If Moose says he wasn't hacking, I believe him.
He plays medic in UGC Gold, ffs
He has 18 drops this season, with 3 in the last two weeks he played. If he used wall hacks, he did a great job of hiding it.
If it was Open plugin, we'll find out soon enough, but maybe the anti-Moose circlejerk could hold off until we know what happened for sure.
If Moose says he wasn't hacking, I believe him.
He plays medic in UGC Gold, ffs
He has 18 drops this season, with 3 in the last two weeks he played. If he used wall hacks, he did a great job of hiding it.
If it was Open plugin, we'll find out soon enough, but maybe the anti-Moose circlejerk could hold off until we know what happened for sure.
WillsIf Moose says he wasn't hacking, I believe him.
He plays medic in UGC Gold, ffs
He has 18 drops this season, with 3 in the last two weeks he played. If he used wall hacks, he did a great job of hiding it.
If it was Open plugin, we'll find out soon enough, but maybe the anti-Moose circlejerk could hold off until we know what happened for sure.
just because he didnt hack in scrims/matches doesnt mean he didnt hack
durr
[quote=Wills]If Moose says he wasn't hacking, I believe him.
He plays medic in UGC Gold, ffs
He has 18 drops this season, with 3 in the last two weeks he played. If he used wall hacks, he did a great job of hiding it.
If it was Open plugin, we'll find out soon enough, but maybe the anti-Moose circlejerk could hold off until we know what happened for sure.[/quote]
just because he didnt hack in scrims/matches doesnt mean he didnt hack
durr
Me and nearly everyone else in div 1/2 used openplugin last season
plenty of people in prem use it too
I really doubt they ban for it
Me and nearly everyone else in div 1/2 used openplugin last season
plenty of people in prem use it too
I really doubt they ban for it
downpourjust because he didnt hack in scrims/matches doesnt mean he didnt hack
durr
And ofc this gets upfragged while mine is destroyed, lol
It would be very strange for Moose to waste his time "hacking" in pubs; he's a respected member of the TF2 community (outside of this group hug-and-tug) and probably is aware of how VAC bans work. If he was going to hack, why do so in a meaningless environment?
[quote=downpour]
just because he didnt hack in scrims/matches doesnt mean he didnt hack
durr[/quote]
And ofc this gets upfragged while mine is destroyed, lol
It would be very strange for Moose to waste his time "hacking" in pubs; he's a respected member of the TF2 community (outside of this group hug-and-tug) and probably is aware of how VAC bans work. If he was going to hack, why do so in a meaningless environment?
Willsdownpourjust because he didnt hack in scrims/matches doesnt mean he didnt hack
durr
And ofc this gets upfragged while mine is destroyed, lol
It would be very strange for Moose to waste his time "hacking" in pubs; he's a respected member of the TF2 community (outside of this group hug-and-tug) and probably is aware of how VAC bans work. If he was going to hack, why do so in a meaningless environment?
Why would he do it in a meaningful environment instead of a meaningless environment?
[quote=Wills][quote=downpour]
just because he didnt hack in scrims/matches doesnt mean he didnt hack
durr[/quote]
And ofc this gets upfragged while mine is destroyed, lol
It would be very strange for Moose to waste his time "hacking" in pubs; he's a respected member of the TF2 community (outside of this group hug-and-tug) and probably is aware of how VAC bans work. If he was going to hack, why do so in a meaningless environment?[/quote]
Why would he do it in a meaningful environment instead of a meaningless environment?
redban
Why would he do it in a meaningful environment instead of a meaningless environment?
Well the point of hacking is to win, unless you're a troll who just wants to flame some pubs.
Moose isn't a troll, so if he were to hack, I'd imagine he'd do it in a match.
That said, Moose really doesn't seem like the type to hack just for a win; The Regime was run legit, and though his team (and he himself) might not be doing as well as he'd like, I just seriously doubt he'd go to the lengths of hacking just to do better.
[quote=redban]
Why would he do it in a meaningful environment instead of a meaningless environment?[/quote]
Well the point of hacking is to win, unless you're a troll who just wants to flame some pubs.
Moose isn't a troll, so if he were to hack, I'd imagine he'd do it in a match.
That said, Moose really doesn't seem like the type to hack just for a win; The Regime was run legit, and though his team (and he himself) might not be doing as well as he'd like, I just seriously doubt he'd go to the lengths of hacking just to do better.
Willsredban
Why would he do it in a meaningful environment instead of a meaningless environment?
Well the point of hacking is to win, unless you're a troll who just wants to flame some pubs.
Moose isn't a troll, so if he were to hack, I'd imagine he'd do it in a match.
