well it would have to be accompanied with some decent arguments for the skill imbalance between using pyro and using the generalists (i.e. similar output with very little skill) but you're right that valve might not understand those unless they're very carefully phrased.

I think gatsan has a point - since we keep saying stuff like pyro is aids, having footage of it being run against high level players successfully would be cool. So record that shit, send to valve, explain them why this is shit. Maybe they will fix.

actually IIRC even before the update there's been some pyro running around, I remember ma3la being quite good at it. And pyro is arguably better now. It may not be better than a scout but I would definitely argue that it's at the point where running him is not "throwing"

Although what I'd really be interested in trying is not running pyro instead of scout, but replacing the pocket[*]. If you have a combo of demo/scout/pyro you can easily put 20% heals on that scout because the pyro can protect the rest of the combo from damage while not requiring as many heals as the soldier and also making it really hard to run flank plays or sacs. Although as T0m said a sniper could possibly be a hard counter to this.

[*] actually I've played the better half of a season in open as a pocket pyro but we had two roamers and a flank scout, it was a pretty silly team. With a pocket scout I could see it being so much better

I'd bet a fiver that full time pyro is perfectly viable in top invite atm even if it's just a consequence of how aids the flames are

Demo Man

considering you can get absolutely faceburned with a glitch on the current one, it would be an improvement

welp if you let a sniper walk that far forward without dying I think the whole team is at fault

tbh all you have to do is find a game where a medic ran perma vaccinator and every death is a drop pretty much

There is one thread theorycrafting about lightning guns already, it's fun and all but the pyro update is already done with and I don't think it's legitimate to expect any more conceptual changes to the class.

I still think the current design will be decent once the serious glitches with flame hit detection are fixed. But that's the only thing we can really ask from Valve at this point.

I'll try to suggest something that isn't too hard to implement. Suppose we keep the existing flamethrowers' models etc but they shoot a hitscan beam with a fixed range, similar to Zarya's m1 in Overwatch. Beam can penetrate through players like a machina bullet would. DPS would have to be playtested but I think falloff with distance should still be a thing, so like 150 DPS point blank and 75 max range should be okay.

Airblast: I imagine it'd be better to repurpose pyro as something more offensive so that stuff like uber denial etc wouldn't be so necessary. So basically

• remove ability to push players entirely
  
• can still reflect projectiles, ammo cost is reduced by 50% across the board, but no minicrits
  
• reduced self-damage bonus like the soldier has to assist on reflect jumping

Unlocks: keep the general idea of current stats but adapt them a bit

• degreaser - fast switch speed (can we just get back the 65% instead of having different speeds to switch to and from?); maybe 20% damage penalty along with afterburn penalty. Basically it's the go-to if you like using the secondaries more than the primary.
  
• backburner - uses backstab hitbox but only minicrits instead of full crits from the back (since it's hitscan it would work basically exactly as the back scatter for scout; 2x airblast cost not that big of a penalty)
  
• dragon's fury - same as now but small projectile, maybe half of the current one, and repressurization is reset on a successful reflect so you're rewarded by using m2 correctly instead of spamming
  
• phlog - honestly have no idea. The current design is pretty stupid. But there would be room for different stats such as +25%range/-25%damage or something like that

It's bad on soldier for some specific rocket jumps like ctaps and jumping without crouch but on every other class I enjoy it a lot because I'm an old man with no mechanical ability. Being able to focus on WASD instead of having to extend an extra finger for crouch while you jump is helpful, and I can't think of a single utility for jumping without crouch as classes that aren't soldier. (I guess 45 dmg sticky jump but I've learned to do it by jumping over the sticky so idk)

I'm not exactly a comp player but if people start developing a promod I'd definitely be up for trying and testing it. It's an interesting project and I'd like to see what the community could envision as a more "purist" tf2.

As far as replacing current 6s with it? I'd imagine that being something for way down the line when tf2 is actually dead and the die-hard players of the future want something to gather around without having to deal with some of the BS the game has. But we just had a big update, I'm hoping pyro flames will get fixes soon because we documented the issue and sent emails to valve about that particular absurdity, and there are more updates coming including the matchmaking overhaul.

Idk, I was pretty pessimistic after meet your match, but jungle inferno - with its problems - is still a good update to me, and the tf team's recent attitudes show they are putting the effort with the little resources they are given by Valve.

My thoughts on pyro atm

https://az616578.vo.msecnd.net/files/2016/09/14/6360948027775480071537775930_hgjhgjhfj.jpg

Other specialists are mostly fine, spy is kind of weak but at least he has a defined role in the game

I'd say it's super helpful for any weapon with fast fire rate, such as pistols, SMGs, flamethrowers and miniguns. I've had it at 2 since that command exists

Pyro was always good in pubs because it's a class that shines against scattered players and unwatched flanks. Now they buffed it in a way that enhances those properties even further while not requiring any skill to use, if I feel like turning my brain off I can just get the backburner and jetpack and fly around melting faces and it's not even satisfying because it's just a w+m1 gibus with a jump on cooldown.

I still really think that if they fix hit detection and reduce flame boxsize to the point where it needs an amount of tracking to use it will be mostly fine and I'd personally be happy with it. But I already wrote my feedback email to Valve and I'd suggest you all to do the same.