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cp_cardinal (5CP)
121
#121
1 Frags +

plz fix the fps problems on this map.

also the last point does not work imo

plz fix the fps problems on this map.

also the last point does not work imo
122
#122
2 Frags +

Could use a bit of polish, but for the most part I think the map is pretty dang fun to play. My major gripe with it is the lobby area in front of last. It's like badlands lobby, but with even more ground to cover, making it extremely difficult to push out of last without a major advantage. Even full uber ads are too easy for the team holding 2nd to kite. Either you uber in, fail to catch anything significant, and then wind up fighting a 4v6 at best while your flank is struggling to clear all the ground in lobby, or you get backcapped. Or I guess you could just sit and hope your sniper or sac manages to grab like 3 kills. It doesn't help that the most reliable way for the defenders to push out and get close is through bats, which also like badlands, sets you up totally even with the point, making you an easy spam target.

I feel that lobby would hugely benefit from just being cut down, or maybe making some surfaces transparent. Whatever makes it faster to transition through lobby. It would also be good to give the defenders pushing out an advantage in the fight over 2nd. It's nice to be able to jump from point to bats, but raising bats up to be a stronger position over the point would be nice as well.

also forgot to mention how difficult it is to sac out of last. the demo can lock off every worthwhile entrance by just standing in upper lobby

Could use a bit of polish, but for the most part I think the map is pretty dang fun to play. My major gripe with it is the lobby area in front of last. It's like badlands lobby, but with even more ground to cover, making it extremely difficult to push out of last without a major advantage. Even full uber ads are too easy for the team holding 2nd to kite. Either you uber in, fail to catch anything significant, and then wind up fighting a 4v6 at best while your flank is struggling to clear all the ground in lobby, or you get backcapped. Or I guess you could just sit and hope your sniper or sac manages to grab like 3 kills. It doesn't help that the most reliable way for the defenders to push out and get close is through bats, which also like badlands, sets you up totally even with the point, making you an easy spam target.

I feel that lobby would hugely benefit from just being cut down, or maybe making some surfaces transparent. Whatever makes it faster to transition through lobby. It would also be good to give the defenders pushing out an advantage in the fight over 2nd. It's nice to be able to jump from point to bats, but raising bats up to be a stronger position over the point would be nice as well.

also forgot to mention how difficult it is to sac out of last. the demo can lock off every worthwhile entrance by just standing in upper lobby
123
#123
1 Frags +

This was a tweet from June 4th. Might be a bit before updates are read or pushed.

PhiFor my TF2 followers - all projects (including Cardinal, which was previously planned to be put on the Steam Workshop this week) are postponed until further notice.

I don't know how long it will be until my computer is fixed. Motherboard is shot. Gonna be a while. Apologies.
This was a tweet from June 4th. Might be a bit before updates are read or pushed.
[quote=Phi]For my TF2 followers - all projects (including Cardinal, which was previously planned to be put on the Steam Workshop this week) are postponed until further notice.

I don't know how long it will be until my computer is fixed. Motherboard is shot. Gonna be a while. Apologies.[/quote]
124
#124
0 Frags +

-

-
125
#125
cp_sunshine, cp_cardinal
38 Frags +

I'm breaking the collaboration between myself and b4nny for my map, Cardinal, as well as departing from competitive TF2 as a whole. I figured you all deserve to know what's going on.

I will still be updating this map to see it out, but working with the community as a whole has drawn to an end for me. I really don't want to leave, as the 5cp 6v6 gamemode is the single most interesting version of TF2 to make my maps for – but I don't feel like I can stay any longer. I won't be making any more competitively-focused maps.

Thank you for all the feedback, help, and opportunities. I wish I could stay around for just those aspects and not everything else I encounter.

It's no specific incident that created this, just a long stream of constant negative experiences that made me slowly move further and further away from the community. What made me decide to break it off now was just a culmination of everything.

I've been experiencing harassment due to being trans ever since Sunshine became popular. If you've ever wondered why I never show up on any streams, or interviews about my maps, even though I've been offered multiple times... that's why. I keep myself distant because I know so many people in this community hate my guts. Not because of what I do, but who I am; and I know this from what I see.