That said, Moose really doesn't seem like the type to hack just for a win; The Regime was run legit, and though his team (and he himself) might not be doing as well as he'd like, I just seriously doubt he'd go to the lengths of hacking just to do better.
you only have to try a hack once to get vac'd for it
im literally saying he probably tried one in a pub or a pug or SOMETHING once and it resulted in the ban
[quote=Wills][quote=redban]
Why would he do it in a meaningful environment instead of a meaningless environment?[/quote]
Well the point of hacking is to win, unless you're a troll who just wants to flame some pubs.
Moose isn't a troll, so if he were to hack, I'd imagine he'd do it in a match.
That said, Moose really doesn't seem like the type to hack just for a win; The Regime was run legit, and though his team (and he himself) might not be doing as well as he'd like, I just seriously doubt he'd go to the lengths of hacking just to do better.[/quote]
you only have to try a hack once to get vac'd for it
im literally saying he probably tried one in a pub or a pug or SOMETHING once and it resulted in the ban
wills...don't be so narrow minded. people don't only hack in matches. sometimes they do it just for fun or because they're curious. there's plenty of people who have done it in pugs or lobbies, and i'm sure that people have tried using it in pubs.
http://natf2.com/topics/3121-beat-hackusation-thread
this is a classic one. a guy who people thought was nice hacked in pug.na and was caught.
wills...don't be so narrow minded. people don't only hack in matches. sometimes they do it just for fun or because they're curious. there's plenty of people who have done it in pugs or lobbies, and i'm sure that people have tried using it in pubs.
http://natf2.com/topics/3121-beat-hackusation-thread
this is a classic one. a guy who people thought was nice hacked in pug.na and was caught.
it always starts small, then gets worse over time
it always starts small, then gets worse over time
i made a thread in the League Suggestions section of the UGC forum suggesting that UGC admins avoid using hacks but it got deleted for some reason ???
i made a thread in the League Suggestions section of the UGC forum suggesting that UGC admins avoid using hacks but it got deleted for some reason ???
that's ugc forums for you
lol
that's ugc forums for you
lol
Cro0Ked_funny in the right context
Said no-one ever
[quote=Cro0Ked_]funny in the right context[/quote]
Said no-one ever
MR_SLINwills...don't be so narrow minded. people don't only hack in matches. sometimes they do it just for fun or because they're curious. there's plenty of people who have done it in pugs or lobbies, and i'm sure that people have tried using it in pubs.
http://natf2.com/topics/3121-beat-hackusation-thread
this is a classic one. a guy who people thought was nice hacked in pug.na and was caught.
http://kotaku.com/5919160/one-shot-one-kill-no-skill-why-a-regular-gamer-started-paying-to-cheat-at-video-games
[quote=MR_SLIN]wills...don't be so narrow minded. people don't only hack in matches. sometimes they do it just for fun or because they're curious. there's plenty of people who have done it in pugs or lobbies, and i'm sure that people have tried using it in pubs.
http://natf2.com/topics/3121-beat-hackusation-thread
this is a classic one. a guy who people thought was nice hacked in pug.na and was caught.[/quote]
http://kotaku.com/5919160/one-shot-one-kill-no-skill-why-a-regular-gamer-started-paying-to-cheat-at-video-games
Saberthat is the greatest looking post i've ever seen holy shit
20-0'd rando
while drunk
he was truly tlr
12 SHOTS DEEP
[quote=Saber]that is the greatest looking post i've ever seen holy shit
20-0'd rando
while drunk
he was truly tlr[/quote]
[b]12 SHOTS DEEP[/b]
MR_SLINwills...don't be so narrow minded. people don't only hack in matches. sometimes they do it just for fun or because they're curious. there's plenty of people who have done it in pugs or lobbies, and i'm sure that people have tried using it in pubs.
http://natf2.com/topics/3121-beat-hackusation-thread
this is a classic one. a guy who people thought was nice hacked in pug.na and was caught.
I just feel it would be very strange for someone as high Profile as Moose to start hacking in a server. Not even on an alt or anything? Doesn't really make sense for such a senior UGC admin.
But hey, I'll get -fragged no matter what I say, haha, so I might as well drop it
[quote=MR_SLIN]wills...don't be so narrow minded. people don't only hack in matches. sometimes they do it just for fun or because they're curious. there's plenty of people who have done it in pugs or lobbies, and i'm sure that people have tried using it in pubs.
http://natf2.com/topics/3121-beat-hackusation-thread
this is a classic one. a guy who people thought was nice hacked in pug.na and was caught.[/quote]
I just feel it would be very strange for someone as high Profile as Moose to start hacking in a server. Not even on an alt or anything? Doesn't really make sense for such a senior UGC admin.
