WackyfireballWhipProjectiles collide with teammates which can be super annoying
Gunboats don't apply damage reduction on self damage while damaging an enemy
- plugins fix both
As far as I'm aware and according to the wiki, gunboats aren't suppose to apply when you hit an enemy, why would this be changed if its a not a bug.
While that may be true, soldier gets super fucked by scout at close range because scattergun does big damage, which is fair. The scout though, can also just hold w and any damage the soldier does to the scout at close range gets basically reflected back at him. Effectively allowing a scout to 1-shot a soldier which is super bullshit. This serves as a nice buff to soldier while not requiring possible actual meta shifts, like the med move speed.
[quote=Wackyfireball][quote=Whip]
Projectiles collide with teammates which can be super annoying
Gunboats don't apply damage reduction on self damage while damaging an enemy
- plugins fix both
[/quote]
As far as I'm aware and according to the wiki, gunboats aren't suppose to apply when you hit an enemy, why would this be changed if its a not a bug.[/quote]
While that may be true, soldier gets super fucked by scout at close range because scattergun does big damage, which is fair. The scout though, can also just hold w and any damage the soldier does to the scout at close range gets basically reflected back at him. Effectively allowing a scout to 1-shot a soldier which is super bullshit. This serves as a nice buff to soldier while not requiring possible actual meta shifts, like the med move speed.
FactsMachineYeah, let's just ban crossbow, make it so scouts can't walk meds out and force medic players to uninstall in the name of making the game more like the glory days when soldier was good :)
shut up
[quote=FactsMachine]Yeah, let's just ban crossbow, make it so scouts can't walk meds out and force medic players to uninstall in the name of making the game more like the glory days when soldier was good :)[/quote]
shut up
WackyfireballHaven't they both been in the game since the beginning?
That's not a particularly good reason against trying out changes.
WackyfireballAs far as I'm aware and according to the wiki, gunboats aren't suppose to apply when you hit an enemy, why would this be changed if its a not a bug.
The wiki explains the behaviour, the implementation rather than the intent of the feature, the latter seemed to be "gunboats only apply for rocket jumps", that is quite different. I implemented the change because I feel that situations such as the one described by Kermit feel incredibly absurd - the behaviour is hard to expect, to predict.
I would prefer to have Soldier's base self-damage resistance always apply (as opposed to only mid-air) rather than this, but I've not had the time to develop the change.
Wackyfireball And doesn't letting projectiles go through allies reduce part of positioning and communication.
I've never understood the point about positioning when it comes to this change, I just cannot envision a situation in which this can be abused and not be reproduced without the plugin. This testing season could show me otherwise. The point about communication makes even less sense, you shoot a rocket, your scout who faces the other way runs into it, you're just never going to be able to prevent that through comms, that seems silly.
[quote=Wackyfireball]Haven't they both been in the game since the beginning?[/quote]
That's not a particularly good reason against trying out changes.
[quote=Wackyfireball]
As far as I'm aware and according to the wiki, gunboats aren't suppose to apply when you hit an enemy, why would this be changed if its a not a bug.[/quote]
The wiki explains the behaviour, the implementation rather than the intent of the feature, the latter seemed to be "gunboats only apply for rocket jumps", that is quite different. I implemented the change because I feel that situations such as the one described by Kermit feel incredibly absurd - the behaviour is hard to expect, to predict.
I would prefer to have Soldier's base self-damage resistance always apply (as opposed to only mid-air) rather than this, but I've not had the time to develop the change.
[quote=Wackyfireball] And doesn't letting projectiles go through allies reduce part of positioning and communication.[/quote]
I've never understood the point about positioning when it comes to this change, I just cannot envision a situation in which this can be abused and not be reproduced without the plugin. This testing season could show me otherwise. The point about communication makes even less sense, you shoot a rocket, your scout who faces the other way runs into it, you're just never going to be able to prevent that through comms, that seems silly.
gonna enjoy to play soldier again
gonna enjoy to play soldier again
OLD META IS BACK YOU ZOOMERS!!!
OLD META IS BACK YOU ZOOMERS!!!
LUKASTANK@collaide please dont ruin every stickytrap on the map like someone did on badlands remake ty
for each patched stickytrap a new traffic cone should be added somewhere on the map.
It's only fair
[quote=LUKASTANK]@collaide please dont ruin every stickytrap on the map like someone did on badlands remake ty[/quote]
for each patched stickytrap a new traffic cone should be added somewhere on the map.
