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game is really hard theory
1
#1
0 Frags +

I was watching the botmode stream over last lan with lots of experienced players watching/commentating the matches.

On pretty much every play that was talked about, people often disagreed on if plays/calls were good or not. Like there was very little consensus. While watching csgo in comparison, people pretty much agree on if plays are good or not, and can even be evaluated by casters not even analysts.

Possible reasons:
* tf2 is faster paced (more decisions per second, faster movement speed)
* tf2 underdeveloped strategically
* game is really hard theory

IMO, 6s is just a much harder game strategically that other games. Maybe this is hurting growth because even if a new player manages to get into a lobby, they are smacked in the face with tons of strategy that not even players with 7k hours could master

thoughts?

I was watching the botmode stream over last lan with lots of experienced players watching/commentating the matches.

On pretty much every play that was talked about, people often disagreed on if plays/calls were good or not. Like there was very little consensus. While watching csgo in comparison, people pretty much agree on if plays are good or not, and can even be evaluated by casters not even analysts.

Possible reasons:
* tf2 is faster paced (more decisions per second, faster movement speed)
* tf2 underdeveloped strategically
* game is really hard theory

IMO, 6s is just a much harder game strategically that other games. Maybe this is hurting growth because even if a new player manages to get into a lobby, they are smacked in the face with tons of strategy that not even players with 7k hours could master

thoughts?
2
#2
41 Frags +

peak autofellatio thread

peak autofellatio thread
3
#3
-2 Frags +

maybe i just suck and its not that hard

maybe i just suck and its not that hard
4
#4
-7 Frags +

in every game people at the lower level don't understand the top level plays

this game isn't any harder to understand than any of the other shooter esports

in every game people at the lower level don't understand the top level plays

this game isn't any harder to understand than any of the other shooter esports
5
#5
-8 Frags +

u really believe that every twitch chatter agrees whether any given cs call is good or bad

u really believe that every twitch chatter agrees whether any given cs call is good or bad
6
#6
1 Frags +
tommymaybe i just suck and its not that hard

to be a bit more serious about your post, tf2 does require a different set of skills compared to cs or a moba. like a csgo player will probably struggle trying to do the most basic rocket jumps or know how to play demoman besides just trapping a choke. but tf2 players will also probably struggle trying to do spray patterns at the heat of the moment or know granade physics/spots or any other skills that cs players have been honing for more than a decade at this point

i just find it silly to think about it in a way of "oh THIS game takes SO MUCH MORE SKILL than this other game". you could maybe argue this with games that are so similar like tf2/ow and csgo/val but for something as different as csgo, or a moba, or rocket league or whatever other electronic sport you can think of, i just find the discussion a bit pointless and potentially just a place for people to jerk off about "yeah i spent so much time into a game that has yet reward me for my training, but at least i am more skilled than s1mple"

[quote=tommy]maybe i just suck and its not that hard[/quote]
to be a bit more serious about your post, tf2 does require a different set of skills compared to cs or a moba. like a csgo player will probably struggle trying to do the most basic rocket jumps or know how to play demoman besides just trapping a choke. but tf2 players will also probably struggle trying to do spray patterns at the heat of the moment or know granade physics/spots or any other skills that cs players have been honing for more than a decade at this point

i just find it silly to think about it in a way of "oh THIS game takes SO MUCH MORE SKILL than this other game". you could maybe argue this with games that are so similar like tf2/ow and csgo/val but for something as different as csgo, or a moba, or rocket league or whatever other electronic sport you can think of, i just find the discussion a bit pointless and potentially just a place for people to jerk off about "yeah i spent so much time into a game that has yet reward me for my training, but at least i am more skilled than s1mple"
7
#7
4 Frags +

I would think of it as there being multiple viable strategies and it really depends on what kind of system or playstyle you want to adopt. For example wg play style of killing your med and leaving or Froyo playstyle of being hyper aggressive with your combo pushing into flanks. Also execution is much more important than the particular play itself. Bad plays or low percentage plays are good if you kill everyone and if your team can execute it consistently while other teams can not, is it a bad play or a good play? A good example in the NFL would be Patrick Mahomes. Dude has crazy fundamentally bad throws, but they are good because he can execute them consistently.

