but that game is garbage and not at all what I'm proposing with a slightly-more-strategic version of MGE

sick ad hom, dude

also, I've reset my stats like twice. but whatever.

what does it matter if you still win?

also, you didn't respond to this:

I've played this game a lot, too. I don't have the crazy hour count as some of you do, but I do have enough passion in the scene and the game to try and host a tourney that tries to make MGE watchable and palatable to the wider TF2 audience, not just us.

Honestly, I still fail to see the harm in refusing to play a tourney on the off chance you may be forced to play Pyro for a single round, after which you can thrash them anyways if you're actually the better player. Add that plus a prize pool, and depending on how many people sign up, you'lll deal with a gimmick or two in exchange for a cash prize. Is that really the worst idea? Is TFTV really this against stepping out of their comfort zone?

First of all,

So Heavy v Heavy wouldn't happen, and neither would any sentry-bullshit with Engineers.

Engie minus sentries is slow Scout, granted, so I could see the merit behind removing that as well. Medic's sryinge gun actually has quite high DPS potential in the hands of people who know how to use it, though I don't see many people forcing a Medic ditto unless they have mind-blowing skills with the wrong Medic primary.

That just leaves Pyro and Spy. Pyro's skillset involves doing airblast-combos and reflecting, which can lead to either a slightly-silly ditto or, in the right hands, a sharp response to Soldiers and Demomen as a counterpick.

I feel like it'd be smart to ban the Spy watches in general, but Spy revolver duels aren't bad, especially when choosing between using Ambassador or Revolver for the engagement. Interesting things happen with knives, too.

Obviously a Scout duel is faster, but the Revolvers require a bit more precision to be useful, and many Spy duels are done in a matter of seconds, since neither can double-jump shit around the engagement or get chip damage. Either you were accurate enough to hit the shot, or you get nothing.

Well, for the sake of arguing, say I agree with you about restricting all non-6s classes. What the short rounds and map/class counter-picking? Is the entire format a problem, or just allowing room for class selection gimmicks?

I would appreciate an actual argument with my points.

posting a reaction gif doesn't contribute to the discussion or actually counter anything I've said.

like, if my idea is shit, by all means, argue. make me understand your point of view, show me where past experimentation like this has failed, explain to me why stock MGE is a superior solution for spectating and competing than this is. make your goddamn case.

That isn't what I'm proposing. Class picks would be left up to the players. Hell, the only forced change between rounds would be maps- class selection, or lack therof, would be up to the winner of the coinflip (in the first round) or loser of the first round (in the second round).

What I'm doing is leaving open the opportunity for a disadvantaged player to force a ditto that would allow them a fighting chance, not pushing Prolander or some shit, which I think is a disaster. If they think Pyro can give them that advantage, I say let them do it- if they don't, I don't care.

See, this is why people don't like us. There's plenty of skilled Pyro mains outside of the niche that 6v6 forces them into. There's so much more that goes into being skilled at TF2 than using less than half of its classes.

These scenarios do sound silly, I'll give you that much, but for what reason should the opportunity for them be taken away? These 1v1s may be slower or flow differently, but they're still 1v1s. Also, no Pyro would approach a 1v1 without using airblast/flame particle damage to their advantage at some point in the proceedings- for instance, to juggle the enemy into shotgun/flare combos.

I don't think a smart person would do something like that with money on the line. If they do, it's their right, but the whole point of the system is to give people a fighting chance, stop spectators from watching the exact same 1v1 on the exact same map for 20 minutes, and to keep things fast-paced and interesting while still requiring some strategy around counter-picking classes and maps depending on the skill of the other player.

Understand, the idea of this tournament isn't just to appeal to TFTV, the seasoned 6s players. It needs to appeal to the TF2 audience at large, and spectating first-to-20, Scout/Soldier-only MGE accomplishes neither my goal to appeal to that audience or my goal to show people just how much of a spectacle TF2's 1-on-1s are capable of being.

Lax class bans and the class-picking system mean people who main non-generalist classes can still have their chance against people who only play one or two of the generalist classes.

Shorter rounds and forced arena changes between rounds means that nobody's going to be stuck watching a foregone conclusion MGE, or one that drags on for too long without a change of scenery or strategy.

With this system, yes, there's room for silly gimmicks, but TF2 itself is a game that encourages those gimmicks. Counterplay is the name of the game.