The recent events happening involving multiple specific high-level players, alongside the responses made from certain others, lead me to fully understand this is not a scene which I want to be in. Nothing was specifically targeted at me as an individual, but trans harm affects all trans people. I see no desire by the top players themselves to improve the community, only the messed-up moral high ground they poise themselves on, claiming that the publicity being given to these issues is 'bad professionalism'.

I don't gain anything from this. Hell, I'd be better off if I left silently, without a word, quietly updating my maps until they completed, then vanishing. I vanish enough as it is; it wouldn't be hard. I lose access to testing, connections to Valve, and immensely valuable feedback. I am voluntarily withdrawing from the competitive TF2 community not because I gain social points for doing so, but because of people who neglect to care about attempts to bring to light deep-seated issues in the scene. I am withdrawing because I do not feel like the scene will ever learn to care about people like me.

Please, if you're a top-level player and you disagree with your comrades, perhaps you should speak up instead of letting them speak for you.

Peace.

I'm breaking the collaboration between myself and b4nny for my map, Cardinal, as well as departing from competitive TF2 as a whole. I figured you all deserve to know what's going on.

I will still be updating this map to see it out, but working with the community as a whole has drawn to an end for me. I really don't want to leave, as the 5cp 6v6 gamemode is the single most interesting version of TF2 to make my maps for – but I don't feel like I can stay any longer. I won't be making any more competitively-focused maps.

Thank you for all the feedback, help, and opportunities. I wish I could stay around for just those aspects and not everything else I encounter.

It's no specific incident that created this, just a long stream of constant negative experiences that made me slowly move further and further away from the community. What made me decide to break it off now was just a culmination of everything.

I've been experiencing harassment due to being trans ever since Sunshine became popular. If you've ever wondered why I never show up on any streams, or interviews about my maps, even though I've been offered multiple times... that's why. I keep myself distant because I know so many people in this community hate my guts. Not because of what I do, but who I am; and I know this from what I see.

The recent events happening involving multiple specific high-level players, alongside the responses made from certain others, lead me to fully understand this is not a scene which I want to be in. Nothing was specifically targeted at me as an individual, but trans harm affects all trans people. I see no desire by the top players themselves to improve the community, only the messed-up moral high ground they poise themselves on, claiming that the publicity being given to these issues is 'bad professionalism'.

I don't gain anything from this. Hell, I'd be better off if I left silently, without a word, quietly updating my maps until they completed, then vanishing. I vanish enough as it is; it wouldn't be hard. I lose access to testing, connections to Valve, and immensely valuable feedback. I am voluntarily withdrawing from the competitive TF2 community not because I gain social points for doing so, but because of people who neglect to care about attempts to bring to light deep-seated issues in the scene. I am withdrawing because I do not feel like the scene will ever learn to care about people like me.

Please, if you're a top-level player and you disagree with your comrades, perhaps you should speak up instead of letting them speak for you.

Peace.
126
#126
14 Frags +

Is it possible to inform us as to who these players are or which circles are guilty of this specifically? Perhaps then we could analyze the issue more thoroughly. It may not be enough to save you but it may be enough for the rest of us to be more attentive to these issues and put the necessary pressure to see this all start going towards a better path. It helps no one if we continue to regard these offenders as an abstract and nebulous group of "high leveled players".

The "beauty" of a mob is that no one is responsible for it. By continuing to shy away from identifying people nothing will be done.

Is it possible to inform us as to who these players are or which circles are guilty of this specifically? Perhaps then we could analyze the issue more thoroughly. It may not be enough to save you but it may be enough for the rest of us to be more attentive to these issues and put the necessary pressure to see this all start going towards a better path. It helps no one if we continue to regard these offenders as an abstract and nebulous group of "high leveled players".

The "beauty" of a mob is that no one is responsible for it. By continuing to shy away from identifying people nothing will be done.
127
#127
-8 Frags +

Have there been any new updates to this map?

I wish we had any info on who was harassing...

Have there been any new updates to this map?

I wish we had any info on who was harassing...
128
#128
cp_sunshine, cp_cardinal
10 Frags +

Hi,

I'm planning an RC2 update to Cardinal. I am not returning to the community, but I would like to hear what everyone considers to be aspects of the map that could do with change in a new version.