It's only fair
https://i.imgur.com/dFJBW1y.png
Shoot people in the face at point blank and only take 18 self damage, seems kinda ridiculous imho. Even the default rocket jump self damage resist doesn't apply when damaging someone else, so why should the gunboats do that? I get that the point is to nerf scouts but the med speed and winger jump nerfs already do that, and the gunbats change is going to make soldier ridiculous. At that point, if that's considered "balanced" why not make it so demo gets the explosive jump resistance applied when piping people at close range?
Shoot people in the face at point blank and only take 18 self damage, seems kinda ridiculous imho. Even the default rocket jump self damage resist doesn't apply when damaging someone else, so why should the gunboats do that? I get that the point is to nerf scouts but the med speed and winger jump nerfs already do that, and the gunbats change is going to make soldier ridiculous. At that point, if that's considered "balanced" why not make it so demo gets the explosive jump resistance applied when piping people at close range?
SylentShoot people in the face at point blank and only take 18 self damage
That's if you're in the air, if not, that's closer to 31 damage.
SylentEven the default rocket jump self damage resist doesn't apply when damaging someone else
That's not a condition which affects Soldier's base self-damage resistance, the only factor is whether you're in the air or not.
[quote=Sylent]Shoot people in the face at point blank and only take 18 self damage[/quote]
That's if you're in the air, if not, that's closer to 31 damage.
[quote=Sylent]Even the default rocket jump self damage resist doesn't apply when damaging someone else[/quote]
That's not a condition which affects Soldier's base self-damage resistance, the only factor is whether you're in the air or not.
Sylent
the point of the gunboats change isnt to nerf scout its to not take 60 damage for no reason
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWpbKBQ8MlM&ab_channel=BigBoon
imagine rocket jumping, expecting to take 20 damage, and then someone happens to be at the very edge of your explosion radius and then you take 60 damage instead. its fucking stupid.
edit:
in the video i provided, Um isnt jumping, he's just standing on the ground and placing the rocket under him which is why hes taking more like 85 damage for each rocket. this is pretty unrealistic which is why i estimate about 60 damage above
[quote=Sylent][/quote]
the point of the gunboats change isnt to nerf scout its to not take 60 damage for no reason
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWpbKBQ8MlM&ab_channel=BigBoon
imagine rocket jumping, expecting to take 20 damage, and then someone happens to be at the very edge of your explosion radius and then you take 60 damage instead. its fucking stupid.
edit:
in the video i provided, Um isnt jumping, he's just standing on the ground and placing the rocket under him which is why hes taking more like 85 damage for each rocket. this is pretty unrealistic which is why i estimate about 60 damage above
twiikuuSylentShoot people in the face at point blank and only take 18 self damage
That's if you're in the air, if not, that's closer to 31 damage.
Wouldnt it still be ~18 if you jump and shoot?
twiikuuSylentEven the default rocket jump self damage resist doesn't apply when damaging someone else
That's not a condition which affects Soldier's base self-damage resistance, the only factor is whether you're in the air or not.
"To assist with rocket jumps, the Soldier has a 40% damage resistance against any rocket he fires that hurts him while he is in the air. This resistance will take effect even if an enemy was hit with the same rocket used to rocket jump, unlike the Gunboats"
Nvm, you're right
Original point still stands though, it's honestly a silly change
[quote=twiikuu][quote=Sylent]Shoot people in the face at point blank and only take 18 self damage[/quote]
That's if you're in the air, if not, that's closer to 31 damage.[/quote]
Wouldnt it still be ~18 if you jump and shoot?
[quote=twiikuu][quote=Sylent]Even the default rocket jump self damage resist doesn't apply when damaging someone else[/quote]
That's not a condition which affects Soldier's base self-damage resistance, the only factor is whether you're in the air or not.[/quote]
"To assist with rocket jumps, the Soldier has a 40% damage resistance against any rocket he fires that hurts him while he is in the air. This resistance will take effect even if an enemy was hit with the same rocket used to rocket jump, unlike the Gunboats"
Nvm, you're right
Original point still stands though, it's honestly a silly change
how will scouts recover from not having 40% heals
how will scouts recover from not having 40% heals
People freaking out because they think soldier just stopped being the weakest 6s class
Fear not
Soldiers will still get their shit pushed in by scouts
It is going to be okay
People freaking out because they think soldier just stopped being the weakest 6s class
Fear not
Soldiers will still get their shit pushed in by scouts
It is going to be okay
TobPeople freaking out because they think soldier just stopped being the weakest 6s class
Fear not
Soldiers will still get their shit pushed in by scouts
It is going to be okay
DONT BELIEVE SCOUT PROPAGANDA, RISE UP PROJECTILE PLAYERS, TIME FOR THE REVOLUTION
[quote=Tob]People freaking out because they think soldier just stopped being the weakest 6s class
Fear not
Soldiers will still get their shit pushed in by scouts
It is going to be okay[/quote]
DONT BELIEVE SCOUT PROPAGANDA, RISE UP PROJECTILE PLAYERS, TIME FOR THE REVOLUTION
tbh im glad theyre just throwing it in a season, i dont think any relevant feedback has ever come from mix teams playing like 3 maps in preseason cups and not particularly trying. if it turns out to be worse at least we will know and can go straight back next season :)
tbh im glad theyre just throwing it in a season, i dont think any relevant feedback has ever come from mix teams playing like 3 maps in preseason cups and not particularly trying. if it turns out to be worse at least we will know and can go straight back next season :)
I really like the idea of using a season as a testing ground of some of these things. It would be good to be able to test some of these in isolation though as I think it might be hard to separate the effects of each change. Don't just judge this on whether all of these plugins together make the game better or worse.