Round 1's a Scout ditto that you can't win because that's not your best class? Great, force a Demoman ditto for Round 2 or go ahead and make classes free-choice if you're confident in that. It gives a chance to even the odds, a chance to make a comeback. Ultimately, the better, more-rounded player will still win, but isn't it way more interesting if the game's outcome isn't transparent from the moment one of the players crosses the threshold of ten kills?

Raw, stock MGE, which is what most of you want to stick to, is not fun to watch. It never will be. To be frank, it's dull and repetitive. The only value MGE has at the moment is to practice raw aim to improve your individual skill as a player, but as far as entertainment value goes, or developing strategy or game sense, it falls dreadfully short.

The fact is, having shorter rounds maintains the fast pace people expect from an eSport. Having counter-picking classes and maps adds in the complexity and strategy that people expect from an eSport, and which is currently absent from the vast majority of the MGE scene.

Open your mind a little. Can you really not see the potential of an MGE tournament that requires more skill and strategy than just raw aim? The better player will still win in the end. In fact, chances are the winners will ultimately be Scout/Soldier mains, who have both raw DM potential and know how to strategize around counterplay and counterpicking.

I'm not proposing something that rips out the soul of MGE, or spits in the face of 6s. I'm proposing something that makes MGE worth watching, that adds variety to the playing and viewing experience, and encourages more well-rounded players beyond runny-shootman and rocketdude. Is that really not something you'd be willing to play for a chance at some extra money?

Yes, it's CSGO and Dota 2's voice codec.

Once the TF Team is sure it works properly in community servers, Casual and Competitive will have sweet-sounding, low-latency voicechat at last. : D

For a single round. If you're truly better at the game, you'll either:
A, overcome the challenge and beat the Pyro main at their own game
B, demolish them in Tiebreaker, since there's no class picking to speak of and you can counter whatever gimmick they try to pull off.

I don't see how my proposed system prevents the better player from winning. It only hurts you if you have a limited knowledge of counterplay in this game which, yes, is a huge part of what dictates "skill". It's not just raw aim.

Being forced to adapt is much more challenging than a straightforward Ammomod MGE testing raw aim and nothing else. It's also much more interesting to watch than that, because there's room for upsets and exciting things to happen. Would you watch a cast of pure stock MGE? I know I wouldn't. We've both already seen all that has to offer.

There's more skill involved in TF2 than just aim. Positioning, knowing the map, counterpicking, etc, are all key parts of the game. MGE as a practice mode for raw aim is fine, but for it to be worth spectating changes to stock MGE need to be made that enable other forms of skill to be presented.

Again, skill in TF2 isn't limited solely to Scout and Soldier. That's extremely narrow-minded, and if we aren't willing to experiment I don't see the scene growing in any significant way.

I want to showcase the variety and excitement that exists in 1v1s in TF2. The stock MGE ruleset leaves a lot of that out, so shortening rounds, switching maps and adding a class/map-pick system enables the other forms of skill in TF2 to shine.

MGE is nothing like the rest of this game, period. Thrashing in MGE won't mean you'll thrash in the main game, because there's classes, there's strategy, there's positioning that can counter you. Adding even just a little bit of that significantly spices up the standard MGE formula, at least in my opinion, and that's why I'm pushing this tourney so hard.

I appreciate the sentiment. Thanks for being constructive, if nothing else.

@SpaceCadet and GentlemanJon
for the sake of simplicity I'd just like to stick with a double-elimination bracket. standard is standard for a reason, in that case.

can you give me some examples?

The only class-picking options are picking a ditto (ie, both players play the same class for the duration of the round: Soldier) or allowing free-choice (players can switch at any time over the duration of the round). The one who chooses class isn't going to do something like assign Shotgun Engie to their enemy and Scout to themselves, it doesn't work like that.

In the case of a ditto being selected, the winner will obviously be the one who's better at the class, and (likely but not guaranteed) the one who selected the ditto. The loser will be allowed to choose a ditto of their own in the next round to counter, and them the last round will be a tiebreaker where both players will have to adapt as necessary to whatever the other chooses to play, since it's free-choice.

That wouldn't be very entertaining to watch. I could get the same thing out of spectating an MGE server.

The whole point of the class and map-picking system is to encourage flexibility and adaption. I don't want to see a first-to-20 Scout 1v1 on the same map every game.

Round 1 gives the advantage of class-picking to the winner of the coinflip, and the advantage of map-picking to the loser of the coinflip.