The new version will be out in January 2020 alongside an update to Reckoner. This date is not subject to change so I would appreciate all feedback to be in before December. If there isn't interest or enough feedback, I'll take that as a sign that my time is best spent elsewhere. The update will focus on feedback posted in this thread, so please don't leave out things because they were said in a different thread 6 months ago. All feedback from bug fixes to major layout issues are welcome.

EDIT: While the date was originally "not subject to change", I don't believe I will be releasing an update for this map anytime soon for the time being. If I do finish the update I will post it here. I'm not participating in the comp community anymore, this is merely updating its existing thread, and this will happen on my own time if I decide it is worth it.

The update will include re-detailing focused on removing noisy textures and props (Frontline et. al.), reducing filesize, and optimising; alongside changes based on feedback posted here.

If you've tried/are trying to contact me about this map over Steam, please post feedback here instead.

Cheers

Hi,

I'm planning an RC2 update to Cardinal. I am not returning to the community, but I would like to hear what everyone considers to be aspects of the map that could do with change in a new version.

The new version will be out in [b]January 2020[/b] alongside an update to [url=https://www.teamfortress.tv/29927/cp-reckoner-5cp]Reckoner[/url]. This date is not subject to change so I would appreciate all feedback to be in before December. If there isn't interest or enough feedback, I'll take that as a sign that my time is best spent elsewhere. The update will focus on feedback posted [b]in this thread[/b], so please don't leave out things because they were said in a different thread 6 months ago. All feedback from bug fixes to major layout issues are welcome.

[u]EDIT: While the date was originally "not subject to change", I don't believe I will be releasing an update for this map anytime soon for the time being. If I do finish the update I will post it here.[/u] I'm not participating in the comp community anymore, this is merely updating its existing thread, and this will happen on my own time if I decide it is worth it.

The update will include re-detailing focused on removing noisy textures and props (Frontline et. al.), reducing filesize, and optimising; alongside changes based on feedback posted here.

If you've tried/are trying to contact me about this map over Steam, please post feedback here instead.

Cheers
129
#129
5 Frags +

Glad to see an update is coming. Here's some feedback I've gathered based on many playtests of version RC1A.

1. Standardize the spawns for both sides.
From my experience, the BLU team tends to spawn more skewed off to the left side of the spawn room, while the RED team tends to spawn more skewed off to the right side of the spawn room. Generally the right side of the spawn is preferred to be used as the main exit, so it currently gives a small advantage to the RED side. Unless you centralize all of the spawns, the spawns on the RED side should be mimicked.

https://i.imgur.com/IpgrYYT.jpg

2. Remove the clipping on the spawn garage props.
By climbing on the tank and then across the tops of these garage doors you are able to get pretty much any class on top of the shed, which is a position that should probably be reserved for classes that have high mobility so that defending doesn't become too easy.

https://i.imgur.com/9wMvSVh.jpg

3. Raise one of the walls on last to give an option for a soldier wall jump.
Since some have voiced concerns over last being difficult to break open, offering an additional option for the offense could be useful. If this wall was a bit higher, soldiers entering from the shutter hallway could have additional options for getting into the fight or going for plays/forces.

https://i.imgur.com/0IlgG1k.jpg

4. Reduce the size of the building on the 2nd point.
Right now I would say the single biggest issue on the map is the flow of the 2nd point. Neither attackers nor defenders really have great options for fighting around the point because of the obstruction of vision/mobility due to the sheer size of the building. Often you get awkward ring-around-the-rosie fights happening here. Also, when one team pushes from the opposite side, it becomes very difficult to rotate to the other side to apply pressure. I would suggest to keep the balcony that overlooks the front chokes, as well as the side shed structure, but remove the majority of the building (outlined in red), and potentially replace it with a new height structure that can be jumped over and landed on.

https://i.imgur.com/R3CJYet.jpg

5. Standardize the cover of fences on the 2nd point.
On RED side there is an additional fence blocking some sightlines present, whereas it is missing on BLU side. I believe the fence should be on both sides, mimicking how it appears on the RED side.

https://i.imgur.com/PtcxBkP.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Xy7atCr.jpg

6. Widen the side path on 2nd.
The side path on 2nd is a bit narrow and could potentially be widened up for more free movement.