I really like the idea of using a season as a testing ground of some of these things. It would be good to be able to test some of these in isolation though as I think it might be hard to separate the effects of each change. Don't just judge this on whether all of these plugins together make the game better or worse.
its good to use the fall time to have tests may it be no season and cups or a "test" season.
I would like to see the iron bomber hitbox fix being tested at some point before the end of the year too
remember people freaked out before gunboats were introduced too and it turned out fine.
props to plugin devs and admins for this one
its good to use the fall time to have tests may it be no season and cups or a "test" season.
I would like to see the iron bomber hitbox fix being tested at some point before the end of the year too
remember people freaked out before gunboats were introduced too and it turned out fine.
props to plugin devs and admins for this one
hello. If you are going to make soldier take less self damage please make demo take less pipe self damage. Otherwise you have increased the power of soldier in the soldier v demo match up.
hello. If you are going to make soldier take less self damage please make demo take less pipe self damage. Otherwise you have increased the power of soldier in the soldier v demo match up.
Hedgehello. If you are going to make soldier take less self damage please make demo take less pipe self damage. Otherwise you have increased the power of soldier in the soldier v demo match up.
demo is designed to be weak in close quarters. soldier already won soldier v demo when he got close up unless the demo used the weapon where the pipes are the size of the skybox itself.
[quote=Hedge]hello. If you are going to make soldier take less self damage please make demo take less pipe self damage. Otherwise you have increased the power of soldier in the soldier v demo match up.[/quote]
demo is designed to be weak in close quarters. soldier already won soldier v demo when he got close up unless the demo used the weapon where the pipes are the size of the skybox itself.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/voYXyDO.jpg[/img]
Will be intresting to see how the meta shifts from these changes. Soldiers obviously gaining some power but more importantely medic positioning becoming even more important
Will be intresting to see how the meta shifts from these changes. Soldiers obviously gaining some power but more importantely medic positioning becoming even more important
Eemeshttps://etf2l.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/2020-09-13-20_23_18-Window.png
What's the point of having a vote if you're not going to abide by its outcome? Can someone from ETF2L even explain the logic behind the decision to implement the scout speed change based on this poll, which shows a majority of votes against the plugin?
youve got to remember that theres people like ace voting
[quote=Eemes]https://etf2l.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/2020-09-13-20_23_18-Window.png
What's the point of having a vote if you're not going to abide by its outcome? Can someone from ETF2L even explain the logic behind the decision to implement the scout speed change based on this poll, which shows a majority of votes [i]against[/i] the plugin?[/quote]
youve got to remember that theres people like ace voting
sdfgjdfgkhklfgdjfkMedic attach speed stuff
I think your argument centering around medic attach speed making the game more aggressive doesn't quite take into account a few things. The way attach speed currently works incentivizes something I call "half committing" where meds and scouts tend to play a lot safer in fights than they would pre attach speed which often ends up hurting coordinated aggression (this is particularly noticable on mids like process). This is because they know that with this positioning they have a guarantee of getting out and preserving uber if the fight goes poorly. I think this is more what fucks soldier in the current meta than "medics heal scouts more", it's just that it provides more of an incentive for their team to bait them and changes their class role to be more throwaway.
If you watch older TF2, you'll notice meds will bail on mid far earlier than they would now if they smell things going badly. You need to do this to have a guarantee of getting out when you don't have attach speed. You might think that this would make the game far more passive, but the thing is that having to bail this early means that you're almost certainly baiting your team for a loss, so it has much larger consequences. Also, you'd see meds and scouts commit a lot more in fights because there's no guarantee they're getting out otherwise, so it's optimal to get your team as healthy as possible. Basically, if you can't guarantee your medic living it's less optimal to play around doing so.
sdfgjdfgkhklfgdjfkslowing down the meta that we’ve been happy playing for 5 years and limiting our options for plays seems so pointless
I'd also just like to point out that I've not been happy playing the meta for almost exactly 5 years and that the 2015 meta was probably when TF2 felt the most fun both to watch and play. It's not just playing soldier either, I think scout and medic became far less fun after the change compared to soldier which only became moderately less fun. I will say that we're definitely in a better place than we were a couple of years after the change, but I still think what we're playing currently needs shaking up badly.
