A10 Update
Download: koth_bagel_a10

Based on feedback from IM+ pugs.

Changelog:
- Removed underground route (Didn't contribute anything to the map)
- Added larger platform in its place, moved pickups from underground to there.
- Halved cap time
- Enlarged capzone (Replaced the Bagel shape with a square minus two corners)
- Lowered highest platform entrance to mid (intended to nerf sniper but might mess w/ things, trying for a version to find out)
- Added a little hazard strip to highlight a jump in lobby

Haven't yet addressed concerns over complexity of lobby, it's intended to facilitate forward holds and I wanna let it settle for a bit before I can determine whether/what changes need to be made.

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I'd actually be inclined for an a10v2 where you keep the small point but have a wicked short cap time. We could test both in New Map Pugs or higher level pugs that saam was doing.

I'm not totally sure on what would make an appropriate length but if someone suggests one I'm totally open to doing a test version for that.

If I remember correctly, during the pugs saam timed it to 25 seconds or something. It's currently at 12 which is fine for the current state and cap size in A10.

If you wanted to keep the pretty small size from A9, I think anywhere from 5-9 seconds (probably 7-8) would be super interesting and a new mechanic in a v2 like tsarbucks asked.

Here's an alt version with the old circular cap and an 8s captime: koth_bagel_a10_alt

Nice :) I have one piece of feedback from an inhouse pug I played on this map a couple weeks ago. Overall, the map played really well and I had a lot of fun. There was one problematic sniper sightline though:

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/481148341162154821/44CF9F1FFEA027EEF25862A3F61B9C5AC9921B62/

This platform gave snipers a free view of two entrances to the point area:

https://i.gyazo.com/bfb3830ec0b9f56f2cd215ea745fe908.jpg

A good sniper completely locked my team out of using those two entrances because it was near impossible to contest him: he was miles away from us, and his whole team was right in front of him. If he even were contested, he could just hop off the platform and be in the middle of his 5 teammates. Because we couldn't use those two entrances, we were forced to use the third entrance:

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/481148341162159511/8A906216CBBB6F34EABA8F48BE5C763EDD7E6999/

Not a very advantageous position. It's on low ground surrounded by high ground, and it's not a very large area. It was super easy to get spammed out here, and tough to effectively move forward from, so the potential downside of the sniper (5v6 kinda in a teamfight) was really hard for us to exploit.

I think it's worth changing: Maybe these boxes could be removed to prevent non-mobile classes from reaching that platform?

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/481148341162163121/B465923FEC39DB7C027134A7427F9A5AA60D4F73/

Alternatively, the platform could also be turned into an angled roof so nobody can stand there.

Keep up the good work on the map! I think it's already in a playable state and I hope more people playtest it, especially after the next update.

B1 Update
Download: koth_bagel_b1

The Artpass

Been working on this since around when TotH was on; my first ever complete artpass.

With bagel's name starting to be thrown around a bit I figured I should make the map look presentable, and I tried to give it a unique aesthetic since it's a fairly unique map.

This is just an artpassed version of a10, the only gameplay change is the removal of access to the balcony for non-jumping classes, and the removal of a perch spot I never saw used. I will revert these changes if they prove to be poor decisions. Please tell me if I accidentally added a weird spot or blocked a rollout or something.

I am still very open to changing and updating this map, if you have any problems with it or suggestions, please tell me and explain why you think they are a problem. Sometimes the most obvious solution isn't the best one, as it could be a symptom of a larger problem that could be better addressed.

(also this map is not viaduct, so any issues that boil down to "it's different from viaduct" rly need a good reason to fix)

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looks like you'd default hold mid with the combo in house. if this is true (ive only run around the map in 4s where there was no such thing as a hold) then imo you should make more room on the decking on house so it's less claustrophobic (point itself was very close-quarters even with only 4 people there) making the door onto the decking very open (like a big barn door almost the width of the decking for instance) would be decent. you could also extend the decking into house quite a bit (and move the houses out) or replace the houses with some kind of open fence arrangement

i really like the shape of the map though and the art pass looks great. should definitely be considered for the next 6s season, more koth is good.

My inner koth_bagel fanboy is intensifying.