https://i.imgur.com/GAmhsFg.jpg

7. Replace one of the rocks on 2nd with a fence.
The rocks on 2nd are very large and take up a lot of space, lending to a cramped, cluttered feeling at times, especially if you are walking on the low ground. This rock on 2nd could probably easily be replaced by a thin fence, like some of the other cover around the area, and still serve the purpose of blocking the sightline, but taking up far less space. This could potentially be done with some of the other rocks around the map, but this seemed the most obvious one to start with.

https://i.imgur.com/JjcUqfM.jpg

8. Fix sticky trap spots in details.
Like some of the other feedback here, this is very specific to the detailing props being used, so if they will be removed when the theme changes, this shouldn't be relevant. The flower pots in these window props that are plentiful on the map do not have any clipping, so stickies can be hidden in every single one of them. These kinds of traps are probably too extreme in this quantity around the map, so I think it should be prevented in the majority of situations, but 1 or 2 throughout the map are fine.

https://i.imgur.com/HAkWtmw.jpg

9. Remove the awning above the mid-connector-building entrance on the 2nd point side.
These awnings are very strong aggressive defending positions or hiding spots, which is good to have, but I think only having one would be sufficient. With two awnings, it becomes very overwhelming to try to push through the building entrance here. The awning immediately above the doorway should be removed, which would allow people to move through the doorway with more confidence while still having to worry about the second awning as a viable hiding spot.

https://i.imgur.com/cbqb8Iy.jpg

10. Smooth out the archway path terrain to facilitate rollouts/rampsliding.
Because the ground on the archway path is very bumpy, it can be very difficult to get any sort of consistent rampslides off it, which is something a lot of people desire to do during rollouts. Making it a bit smoother or ramplike could make it a lot more intuitive for people on rollouts and also give people a high skill option for mid, that will likely make people enjoy the map more.

https://i.imgur.com/Dd0IjYQ.jpg

11. Clean up some of the ground clipping on mid.
As you enter mid and hug this wall, the clipping of the rocks along the ground and the small ledge do feel a bit awkward.

https://i.imgur.com/Z4tZJZN.jpg

12. Adjust the mid forward spawn positioning/pathing.
The forward spawn on mid currently opens directly into the fountain being right in your face, which is a bit awkward and jarring. Adjusting the spacing or positioning of the spawn or the profile or positioning of the fountain could help with this. I know you said the frontline assets may be removed entirely, but if the fountain somehow is being kept, a custom clipping of it could be useful, since it has some annoying splash-eating properties especially on the very top ring.

https://i.imgur.com/sg2m1OH.jpg

Hope it helps. Good luck.

Glad to see an update is coming. Here's some feedback I've gathered based on many playtests of version RC1A.

1. [b]Standardize the spawns for both sides.[/b]
From my experience, the BLU team tends to spawn more skewed off to the left side of the spawn room, while the RED team tends to spawn more skewed off to the right side of the spawn room. Generally the right side of the spawn is preferred to be used as the main exit, so it currently gives a small advantage to the RED side. Unless you centralize all of the spawns, the spawns on the RED side should be mimicked.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/IpgrYYT.jpg[/img]

2. [b]Remove the clipping on the spawn garage props. [/b]
By climbing on the tank and then across the tops of these garage doors you are able to get pretty much any class on top of the shed, which is a position that should probably be reserved for classes that have high mobility so that defending doesn't become too easy.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/9wMvSVh.jpg[/img]

3. [b]Raise one of the walls on last to give an option for a soldier wall jump.[/b]
Since some have voiced concerns over last being difficult to break open, offering an additional option for the offense could be useful. If this wall was a bit higher, soldiers entering from the shutter hallway could have additional options for getting into the fight or going for plays/forces.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/0IlgG1k.jpg[/img]

4.[b] Reduce the size of the building on the 2nd point.[/b]
Right now I would say the single biggest issue on the map is the flow of the 2nd point. Neither attackers nor defenders really have great options for fighting around the point because of the obstruction of vision/mobility due to the sheer size of the building. Often you get awkward ring-around-the-rosie fights happening here. Also, when one team pushes from the opposite side, it becomes very difficult to rotate to the other side to apply pressure. I would suggest to keep the balcony that overlooks the front chokes, as well as the side shed structure, but remove the majority of the building (outlined in red), and potentially replace it with a new height structure that can be jumped over and landed on.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/R3CJYet.jpg[/img]