But hey, I'll get -fragged no matter what I say, haha, so I might as well drop it
WillsMR_SLINwills...don't be so narrow minded. people don't only hack in matches. sometimes they do it just for fun or because they're curious. there's plenty of people who have done it in pugs or lobbies, and i'm sure that people have tried using it in pubs.
http://natf2.com/topics/3121-beat-hackusation-thread
this is a classic one. a guy who people thought was nice hacked in pug.na and was caught.
I just feel it would be very strange for someone as high Profile as Moose to start hacking in a server. Not even on an alt or anything? Doesn't really make sense for such a senior UGC admin.
But hey, I'll get -fragged no matter what I say, haha, so I might as well drop it
people arent minus fragging you because youre saying it or because youre defending moose or because of some "circle jerk", its because you arent actually bringing up valid points. youre saying because of his personality and because of his position he likely didnt hack. presidents and prime ministers have done crazy things too despite being in MUCH MUCH more important positions than moose.
[quote=Wills][quote=MR_SLIN]wills...don't be so narrow minded. people don't only hack in matches. sometimes they do it just for fun or because they're curious. there's plenty of people who have done it in pugs or lobbies, and i'm sure that people have tried using it in pubs.
http://natf2.com/topics/3121-beat-hackusation-thread
this is a classic one. a guy who people thought was nice hacked in pug.na and was caught.[/quote]
I just feel it would be very strange for someone as high Profile as Moose to start hacking in a server. Not even on an alt or anything? Doesn't really make sense for such a senior UGC admin.
But hey, I'll get -fragged no matter what I say, haha, so I might as well drop it[/quote]
people arent minus fragging you because youre saying it or because youre defending moose or because of some "circle jerk", its because you arent actually bringing up valid points. youre saying because of his personality and because of his position he likely didnt hack. presidents and prime ministers have done crazy things too despite being in MUCH MUCH more important positions than moose.
downpourWillsMR_SLINwills...don't be so narrow minded. people don't only hack in matches. sometimes they do it just for fun or because they're curious. there's plenty of people who have done it in pugs or lobbies, and i'm sure that people have tried using it in pubs.
http://natf2.com/topics/3121-beat-hackusation-thread
this is a classic one. a guy who people thought was nice hacked in pug.na and was caught.
I just feel it would be very strange for someone as high Profile as Moose to start hacking in a server. Not even on an alt or anything? Doesn't really make sense for such a senior UGC admin.
But hey, I'll get -fragged no matter what I say, haha, so I might as well drop it
people arent minus fragging you because youre saying it or because youre defending moose or because of some "circle jerk", its because you arent actually bringing up valid points. youre saying because of his personality and because of his position he likely didnt hack. presidents and prime ministers have done crazy things too despite being in MUCH MUCH more important positions than moose.
http://i.imgur.com/lBKUjS8.jpg
[quote=downpour][quote=Wills][quote=MR_SLIN]wills...don't be so narrow minded. people don't only hack in matches. sometimes they do it just for fun or because they're curious. there's plenty of people who have done it in pugs or lobbies, and i'm sure that people have tried using it in pubs.
http://natf2.com/topics/3121-beat-hackusation-thread
this is a classic one. a guy who people thought was nice hacked in pug.na and was caught.[/quote]
I just feel it would be very strange for someone as high Profile as Moose to start hacking in a server. Not even on an alt or anything? Doesn't really make sense for such a senior UGC admin.
But hey, I'll get -fragged no matter what I say, haha, so I might as well drop it[/quote]
people arent minus fragging you because youre saying it or because youre defending moose or because of some "circle jerk", its because you arent actually bringing up valid points. youre saying because of his personality and because of his position he likely didnt hack. presidents and prime ministers have done crazy things too despite being in MUCH MUCH more important positions than moose.[/quote]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/lBKUjS8.jpg[/img]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qXFicy7H5Y[/youtube]
Wills, why do you trust the guy because he's a Senior UGC admin? You know, infinite is a Senior UGC admin.
Wills, why do you trust the guy because he's a Senior UGC admin? You know, [b]infinite is a Senior UGC admin.[/b]
Willsredban
Why would he do it in a meaningful environment instead of a meaningless environment?
Well the point of hacking is to win, unless you're a troll who just wants to flame some pubs.
Moose isn't a troll, so if he were to hack, I'd imagine he'd do it in a match.
