kirbyDarkNecridkirby just because Engineer has the lowest skill ceiling doesn't mean it takes literally no skill/no strategy like you said previously. There's still an enormous difference between an Engineer capable of playing on a top team and a low div Engineer. Just like every other class you got some top Engineers who are REAL good, even if sometimes it is more subtle why they are better, and then the higher level Engineers who are very good but not the best by just a little bit, and then you got good, mediocre, bad, and awful players on the class. If it took no skill or no strategy then there wouldn't be a wide skill disparity and everyone would be capable of being a Platinum engineer (they definitely aren't).
All low skill ceiling means is if it were possible to flawlessly master a class (it isn't) Engineer would be the first one mastered. Engineer is more difficult than you give it credit for - not that isn't easy in the grand scheme of the game, but it's not THAT easy.
I didn't say it took no skill. (Yes, I realized I said in an earlier post that "it doesn't take any actual skill", but I worded that poorly, which I corrected in the below quote)
I don't see any legitimate reason to believe the class requires any actual skill beyond the first few steps of learning how to play this game.
My point here was that the class, at most, requires little knowledge of how to play it. It comes with the basic package. This involves how the engineer plays with his buildings, not general things such as DM, movement, etc. Every class requires those (on the exception of medic DM, which doesn't 100% matter), but that doesn't mean an engineer who can aim his shotty automatically takes the engineer class and places it on top of the "top skilled classes" list.
Side note: Positioning is different for almost every class. Positioning in this conversation comes with the common sense factor for the engineer. If you know how people play the map, then you're set on where you can put your stuff.
Yes, there is a difference between a low leveled engineer and a high leveled engineer. The reasons bastid gave me for what makes a good engineer is common sense that the high leveled engineer players have. However, the keyword there is "common sense". Have that and you're gold.
It is my opinion that the more "subtle" differences between good engineer players and bad engineer players can usually be applied to almost any class. Then again, these subtle differences you mentioned could be something other than what I'm imagining.
I kind of feel like this discussion went a lot deeper than it really needed to. My entire reason for having this talk was to get the point across that the class doesn't take as much skill as bastid is giving it credit for.
Kirby, pretty much everything in this game is common sense at surface level. You push when you have an advantage, stick together as a team, communicate, watch flanks, and you try not to die for no reason. Knowing what to do is the easy part of this game. Executing it properly is the hard part.
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IMO the engineers skill ceiling is higher than a lot of people think. It's just that people who want to spend hours and hours DMing and mgeing aren't the players that tend to get into playing engie, If there was an engineer in platinum that had the clockwork's aim I would be scared to 1v1 him as a scout. In fact an engineer that good probably shit on people in 6v6 even without using his buildings. What I'm trying to say is that the engineer's skill ceiling is just as high as the scouts when it comes to aim,