hooky it just bothers me that CEVO doesn't guarantee us a LAN, and that's why i'm saying it's not worth the risk. TF2 doesn't die right away, but it does die the slow painful death of top teams leaving the game sooner than if there was a LAN to keep them there.

I've been talking to Europeans a lot in the past day or so and they all say how lucky we are to have ESEA and to have a LAN to look forward to. It draws a big crowd on streams, it is an incentive for players at all levels to improve and make it to that top 4, and it's fun for the top players and keeps them from dropping out of the game. To quote Skyride: "if the top tier stop caring, its like a loose thread that quickly ripples down."

However there is one good thing I see in CEVO.

I'm not sure what CEVO's business model will be (it seems like they are still hashing that out for TF2), but it just occurred to me that if people from ESEA do swap to CEVO then CEVO could potentially be larger than ESEA could ever be. UGC 6v6 players would likely join CEVO as they both have no league fee and all of the best competition would be housed there.

UGC would remain as a primarily highlander league and CEVO would have an increased number of 6s teams. Not sure what the CEVO guys are thinking but having at least a F2P open division would be a good way to grow the number of teams that they currently have. The main reason why people aren't swapping from UGC to CEVO now is because there is not much reason to do so at this moment.

This would join two groups of players (UGC and CEVO) even if some teams stayed with ESEA. And if people didn't stay with ESEA then I guess it would join three groups of players. Interesting.

it's also an incentive for lower level players as well because it's an incentive for the top FOUR teams rather than the top 1-2. so if you have really dominant teams (which is common in TF2 in general) taking that 1-2 spot, you still want to make invite because making LAN is pretty cool.

and the reason you should believe me on this is because i have 3 seasons of open played and 4 of IM and i still just want to make LAN. that'd be pretty cool ye.

yeah it 's true ETF2L was dangerously close to dying if it wasn't for losing i46 invigorating their community and inspiring their teams to keep on playing. but it seems now that they're on the downhill trend again. Kaidus was saying his team is in the same funk that ma3la said that his team is having on LiT. forgive me if i misquote but on his stream he was saying that his team is good enough to beat the other teams but not good enough to beat epsilon, and the amount of time his needed to put into the game to beat epsilon was not worth the reward for doing so. apparently a lot of the epsilon players are getting bored too.

it's not an argument for ESEA but it could be the future of NATF2 regardless of the league that we choose.

then again, we've had dominant dynasties in the past and it hasn't been a problem. it has historically been just a cycle of good teams moving up and then eventually dying repeatedly.

They share your revenue/statistics with the team leader (me). Mainly used by MGOs.
You don't need to share that information with me but thanks for checking.

"Kill the game" is what happens when you split the community and make it significantly smaller. So if half of the people commit to CEVO and half commit to ESEA, then both parties are screwing each other over. Competition dwindles for both leagues, and it gets boring to play. Game dies.

Like I said staying together is the best option.

Ok. The only reason I ask is because we're a website focused on competitive TF2 and not pub TF2.

All set!

Make sure to do the following:

1. Go to Twitch.TV
2. Click your NAME at the top
3. Navigate to SETTINGS
4. Click the TEAMS tab and accept your invitation

http://puu.sh/2ypcz

Happy streaming!

Like I said i'm in favor of not killing TF2 so whichever option keeps it alive is fine with me but I'm doubtful that everyone would migrate over.

TL;DR nobody wants to do the work they just want someone else to do it and ESEA has always been around for us. Even the people talking about CEVO aren't doing the work they want someone else to do it. ESEA hasn't died in 15 seasons unlike CEVO and we all know that the UGC admins are a joke. Stick with ESEA, don't kill this game.

This rift that we're seeing in TF2 has happened before back when people wanted CB to make the
"My Gaming Edge League" and again when people wanted Enigma to make the "Team Fortress TV" league. A certain portion of people who play TF2 just don't like ESEA and I don't blame them but they're missing out on the fact that it takes a lot of work to put together a league. To put together a LAN. To make a website about teaching people how to play TF2. To make a new Gotfrag. There's only a few people in this community who actually do the work. The rest of the people just talk about doing work.

The reason MGE league and TFTV league never happened is because both CB and Enigma didn't want to do the work. It's not worth the money, and both CB and Enigma are people who just want to play video games like everyone else.