That said, Moose really doesn't seem like the type to hack just for a win; The Regime was run legit, and though his team (and he himself) might not be doing as well as he'd like, I just seriously doubt he'd go to the lengths of hacking just to do better.
i'm sure some people like the thrill of hiding the hack, knowing that their reputation could get ruined if they screw up (if they enjoy playing on a specific server, community, league, ect).
[quote=Wills][quote=redban]
Why would he do it in a meaningful environment instead of a meaningless environment?[/quote]
Well the point of hacking is to win, unless you're a troll who just wants to flame some pubs.
Moose isn't a troll, so if he were to hack, I'd imagine he'd do it in a match.
That said, Moose really doesn't seem like the type to hack just for a win; The Regime was run legit, and though his team (and he himself) might not be doing as well as he'd like, I just seriously doubt he'd go to the lengths of hacking just to do better.[/quote]
i'm sure some people like the thrill of hiding the hack, knowing that their reputation could get ruined if they screw up (if they enjoy playing on a specific server, community, league, ect).
As Moose's pyro this season, I guarantee you he wasn't wallhacking in any matches or scrims...
As Moose's pyro this season, I guarantee you he wasn't wallhacking in any matches or scrims...
yumOJAs Moose's pyro this season, I guarantee you he wasn't wallhacking in any matches or scrims...
OHHHHHH I GET THE JOKE is this an oblique reference to when he dropped to a backburner pyro at steel A
[quote=yumOJ]As Moose's pyro this season, I guarantee you he wasn't wallhacking in any matches or scrims...[/quote]
OHHHHHH I GET THE JOKE is this an oblique reference to when he dropped to a backburner pyro at steel A
downpourpeople arent minus fragging you because youre saying it or because youre defending moose or because of some "circle jerk", its because you arent actually bringing up valid points. youre saying because of his personality and because of his position he likely didnt hack. presidents and prime ministers have done crazy things too despite being in MUCH MUCH more important positions than moose.
I'm more focused on the personality aspect, and the fact that I actually trust him.
All I'm saying is he *might* be innocent, which apparently isn't cool to bring up.
Infinite is very different than Moose as I'm sure you ALL are aware :P
I'm just saying that it's hard to argue that frags are directly tied to "Valid points" when this gets -20
WillsIf it was Open plugin, we'll find out soon enough, but maybe the anti-Moose circlejerk could hold off until we know what happened for sure.
and this gets +12
downpourjust because he didnt hack in scrims/matches doesnt mean he didnt hack
durr
lol
[quote=downpour]
people arent minus fragging you because youre saying it or because youre defending moose or because of some "circle jerk", its because you arent actually bringing up valid points. youre saying because of his personality and because of his position he likely didnt hack. presidents and prime ministers have done crazy things too despite being in MUCH MUCH more important positions than moose.[/quote]
I'm more focused on the personality aspect, and the fact that I actually trust him.
All I'm saying is he *might* be innocent, which apparently isn't cool to bring up.
Infinite is very different than Moose as I'm sure you ALL are aware :P
I'm just saying that it's hard to argue that frags are directly tied to "Valid points" when this gets -20
[quote=Wills]
If it was Open plugin, we'll find out soon enough, but maybe the anti-Moose circlejerk could hold off until we know what happened for sure.[/quote]
and this gets +12 [quote=downpour]
just because he didnt hack in scrims/matches doesnt mean he didnt hack
durr[/quote]
lol
why are you so worried about your +/-?? it doesnt mean anything. look past the points and the wording and look at the actual content.
Clearly he was vac banned for some reason. Plenty of nice people who others have trusted have broken rules in the real world and in the TF2 community so its not like this is unprecedented. Generally, people who lie/steal/cheat don't admit to it.
It's also clear that the ban wasn't because of the open plugin. The plugin is used by TONS of people and is even broadly showcased on some popular EU streams.
why are you so worried about your +/-?? it doesnt mean anything. look past the points and the wording and look at the actual content.
Clearly he was vac banned for some reason. Plenty of nice people who others have trusted have broken rules in the real world and in the TF2 community so its not like this is unprecedented. Generally, people who lie/steal/cheat don't admit to it.
It's also clear that the ban wasn't because of the open plugin. The plugin is used by TONS of people and is even broadly showcased on some popular EU streams.
This Wills guy is really stupid and persistent
This Wills guy is really stupid and persistent
I just heard about this yesterday, and I don't know what to think. I knew Moose pretty well while he was doing stuff with eXtv and he seemed like a decent dude. I think he took the game too seriously. Maybe he got overwhelmed and wanted to step away. I looked at his backpack yesterday and it shows the signs of a pretty typical hack/grab/vac. Only untradeable/uncraftable stuff is left. I have 2 theories... 1.) Moose clicked some stupid link on Steam, got his shit hacked, all his stuff stolen, and was too proud to admit it so he made up the thing about whatever plugin. Whatever. Trying to save pride or just maybe not even knowing he got hacked. or 2.) he was fed up with the game, burned out, wanted to quit, but wanted some attention first... moved all his shit to another account, downloaded a hack and got himself VAC'd to start a little bit of intrigue about his leaving.