I would think of it as there being multiple viable strategies and it really depends on what kind of system or playstyle you want to adopt. For example wg play style of killing your med and leaving or Froyo playstyle of being hyper aggressive with your combo pushing into flanks. Also execution is much more important than the particular play itself. Bad plays or low percentage plays are good if you kill everyone and if your team can execute it consistently while other teams can not, is it a bad play or a good play? A good example in the NFL would be Patrick Mahomes. Dude has crazy fundamentally bad throws, but they are good because he can execute them consistently.
8
#8
-5 Frags +

Was there any specific moment in the stream where people were disagreeing on a play that was made? I watched the LAN with a group of people and there was a general agreement on statements like, "They should've pushed in earlier", "Someone should've been watching lobby", "Their team should've been making pressure for the soldier sack instead of going in alone".

Was there any specific moment in the stream where people were disagreeing on a play that was made? I watched the LAN with a group of people and there was a general agreement on statements like, "They should've pushed in earlier", "Someone should've been watching lobby", "Their team should've been making pressure for the soldier sack instead of going in alone".
9
#9
7 Frags +
ElenaManettaWas there any specific moment in the stream where people were disagreeing on a play that was made?

The entirety of tf2easy vs wg on sunshine especially was a mind bending experience.

[quote=ElenaManetta]Was there any specific moment in the stream where people were disagreeing on a play that was made?[/quote]

The entirety of tf2easy vs wg on sunshine especially was a mind bending experience.
10
#10
9 Frags +
smesitommymaybe i just suck and its not that hardto be a bit more serious about your post, tf2 does require a different set of skills compared to cs or a moba. like a csgo player will probably struggle trying to do the most basic rocket jumps or know how to play demoman besides just trapping a choke. but tf2 players will also probably struggle trying to do spray patterns at the heat of the moment or know granade physics/spots or any other skills that cs players have been honing for more than a decade at this point

i just find it silly to think about it in a way of "oh THIS game takes SO MUCH MORE SKILL than this other game". you could maybe argue this with games that are so similar like tf2/ow and csgo/val but for something as different as csgo, or a moba, or rocket league or whatever other electronic sport you can think of, i just find the discussion a bit pointless and potentially just a place for people to jerk off about "yeah i spent so much time into a game that has yet reward me for my training, but at least i am more skilled than s1mple"

he's not referring to mechanics, those are whatever

the question is about decision making

[quote=smesi][quote=tommy]maybe i just suck and its not that hard[/quote]
to be a bit more serious about your post, tf2 does require a different set of skills compared to cs or a moba. like a csgo player will probably struggle trying to do the most basic rocket jumps or know how to play demoman besides just trapping a choke. but tf2 players will also probably struggle trying to do spray patterns at the heat of the moment or know granade physics/spots or any other skills that cs players have been honing for more than a decade at this point

i just find it silly to think about it in a way of "oh THIS game takes SO MUCH MORE SKILL than this other game". you could maybe argue this with games that are so similar like tf2/ow and csgo/val but for something as different as csgo, or a moba, or rocket league or whatever other electronic sport you can think of, i just find the discussion a bit pointless and potentially just a place for people to jerk off about "yeah i spent so much time into a game that has yet reward me for my training, but at least i am more skilled than s1mple"[/quote]

he's not referring to mechanics, those are whatever

the question is about decision making
11
#11
1 Frags +

im like 73% sure ive seen the same original post but for melee. its just a game with a lot of expression, at a team and player level. Not everyone is going to agree with certain plays cause theres always a different(ish) way to cap the next point. Plus most divisions are small enough across all the scenes to kinda meta-game your opponents by trying to attack their specific weaknesses and thusly they develop counter tactics then so do you yadayadayada.

im like 73% sure ive seen the same original post but for melee. its just a game with a lot of expression, at a team and player level. Not everyone is going to agree with certain plays cause theres always a different(ish) way to cap the next point. Plus most divisions are small enough across all the scenes to kinda meta-game your opponents by trying to attack their specific weaknesses and thusly they develop counter tactics then so do you yadayadayada.
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