5. [b]Standardize the cover of fences on the 2nd point.[/b]
On RED side there is an additional fence blocking some sightlines present, whereas it is missing on BLU side. I believe the fence should be on both sides, mimicking how it appears on the RED side.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/PtcxBkP.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/Xy7atCr.jpg[/img]

6. [b]Widen the side path on 2nd. [/b]
The side path on 2nd is a bit narrow and could potentially be widened up for more free movement.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/GAmhsFg.jpg[/img]

7. [b]Replace one of the rocks on 2nd with a fence.[/b]
The rocks on 2nd are very large and take up a lot of space, lending to a cramped, cluttered feeling at times, especially if you are walking on the low ground. This rock on 2nd could probably easily be replaced by a thin fence, like some of the other cover around the area, and still serve the purpose of blocking the sightline, but taking up far less space. This could potentially be done with some of the other rocks around the map, but this seemed the most obvious one to start with.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/JjcUqfM.jpg[/img]

8. [b]Fix sticky trap spots in details.[/b]
Like some of the other feedback here, this is very specific to the detailing props being used, so if they will be removed when the theme changes, this shouldn't be relevant. The flower pots in these window props that are plentiful on the map do not have any clipping, so stickies can be hidden in every single one of them. These kinds of traps are probably too extreme in this quantity around the map, so I think it should be prevented in the majority of situations, but 1 or 2 throughout the map are fine.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/HAkWtmw.jpg[/img]

9. [b]Remove the awning above the mid-connector-building entrance on the 2nd point side. [/b]
These awnings are very strong aggressive defending positions or hiding spots, which is good to have, but I think only having one would be sufficient. With two awnings, it becomes very overwhelming to try to push through the building entrance here. The awning immediately above the doorway should be removed, which would allow people to move through the doorway with more confidence while still having to worry about the second awning as a viable hiding spot.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/cbqb8Iy.jpg[/img]

10. [b]Smooth out the archway path terrain to facilitate rollouts/rampsliding. [/b]
Because the ground on the archway path is very bumpy, it can be very difficult to get any sort of consistent rampslides off it, which is something a lot of people desire to do during rollouts. Making it a bit smoother or ramplike could make it a lot more intuitive for people on rollouts and also give people a high skill option for mid, that will likely make people enjoy the map more.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/Dd0IjYQ.jpg[/img]

11. [b]Clean up some of the ground clipping on mid.[/b]
As you enter mid and hug this wall, the clipping of the rocks along the ground and the small ledge do feel a bit awkward.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/Z4tZJZN.jpg[/img]

12. [b]Adjust the mid forward spawn positioning/pathing.[/b]
The forward spawn on mid currently opens directly into the fountain being right in your face, which is a bit awkward and jarring. Adjusting the spacing or positioning of the spawn or the profile or positioning of the fountain could help with this. I know you said the frontline assets may be removed entirely, but if the fountain somehow is being kept, a custom clipping of it could be useful, since it has some annoying splash-eating properties especially on the very top ring.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/sg2m1OH.jpg[/img]

Hope it helps. Good luck.
130
#130
0 Frags +

some minor nitpicks

https://i.imgur.com/SxQbUzP.jpg

you can stand on some of these lamp posts in 2nd but in others that look exactly the same you can't

https://i.imgur.com/pwt52oM.jpg

same thing with windows

https://i.imgur.com/cHhisMm.jpg

can stand on this prop at mid

some minor nitpicks
[img]https://i.imgur.com/SxQbUzP.jpg[/img]
you [url=https://i.imgur.com/JRlQsIa.jpg]can stand[/url] on some of these lamp posts in 2nd but in others that look exactly the same you can't
[img]https://i.imgur.com/pwt52oM.jpg[/img]
same thing with windows
[img]https://i.imgur.com/cHhisMm.jpg[/img] can [url=https://i.imgur.com/zNOccIs.jpg]stand[/url] on this prop at mid
131
#131
4 Frags +

This god map gets way too much hate. Not that the map is perfect, but it seems like people don't want to get out of their comfort zone.

This god map gets way too much hate. Not that the map is perfect, but it seems like people don't want to get out of their comfort zone.
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