[quote=sdfgjdfgkhklfgdjfk]
Medic attach speed stuff
[/quote]
I think your argument centering around medic attach speed making the game more aggressive doesn't quite take into account a few things. The way attach speed currently works incentivizes something I call "half committing" where meds and scouts tend to play a lot safer in fights than they would pre attach speed which often ends up hurting coordinated aggression (this is particularly noticable on mids like process). This is because they know that with this positioning they have a guarantee of getting out and preserving uber if the fight goes poorly. I think this is more what fucks soldier in the current meta than "medics heal scouts more", it's just that it provides more of an incentive for their team to bait them and changes their class role to be more throwaway.
If you watch older TF2, you'll notice meds will bail on mid far earlier than they would now if they smell things going badly. You need to do this to have a guarantee of getting out when you don't have attach speed. You might think that this would make the game far more passive, but the thing is that having to bail this early means that you're almost certainly baiting your team for a loss, so it has much larger consequences. Also, you'd see meds and scouts commit a lot more in fights because there's no guarantee they're getting out otherwise, so it's optimal to get your team as healthy as possible. Basically, if you can't guarantee your medic living it's less optimal to play around doing so.
[quote=sdfgjdfgkhklfgdjfk]slowing down the meta that we’ve been happy playing for 5 years and limiting our options for plays seems so pointless
[/quote]
I'd also just like to point out that I've not been happy playing the meta for almost exactly 5 years and that the 2015 meta was probably when TF2 felt the most fun both to watch and play. It's not just playing soldier either, I think scout and medic became far less fun after the change compared to soldier which only became moderately less fun. I will say that we're definitely in a better place than we were a couple of years after the change, but I still think what we're playing currently needs shaking up badly.
I'm sure you'll be able to get that consent bar above 50% when everyone that thinks the change is dogshit has upped and left the scene because they haven't been listened to.
I'm sure you'll be able to get that consent bar above 50% when everyone that thinks the change is dogshit has upped and left the scene because they haven't been listened to.
EemesI'm sure you'll be able to get that consent bar above 50% when everyone that thinks the change is dogshit has upped and left the scene because they haven't been listened to.
https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/001/007/WAT.jpg
[quote=Eemes]I'm sure you'll be able to get that consent bar above 50% when everyone that thinks the change is dogshit has upped and left the scene because they haven't been listened to.[/quote]
[img]https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/001/007/WAT.jpg[/img]
sdfgjdfgkhklfgdjfki really dont understand the pipe spin change, i dont really see what it fixes or who it was meant to appease. like who was asking for this?
I think it's nice!
It means demomen can more accurately line up roller spam kinda like cs:go smoke. its probably not gonna be the most useful thing ever but it adds a layer of skill [correct me if im wrong]
[quote=sdfgjdfgkhklfgdjfk]i really dont understand the pipe spin change, i dont really see what it fixes or who it was meant to appease. like who was asking for this?[/quote]
I think it's nice!
It means demomen can more accurately line up roller spam kinda like cs:go smoke. its probably not gonna be the most useful thing ever but it adds a layer of skill [i][correct me if im wrong][/i]
For me it just dumps down medic positioning to: Stay forback no matter what
I really liked to do all kind of trying to overextend with scout speed just to bait someone into chasing me, which now will not be possible.
Positionning will not be more Important and harder, it will just become more boring repetitive and so, less fun.
Just pointing out that in ETF2L, medics in prem shifts all season( for s36 we had 12 differents medics playing the season), meanwhile on the other classes, this is not the case.
For me it just dumps down medic positioning to: Stay forback no matter what
I really liked to do all kind of trying to overextend with scout speed just to bait someone into chasing me, which now will not be possible.
Positionning will not be more Important and harder, it will just become more boring repetitive and so, less fun.
Just pointing out that in ETF2L, medics in prem shifts all season( for s36 we had 12 differents medics playing the season), meanwhile on the other classes, this is not the case.
EemesI'm sure you'll be able to get that consent bar above 50% when everyone that thinks the change is dogshit has upped and left the scene because they haven't been listened to.
"I don't like that proposal, better not vote!"
???
[quote=Eemes]I'm sure you'll be able to get that consent bar above 50% when everyone that thinks the change is dogshit has upped and left the scene because they haven't been listened to.[/quote]
"I don't like that proposal, better not vote!"
???