difficult, also, if any mapmaker is looking for testing you can add me http://steamcommunity.com/id/kounterparts/

also, if you could join the group if you want to test join the group here http://steamcommunity.com/groups/newmappugs

theyre held every saturday @ 9

apologies for the shameless plug, it just felt like it was on topic
22
#22
7 Frags +

Is there an EU alternative?

Is there an EU alternative?
23
#23
2 Frags +

just edit metalworks and change it to daylight, there you have it, one more map that people will play
#bringbackmetalworks

just edit metalworks and change it to daylight, there you have it, one more map that people will play
#bringbackmetalworks
24
#24
-5 Frags +
wrujust edit metalworks and change it to daylight, there you have it, one more map that people will play
#bringbackmetalworks

metalworks is still in the rotation

[quote=wru]just edit metalworks and change it to daylight, there you have it, one more map that people will play
#bringbackmetalworks[/quote]

metalworks is still in the rotation
25
#25
3 Frags +
pokemonizepicwrujust edit metalworks and change it to daylight, there you have it, one more map that people will play
#bringbackmetalworks

metalworks is still in the rotation

it's not on etf2l and it might be removed from tf2pickup rotation soon, sad to see it gone just like that

[quote=pokemonizepic][quote=wru]just edit metalworks and change it to daylight, there you have it, one more map that people will play
#bringbackmetalworks[/quote]

metalworks is still in the rotation[/quote]

it's not on etf2l and it might be removed from tf2pickup rotation soon, sad to see it gone just like that
26
#26
2 Frags +

Metalworks has a lot of bigger problems than lack of daylight. It's very hard to gain momentum on that map unless you manage to wipe the other team.

Metalworks has a lot of bigger problems than lack of daylight. It's very hard to gain momentum on that map unless you manage to wipe the other team.
27
#27
0 Frags +

someone please make a yukon_pro that map is so close to being good

marmadukeGRYLLSwe truthfully don't need maps made, we should just be fixing old maps. even if it's a massive overhaul (like yukon needs) or smaller changes to 2nd/last (warmfront...that mid was soooooooooo good) it's a shitload easier than starting from scratch.

isnt there a koth_warmfront?

EDIT: http://www.teamfortress.tv/13315/koth-warmfront

someone please make a yukon_pro that map is so close to being good

[quote=marmadukeGRYLLS]we truthfully don't need maps made, we should just be fixing old maps. even if it's a massive overhaul (like yukon needs) or smaller changes to 2nd/last (warmfront...that mid was soooooooooo good) it's a shitload easier than starting from scratch.[/quote]

isnt there a koth_warmfront?

EDIT: http://www.teamfortress.tv/13315/koth-warmfront
28
#28
2 Frags +

We need to get a few prem/invite players with a lot of knowledge about the game to actually design a map from the start and have someone who knows hammer make and detail it for them. That way any map balance stuff should be ironed out before the detailing even happens. So far it's just been people suggesting changes to a map somebody's already made but if top level players actually designed their ideal parts of the map it could be really cool.

We need to get a few prem/invite players with a lot of knowledge about the game to actually design a map from the start and have someone who knows hammer make and detail it for them. That way any map balance stuff should be ironed out before the detailing even happens. So far it's just been people suggesting changes to a map somebody's already made but if top level players actually designed their ideal parts of the map it could be really cool.
29
#29
0 Frags +
ZestyWe need to get a few prem/invite players with a lot of knowledge about the game to actually design a map from the start and have someone who knows hammer make and detail it for them.marmadukeGRYLLSwe should just be fixing old maps. even if it's a massive overhaul (like yukon needs) or smaller changes to 2nd/last (warmfront...that mid was soooooooooo good) it's a shitload easier than starting from scratch.

if there was a good list of changes wanted/needed for specific maps, then any mapper would have something nice and clear to go off. for example (high level) comp players just dumping their thoughts on maps that are currently not in the map pool, but could be in there after some changes to the map.
would just creating a thread for each map be a start? i bet i'm not the only one who's willing to take a look, if there's people helping by saying what exactly needs changing/fixing.

[quote=Zesty]We need to get a few prem/invite players with a lot of knowledge about the game to actually design a map from the start and have someone who knows hammer make and detail it for them.[/quote]

[quote=marmadukeGRYLLS]we should just be fixing old maps. even if it's a massive overhaul (like yukon needs) or smaller changes to 2nd/last (warmfront...that mid was soooooooooo good) it's a shitload easier than starting from scratch.[/quote]

if there was a good list of changes wanted/needed for specific maps, then any mapper would have something nice and clear to go off. for example (high level) comp players just dumping their thoughts on maps that are currently not in the map pool, but could be in there after some changes to the map.
would just creating a thread for each map be a start? i bet i'm not the only one who's willing to take a look, if there's people helping by saying what exactly needs changing/fixing.
30
#30
10 Frags +
ZestyWe need to get a few prem/invite players with a lot of knowledge about the game to actually design a map from the start and have someone who knows hammer make and detail it for them. That way any map balance stuff should be ironed out before the detailing even happens. So far it's just been people suggesting changes to a map somebody's already made but if top level players actually designed their ideal parts of the map it could be really cool.

Well there is no consensus on what makes a good map even on the prem level, in fact a lot of prem players have no idea what makes the maps they are playing good. There are many strong and wildly different opinions about it.

The best approach is just to have a good map maker with a good basic idea that also listens to criticism from all skill levels, but who also doesn't try to implement every suggestion in order to try to please everyone.

[quote=Zesty]We need to get a few prem/invite players with a lot of knowledge about the game to actually design a map from the start and have someone who knows hammer make and detail it for them. That way any map balance stuff should be ironed out before the detailing even happens. So far it's just been people suggesting changes to a map somebody's already made but if top level players actually designed their ideal parts of the map it could be really cool.[/quote]

Well there is no consensus on what makes a good map even on the prem level, in fact a lot of prem players have no idea what makes the maps they are playing good. There are many strong and wildly different opinions about it.

The best approach is just to have a good map maker with a good basic idea that also listens to criticism from all skill levels, but who also doesn't try to implement every suggestion in order to try to please everyone.
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