B1A
Download: koth_bagel_b1a

Found clip exploits almost immediately after posting b1, fixed them and added a couple other small non-gameplay updates.

Changelog:
- Fixed some clipping issues
- Fixed/Edited soundscapes
- Added decent spec cams

We hosted a double mix on this last night. I and others had a lot of fun and voiced admiration for this map and thought it had potential. We discussed some changed we'd like to see experimented with (in priority order:

More obsticles to dodge behind/on (The map feels very flat and it makes it very easy to edge the point, there's no real places for medics to hold even remotely safely during a team fight and scouts seem to get pounded, would feel better if the map was more enclosed with more props such as boxes, ramps, trucks, logs?) (One thing we discussed was on the flat area when you rollout to the left, having the sheet of metal rotated to be facing the same way as the ramp with two smaller exists would still allow for spam but not as heavily, if you're looking for an example we took inspiration from reckoner last middle entrance)

Decreased sniper sightlines (Koth maps keen towards defensive snipers anyway, but having these long sightlines because of the barren space makes it really unfun, as you can't punish a sniper who is sitting on bats or in the connector/house)

Encouraging different playstyles (While this could be a fault of limited map testing, it seems like there is only 1 way to hold the point, on viaduct we see different positions based on the uber advantage, but this doesn't seem encouraged on Bagel, there are no real defensive positions for medics, or aggressive even uber positions, it just doesn't seem like there's a lot of room for different hold styles, we did discourage the idea of a forward hold since there's lots of large doors that are hard to cover, not sure if this was the intention. Although this point is subjective, it feels like it needs some room to experiment with defensive and aggressive positions.)

Narrowing the chokes (At the bottom of the list since we were unclear about your intention of the playstyle of the map, but it feels like the doors towards the point are way too large, and if you're on the defending perspective, it's very hard to stop them from walking through for free, which i feel should be an advantage if you're holding the point)

Increasing areas to jump from (it feels like there is only 1 way to jump to not get instantly denied by scouts which makes it super predictable, I would suggest maybe adding some ramps or making some skip jumps available for sollies, they seem relatively immobile when playing the 6's cookie cutter).

Hope this info is of value to you, would really like to see this map hopefully in a league one day.

I played those mixes and I have to say that I liked the map a lot. We played the alpha version so we had that ridiculous sniper sightline on top of that ledge, but that seems to have been adressed in the beta. However, there seems to be another couple of very long ones:

http://imgur.com/vPah3ZV.jpg

http://imgur.com/htBOjHm.jpg

http://imgur.com/v8V8qvv.jpg

http://imgur.com/WY0E0vT.jpg

I think the biggest problem with those is that 3 of them punish you for pushing from the best place, which is (your) left side. The other exits have a very pronounced height disadvantage and are extremely easy to spam from a safe distance.

Dolly talked about the idea of moving the sheet of metal like this:

http://imgur.com/iCVL44J.jpg

However, this removes all the visibility of the point you could have when pushing out and it still doesn't give the medic a safe place to retreat to, as you can see here:

http://imgur.com/PcfRGrB.jpg

It also gives the demo extra places to trap (both sides of the sheet).

I personally would like to see this:

http://imgur.com/J1wbNDB.jpg

. As you can see, it lets the medic have some sort of cover while enabling sick jumps and surfs that soldiers are going to love. It still doesn't address the sniper sightlines, but those could probaly still be fixed some other way. It also doesn't let soldiers stand on top of it for easy spam of the entrance. They can still stand on it, but they have no way to leave safely.

Something that I noticed is that soldier bombs were really hard to stop. This could be because of the lack of cover but it's also because they can jump so high that shooting at them doesn't do much. They jump from a higher place than scouts are usually at and they go even higher than that with the jump, obviously. I know the pipe on top of the middle in product can be annoying when you hit it with your head, but I think doing something like this in this map should be considered.

And another minor thing:

http://imgur.com/nbX8hUX.jpg

This roof is clipped and you can stand on top of it, but not on the other side's roof, which isn't clipped and screws up your jumps from underneath it.

I would also like to hear why the yard in front of the spawns is so big. It seems unnecessary to walk that far away just to enter another lobby.

Good luck with the map!

