just for the sake of argument i want to see what happens when we nerf a soldier weapon this drastically.

the problem is that every other class is utility. They're either only good at defense and shitty/slow at offense or you have to wait a century and a half for things to get a pick.

What we had was what was the fastest game pace with how the classes were designed.

Also seriously I would not want to play against a full time heavy. I'd play highlander if I wanted that shit.

Not saying it won't be bad from a spectator POV. Valve made the change im just adapting to it.

The teams that think outside will benefit the most.

The real point of the update

http://i.imgur.com/j0ccI59.png

http://i.imgur.com/DlljBpG.gif

So you shoot the stickies on the point, charge in the demo with the charge and laugh at their demo trying to sticky you?

More strats coming soon..

If you wanna put on your tinfoil hat, Valve clearly made stickies awful so you would buy more shields and other goofy pub weapons.

unlock mini sentry, ill full time engi bishes

>>> http://strawpoll.me/1952868 <<<<

Cyzer? More like pollzer...!!

I just remembered that the new stickies are the same system as gang garrison 2 used for mines at some point
which was removed because it didn't work well for gameplay and was even more unintuitive than tf2's system at the time
gg valve can't learn from other peoples' mistakes

wrangled level 3s with the rescue ranger and pomson+gunslinger+short circuit engineers?
full-time phlog pyros that run as fast as scouts?
full-time tomislav sandvich gru heavies that get whipped by soldiers?
what about bazooka + backup/conch + whip?
what about the quick-fix and vita-saw?
what about 152% speed scouts with mad milk and triple jump?

what about 4 heavy 2 medic, or 3 heavy 3 medic, or 6 wrangled sentries on last or some other bullshit

how could you even consider any of that a positive change

That's a good point. There's a million ways to nerf stickies. This way is glitch inconsistent by the nature of it.

except for the fact that soldier isn't good to start with

fragga finally vindicated

More weapon combinations means more variations on the game, and different counters. Phlog pyro? Rocket and pill to death, or Heavy bullet it the poor mmph. Tomislav gru Heavy? Better run a Sniper!

Each of the classes and their weapons are all supposed to have checks and balances, counters, etc. By allowing everything, the meta will most definitely change but can be said as anything but stagnant. The weapons you're mentioning definitely don't fit in the existing 6's meta, but that meta is out the window with the sticky changes, so why not give something else new a chance while we're already mixing things up?

and the game turns into who can outgay the other team.

http://teamfortress.tv/thread/16534#23

I think it points to how ridiculous this update was for demo if top teams are actually considering running a heavy to mid instead of a demo.

Stickies needed to be nerfed, and the game needed to change.

But if the concept of demo being so useless as to run pyro or heavy to mid not is not ridiculous, you really need to reevaluate what you want from this game.

has anyone tested playing with QF with this change to demo??

i'm interested in the result..

How about people are overreacting?? Demo isn't worse then heavy on nearly every map, but if you'd have read better you would know it was viadcut, a very small map which was demo's domain, now you just have to predict better (2 sec ahead) Pipes still work the same, and if I'm really honest I barely notice the nerf, syncing stickies is a skill more people need to learn now more than ever.

yeah its not very fun either stickying the ground and hoping someone walks onto your sticks in 2 seconds or airbursting for like 40 damage. feels so bipolar.

I think that'll just solidify switching demo to heavy since a demo can no longer significantly outDPS the heals of that thing on a heavy

Lets run through a scenario then.

One team runs heavy to mid, the other demo. Heavy fully overhealed has 450 hp, and although nerfed, can spin up and start putting down some hitscan laserbeam damage.

The demo has 260 health when fully overhealed, and if he wanted to kill the heavy must use all 8 stickies, hoping they all did 50 damage each, or all four pipes with 1 to 2 stickies. But maybe he shouldn't focus the heavy since then his damage isn't focused on the other members of the opposing team. Well then the heavy roams free and as people know a fully buffed soldier bombing a fully buffed heavy on mid will generally lose. Same goes with scout.

So you have a monstrous, tanky laser beam class versus a lower health, lower damage class on mid, whose primary weapon is less predictable and harder to aim, while also having a clip size of four.

How is the heavy not better?

Edit: Oh and the whole sticky trap areal denial for mid is stupid since a) if you do that your damage is drastically reduced, allowing people to essentially get to point with full buffs b) most players that aren't terrible aren't just going to run into your sticky traps every mid and die, sticky traps are supposed to be used strategically to catch players and punish them,not make an easily avoided minefield around yourself on mid

i love these threads ROFL

i can't wait to see the conga rollouts to mid

Has anyone tried the Scottish Resistance out now in a pug/lobby/etc with stock nerfed? Is it now a viable alternative or do you still think it's going to go unloved?

The thing that really confuses me is why did Valve pick now to nerf the sticky launcher? The answer seems to pretty much be the parachute, but the game is 7 years old and the game was well understood. From about just before i46 until about just after i49, class balance never really changed much, new unlocks/changes to existing weapons didn't really have a massive impact to how the game was played and you could see the impact it had, strategies and gamesense were at a better point than ever, when the game has remained roughly constant for that long, you have to concentrate on the smaller deficiencies in your play to get the edge. And now that's gone in an instant. Someone commented earlier about how no one would be complaining if this had happened 6 months after the initial release of the game and that's right, it would have been OK then, people would have adapted and 7 years worth of strategies and gamesense would have been built on that. Now it's back to square one with everyone learning.

What I would be interested to see is the reaction of people who currently support the update if it were to be reverted.

You do realise that every map except Viaduct (which I said heavy was a better choice) has Height advantage for soldiers, you people think like demo is the only player on this mid fight.

depending on the map the heavy will be too slow to mid and the other teams demo will have performed enough area denial (without pressure from an opposing demo it will be pretty easy to set up enough sticks without immediately detting for this to be effective) to win his team the mid

That is true. Demo's mobility will still be an advantage over classes like Heavy or Pyro when it comes to getting to mid and does offer opportunities that running the other classes will not.

But with that in mind, it still does not change the fact that running a heavy to mid is much easier, and more effective than before, as opposed to running vanilla classes. With a changing meta plenty of mid strategies could be developed around them that makes them more viable, or just as viable, as running demo as it stand now.