Round 2 gives the advantage of class-picking to the loser of the previous (meaning they can opt for a ditto they believe would give them a better chance or enable free-choice to counter anything the other throws out) and the advantage of map-picking to the winner of the previous (so if the other person chooses, say, Pyro, he can make sure the engagement is an open space where the other guy can't cheese him as hard).

That is what this thread is for. What maps in MGE do you feel are problematic for a tournament setting? Obviously Ammomod and BBall shouldn't be allowed, but what others come to mind? .

That's the point. I want it to be quick. Following rounds give enough opportunity for a comeback, but imo you can usually see where an MGE is going by the halfway point. Forcing a map and possibly a class change each round keeps things interesting to watch, without it falling into the dull, repetitive gameplay loop that MGE usually becomes after a few rounds.

MGE is a practice mode, not a spectator esport. Changes need to be made to add variety and intrigue to the experience for it to work in a setting like this.

I would want to reserve at least one or two over the duration of the tournament to ensure that players can play on the maps they want to play on and, if properly scheduled, there won't be any trouble with other players on the server.

Requiring demo recording is a no-brainer, but thank you for adding it.

FaceIt's tourney is a thing, my man. I don't have money for a prize-pool like that, and MGE with a twist is what I'm interested in running. You're welcome to sponsor your own tourney or donate to a prize-pool of one you agree with if an MGE tourney isn't something you're interested in.

Honestly, why did you even click this thread if you knew there wasn't anything here for you?

I mean, a tourney is a tourney regardless of who's running it.

And you're not giving me anything- at best, I'll break even for the money spent with enough signups, with all of the rest going toward casting/production/the prize pool. I have no desire to profit from this.

I prefer the current coinflip system so people can get a fighting chance. Your typical first-to-20 MGE is 5-10 minutes on the same map, on the same class, with very little variety involved. It's usually a foregone conclusion halfway through, too.

Nobody in this tourney would be granted an unfair advantage. Class-picking is mitigated by the other person map-picking, and even then class-picking isn't a guaranteed advantage.

For instance, let's say you're terrible at Soldier and Demoman but excellent with Scout and Pyro. Your opponent excels at the explosive classes, and he gets to pick class on the first coinflip.

Round 1, you lose the Soldier matchup.

Round 2, you get to pick class. You get to choose to do a Scout matchup. The other person gets to choose a map that ensures you won't cheese him too hard. You are still not guaranteed victory, because he may well have better aim and movement than you, but you are given a fighting chance. Assuming you win this round, it goes on to the tiebreaker.

Round 3, no restrictions, random map. Neither of you are at any advantage or disadvantage. At this point, it's about who can best counterplay the other: it's to see who is actually better at the game. You could pull out Pyro at this point to shut down his projectiles, for instance, or he could counter that strategy with a Scout pick. etc etc.

There are more classes in this game than just Scout and Soldier. Skill also involves counterpicking and adapting to what your opponent is doing, which I believe the rules of this tournament would encourage.

I kinda wanna so a single-prize pool tourney, both for simplicity reasons and organizational reasons. I'd only consider dividing the tournament into tiers if a lot of people sign up.

in-game and with first-person view while waiting to figtht, yes.

but third-person and casted? I think it has the potential to be entertaining, especially with shorter-rounds and counter class-and-map-picks

It's multi-round, and I want to keep it fast-paced and interesting. 3 full rounds of MGE would be a pain to spectate.

Got it, thank you.

Multiple. quick rounds is so that there are multiple maps and potentially multiple classes in play, depending on what the competitors choose. I want to keep it interesting to watch, and frankly I don't believe stock MGE meets that challenge.

At worst, you'd be forced to play the class for a single round. If you have superior aim/DM, you should be able to overcome them anyways. If, say, you win the first round as Soldier and they choose a Pyro ditto for the second round, the third round is always free-choice and you can counterplay any class they pick if you're truly the better player.

That does sound incredibly silly, but the only reason that would happen is, again, if one of the competitors chooses a Pyro ditto and the second one decides that it's best played on Spire. Class- or free class choice- is decided before the map, so nobody is going to be unexpectedly put into Pyro v Pyro Spire unless both people want it for some godawful reason. In which case, why stop them?

Like you said, it's not like the top players are Pyro/Spy mains who'd make it to the higher brackets are going to do something like that anyways. No reason to restrict something that'd be a non-issue for serious/strong competitors and a potential advantage for creative ones.

I see your point. Do you have a better recommendation for seeding/bracket?

Also, remember, this is MGE. It won't be teams playing, just individual players.