People miss the fact that the people at the top of this game are just like you. They don't care much about the incentives and they just want to play video games like everyone else. They just stuck around long enough and the top level players eventually end up quitting because there is nobody else to play against (see Reptile, CoL, x6, Epsilon, Team Immmunity). The difference with NA TF2 and those communities is that we have choices in the league that we play in and they don't.

But we all know that it's in our BEST interest to all play in the same league. To all compete in the same league. A league that won't die. A league with a guaranteed commitment to TF2. And that's why we should stay with ESEA. To keep the community together, despite the problems with certain league management. ETF2L league management hasn't always been perfect either, but sticking together is better in the long run for our game.

Well Benk the people that want to switch to CEVO will only do so if other people go with them so no, if we stay with ESEA we won't take that short term hit. Sure some people "say" that they will switch, but in the end those people are the same people who just want to play video games. Switching to CEVO by yourself would be boring as you'd have nobody to play against, so you'd end up staying with ESEA anyways.

@#48 We could make an entire thread about this but the "top 10%" of skilled players in this game that people are talking about don't want the skill level of this game to take a hit, and switching to CEVO will cause top level TF2 to take a hit. The "bottom 90%" of players don't care about that, so they don't mind switching because in their mind, in the long term, the skill level will rebound.

The reason that the top players don't want the skill level to take a hit is because it's hard enough to find other teams to play/scrim against and taking that skill hit will reduce competition for them even further. The LAN/money itself isn't really an incentive for the players who just want to compete but it IS an incentive for some of the players that are currently playing at that top level.

In other words one portion of Invite just wants to play video games against good people and another segment just wants to go to a LAN or have some other reason to play.

The thing that we all need to keep in mind is that the top players in this game used to not be the top players in this game. It used to be complexity and Check 6 and all of those guys who were at the top but eventually quit the game. Those teams were just as dominant as iT or Classic Mixup or Epsilon or Team Immunity. The skill level will always rebound and there will always be players at the top, no matter what ma3la says about people not wanting to watch WLA vs Monet.

Skill level of the top doesn't matter to me though. I just don't want to risk TF2 dying because I love this game too much and CEVO has died in the past. I realize they're doing well with the other games that they support right now, but it's just not a risk that I think is worth taking.

Well look we're choosing between potential large TF2 growth (CEVO) and the continued, slower growth of ESEA. CEVO isn't guaranteed to be around, and ESEA is. I am simply saying that I wouldn't want to risk the TF2 community dying on this risky chance of large upside on CEVO.

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The reason I say potential upside is because CEVO is basically willing to work with the TF2 community for less money. The downside is they have a lot of ground to catch up on, the TF2 community will take a big hit for switching (skill drops, CEVO is farther behind than ESEA in terms of their offering). However, you're betting on the long run with CEVO.

That's why it looks like the top players in this game aren't willing to bet on the long run and are willing to bet on the short run with ESEA. Players not at the top of the game are more willing to bet on the long term because the short term offers them less.

Tagging along with what Squid said -- I think that switching to CEVO would be a move made purely on principle. Sure ESEA abused our trust but the actual harm that they caused was minimal at best. All of this talk about malware and bitcoin mining is all valid, but it ultimately won't harm you and is simply a necessary precaution to take when having an anti-cheat for your league. If you really don't like ESEA's anti-cheat policies and are using that for your reason to switch to CEVO, then it's purely a move made on principle and not because you're fearful of any harm that ESEA will inflict to you.

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The best move for the future of our game is to stay the course and keep playing ESEA. CEVO has already failed in the past, and if we leave ESEA for CEVO it could result in a mistake that we can't undo.

As far as LANs go, a lot of the people speaking up don't have a desire to make LAN. But I think many of you are missing out on the opinions of the people who actually DO want to compete and are looking for an incentive to do so. Sure LAN isn't the greatest of incentives (especially considering how much you have to fork out of your own pocket to get there) but it's better than a cash prize in a game where nobody cares about the money. There is no guarantee that CEVO can make a LAN happen, and the only reason ESEA is able to host a LAN for TF2 is by leveraging the assets of the CSGO community.

If we give up a LAN for TF2, our biggest TF2 league then revolves around playing in a league to have fun and NOT around having fun + competing to see who is the best. A significant portion of the community will leave the game without that incentive, and we will lose what many of us have worked so hard to create.

Like it or not the community has been growing every season that we've been with ESEA.
Leaving that behind could be a big mistake.

Sure post here: http://teamfortress.tv/forum/thread/11872-want-your-forum-name-changed-start-here/1