incredible lack of self-awareness.

this is stupid cause it means anything that doesnt have the plugin will be dogarse practise and fuck with ur muscle memory, even tho it would be sick to have centered stickies.

am replying late and also to the not most relevant part of the plugins but it is a purely visual change, pipes still have variance in their accuracy from when they're shot, go try it out on a server if you want. Both where they land and the way rollers roll are still random and the amount is probably not reduced at all by this. I just think it looks freaky, makes stock pipes look like LnL.

Now to comment on relevant stuff: people whinging about democratic process when it comes to implementation of a plugin are literally just as retarded as the people who wanted ROBUST JUDICIAL SYSTEM TRANSPARENCY on AC bans lmfaoooo, and I say this as someone who on first impression does not like the plugin. I'm firmly on the side of the people who say we should put it in for a season and see what happens (even tho I think we'll probably get rid of the med speed plugin, between it having less depth and alienating both new and established players).

yo the desc links to a sick daft punk song tho...

https://i.redd.it/1hdmbj394jm51.png

Now that people have both A) understood the point of this post and the way I'm viewing the situation and B) make some real arguments as to why they think it shouldn't be banned anyway, I think it's fair to say that it comes down to a value judgment and personal game philosophy. I personally don't think Demo is as weak as some others do, and this is where objectively neither side can disprove the other. Even when making the thread I personally viewed the situation as marginal - it would be somewhat evenly split but leaning 1 way ot another, which I think the strawpoll proves. I don't really think there's anything left to discuss and all meaningful possibilities have been explored, but most people do agree that 1 of 2 things needs to happen - Ib brought down to other launchers (people like me who think Demo is pretty strong without truck sized projectile) or people who think other launchers should be elevated to IB levels (those who think Demo needs something like the IB to keep Demo relevant). On top of this, visual adjustments need to be made to stop the weapon from feeling so lame to play against, if I'm the one who's ashamed by some of these pipes hitting I can't imagine what it must be like to be on the opposite end.

/thread

Thanks for making this post, was about to write a lot of angry things :-) made this image just to visualise to people how i'm viewing unlocks. not saying it's objectively correct but I've got 12k hours and have put a lot of thought into it!!! Should also stress the positioning of these unlocks is not down to scientific accuracy before i get people going "umm ackshually gunboats should be moved to da left and to da right", this is just a visual representation.

https://i.imgur.com/ejTy4NM.png

i used to think u had functioning brain but perhaps now not so much :-)

Untrue, no Demos are aiming with the fucky large projectile in mind, they're just benefiting from it at random more than anything. Most demos who are good right now would still be just as good, they just wouldn't be getting undeserved kills on medics and scouts mostly.

??? I haven't equipped stock for like 2 years or some shit now lmfao]

edit: I MADE THIS FUCKING GROUP https://steamcommunity.com/groups/stockpipesblow

Just cause 1 thing is stupid doesn't mean the other thing isn't also, if it were up to me I'd ban the Winger too brother

Until it gets banned I'm gonna keep using it lol not giving up the advantage just because I think it should be removed, but it's objectively stupid in its current state.

I also think people think too simplistically about unlocks, especially the straight upgrade argument. In reality unlocks can either be strong or weak and healthy for the game or unhealthy for the game. The way in which Iron Bomber is strong is stupid in comparison to something like Gunboats or Xbow, don't try to do the literal brainlet tier argument of "we should ban everything that is better than stock:DDD" lol.

https://www.teamfortress.tv/post/1008449/iron-bomber-regular-pipes-have-the-same-physics

This thread is what I'm referring to when I say it's an objective upgrade. The more consistent arc stuff was and sitll remains as an irrelevant point tbh, first of all I'm not even sure if it does anything in real game situations and 2nd of all it wouldn't balance out the projectile being almost 2x bigger than stock pipes. People take into account the horizontal axis immediately when thinking about this (easier to hit people moving side to side), but not many people think about how why this was the reason that Iron Bomber feels like it hits you before it hits you (if that makes any sense). Nothing to do with smaller model or it being darker, so harder to see and react to.

Probably gonna be a boring post to most people since I've kinda been going on about it since the new info came to light and even before that there were others harping on it for ages, but now that there's definitive proof that it's just easier to use than stock pipes this unlock should probably be banned. Kinda want there to be some formal discussion on it since most of it has been on other threads related to whitelists or the original thread where it was showcased how broken this shit really is.

Obviously (or at least obviously to me) it should be unbanned if valve fix it or a plugin is made that fixes it (I'm not at all knowledgeable on exactly how possible this is but my first thoughts would be to say it's unlikely if not impossible). I still think that if it worked how everyone thought it did it would actually be healthier for the game to have consistent rollers than wacky chaos rollers (utility from better roller jumps + objectively speaking mechanics that behave in a more consistent manner provide for a more competitive environment, even if the effect is stronger as a result).

I also wanna refute a point that some people were making where they acknowledge that it's broken and stupid but Demo probably needs it for balance reasons:

I think removing the Iron Bomber at this point would be a slight nerf to all Demomen but it's not something that should be missed. Ever since having it pointed out I notice the amount of pipes I hit that are just about grazing someone's shoulder or hair and I'm like "This is a cool unlock". Obviously I/most demos hit pipes that would also be hits with stock a majority of the time, that's what good aim and muscle memory leads to, but what would have been an unfortunate close miss is now a hit that nets me a frag/damage/round/etc. You don't aim for the edges of hitboxes just because you can. End of the day, Demo is still the strongest class in the game, and was somewhat underrated as a DM class for the longest time. This can be proven by pretty much any Div1+ Demoman tbh but even more so by the top Demos of any region who DM their way out of bad situations. (I don't think many active top-level players still buy into the whole "Demo is the weakest direct combat class" line, and even those who do realise it's not as severe as in 2010 when no one knew how to hold a mouse and had no limbs).

TLDR: Demo with stock pipes is strong/balanced enough, he doesn't need something that randomly bails him out a few times a game. Also it's probably unfun as fuck to play against specifically as Scout, and yeah "haha scout class in 2020 is OP" but there's better ways to balance the dynamics between Scout and Projectile classes beyond "Demoman sometimes kills scout for free ontop of being able to outplay them sometimes anyways" (I rarely notice hitting Soldiers cause of the broken collision fuckery)

Obligatory tf.tv discussion thread strawpoll: https://www.strawpoll.me/20917602