Thank you so much for this feedback!

I've been working more on the artpass since b1 and, while it's nearly finished now, I really don't mind going back over it to address some of these issues if it makes it a better map overall. I may not make the exact changes suggested but I'll definitely consider the reasoning behind them when looking at addressing the problems.

As for intentions with the map, the large lobby was designed to accomodate forward holds but also provide ways to break them, and the large spawn yard was to discourage holding any further forward than the lobby (i think? it was a long time ago). If these are an issue, or otherwise don't work as intended, I can try and do something about them, but I'd like to see forward holds experimented with a bit more before I do anything permanent with them.

B2 - Artpass/Workshop release only, gameplay changes coming later
Download: koth_bagel_b2

Check out Bagel on the TF2 Workshop!

Completed artpass for workshop release. Next version I'll start experimenting with the gameplay changes suggested in the thread, but this version needed to be out and done with first so I could stop stressing about it.

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E1 - Experimental Update
Download: koth_bagel_e1

A bunch of experimental changes based on feedback, ideas, and discussion. Really wanna see some games on this version to find out how the changes play.
(No changes are final, if some of them turn out to be dumb and dont work they can be removed)

Help me make Bagel better \o/

Changelog (click for images):

• Map made brighter for visibility
  
• New crate on concrete (blocks sightlines to other concrete)
  
• New crates in valley to provide more cover
  
• Jutting rafters removed, rafters made solid and blockbulleted (so you can jump off them)
  
• Made boiler chokier
  
• (Hugely experimental) Added window and balcony to lobby
  
• Misc smaller changes
  
• Misc visual changes to make stuff look nicer
  
• Random crows

I guess now that this has been updated again I'm going to do that lil double stair slide for another 2 hours :)

Sorry for the bump but it's been a couple weeks so it's probably fair to assume this update got buried.

Still need feedback on this version to determine if the changes work or not, so I'd really appreciate some games being played on it.
Thanks again, looking forward to your responses.

Bumpety bump (this map deserves feedback :)

Hopefully Console and I can get you some feedback in a bit.

The map's gonna be played in the upcoming ozfortress one night cup, hopefully there's some good feedback from that.

Really think this should have been in the etf2l cup instead of sandstone

I imagine it will be in s26's preseason cup but I agree, especially with all these new changes since s25's preseason cup.

This map was just played in ozfortress's Midsummer Night's Cup 1, and we'll gather feedback for _e1 and collate them so hopefully, Yrr can gain from the evaluation!

Thank you so much to ozfortress, murphy's law means there's yet to be a streamed game on it but your feedback will still be really useful.

(If you can determine if it's the map itself crashing people please do tell me so I can try and fix it!)

B3 - Visual/Optimisation Update
Download: koth_bagel_b3

- Includes map changes from "e1" version
- Various visual improvements
- Better marked capzone (improved cap trigger bounds subtly)
- Simplified long staircase into a ramp and removed a jutting wall
- Lighting improvements on the mid point
- Improved rendering around the map to hopefully raise fps
- Added fade distances to a lot of props
- Crow Improvements

Gameplay changes will come later with feedback from ozfortress's Midsummer Night's Cup and other sources.

Screenshots:

B3A - Quick FPS Fix
Download: koth_bagel_b3a

- Determined crows were source of random fps drops for some people, removed for now

Hello, first of all i love how you did the whole lobby area with the wide chokes!

I have a question :

http://puu.sh/t3Uzx/f74b35f192.jpg

Why is there an invisible wall blocking me from jumping this tank? It's quite confusing as it looks perfectly reacheable for every class.

Thanks :)

That spot used to be a big chunky wall before there was detailing, would probably be a pretty dumb spot if you could actually get up there.
I'll try and make it more obviously off-limits in future.

I need to wait to play the map to be sure but allowing access could be a pretty good position to watch that entrance if forward holding

Played it again.
Pros:
- The actual point is good. The houses on the sides make for a pretty interesting fight.
- Offclasses are in a good state, viable but not too powerful.
Cons:
- Lobby is hard to push thru against a forward hold. Trying to simplify it would be very good.

Overall I think you've done a good job so far and it is almost ready for consideration to be played in leagues.