I've dealt with some fucked up people on the internet whilst playing TF2, but Moose doesn't seem like the type of dude to pull some fucked up shit like that... but then again a lot of the people who pulled fucked up shit never seemed like they would either, guess that's kind of the point.
Regardless, I think we just need to let it go a move on. Shit happens, it's a game, people are weird, etc. If a bunch of other players from ETF2L suddenly start getting the ban hammer, then there's something to talk about... otherwise it's an isolated incident that had little or no bearing on any matches or anyone else in the leagues so let's just move on.
I just heard about this yesterday, and I don't know what to think. I knew Moose pretty well while he was doing stuff with eXtv and he seemed like a decent dude. I think he took the game too seriously. Maybe he got overwhelmed and wanted to step away. I looked at his backpack yesterday and it shows the signs of a pretty typical hack/grab/vac. Only untradeable/uncraftable stuff is left. I have 2 theories... 1.) Moose clicked some stupid link on Steam, got his shit hacked, all his stuff stolen, and was too proud to admit it so he made up the thing about whatever plugin. Whatever. Trying to save pride or just maybe not even knowing he got hacked. or 2.) he was fed up with the game, burned out, wanted to quit, but wanted some attention first... moved all his shit to another account, downloaded a hack and got himself VAC'd to start a little bit of intrigue about his leaving.
I've dealt with some fucked up people on the internet whilst playing TF2, but Moose doesn't seem like the type of dude to pull some fucked up shit like that... but then again a lot of the people who pulled fucked up shit never seemed like they would either, guess that's kind of the point.
Regardless, I think we just need to let it go a move on. Shit happens, it's a game, people are weird, etc. If a bunch of other players from ETF2L suddenly start getting the ban hammer, then there's something to talk about... otherwise it's an isolated incident that had little or no bearing on any matches or anyone else in the leagues so let's just move on.
duderI have 2 theories... 1.) Moose clicked some stupid link on Steam, got his shit hacked, all his stuff stolen, and was too proud to admit it so he made up the thing about whatever plugin. Whatever. Trying to save pride or just maybe not even knowing he got hacked. or 2.) he was fed up with the game, burned out, wanted to quit, but wanted some attention first... moved all his shit to another account, downloaded a hack and got himself VAC'd to start a little bit of intrigue about his leaving.
Valve deletes all tf2 items, which weren't bought in the shop, from VAC'd accounts.
If you could still move all of your items to a new and pretty much free (f2p + a few cent for premium) a VAC ban would be kinda pointless.
Oh, just to clarify this: If the VAC team adds a new cheat signature everyone using this cheat gets banned. So unless all OpenPlugin users get VAC'd in the next weeks, it wasn't the OpenPlugin that everyone else uses that got him banned.
And of course Valve thinks manually banning ONE random UGC admin (who used OpenPLugin once) without telling why will make everyone stop using OpenPlugin.
inb4 -frags
[quote=duder]I have 2 theories... 1.) Moose clicked some stupid link on Steam, got his shit hacked, all his stuff stolen, and was too proud to admit it so he made up the thing about whatever plugin. Whatever. Trying to save pride or just maybe not even knowing he got hacked. or 2.) he was fed up with the game, burned out, wanted to quit, but wanted some attention first... moved all his shit to another account, downloaded a hack and got himself VAC'd to start a little bit of intrigue about his leaving.[/quote]
Valve deletes all tf2 items, which weren't bought in the shop, from VAC'd accounts.
If you could still move all of your items to a new and pretty much free (f2p + a few cent for premium) a VAC ban would be kinda pointless.
Oh, just to clarify this: If the VAC team adds a new cheat signature everyone using this cheat gets banned. So unless all OpenPlugin users get VAC'd in the next weeks, it wasn't the OpenPlugin that everyone else uses that got him banned.
And of course Valve thinks manually banning ONE random UGC admin (who used OpenPLugin once) without telling why will make everyone stop using OpenPlugin.
inb4 -frags
alec_This Wills guy is really stupid and persistent
Haha I guess you're right :P
I suppose I just don't like the bullying atmosphere, or the glee that clearly stems from seeing misfortune fall upon someone else.
And I *really* don't like the "Guilty until proven innocent" vibe floating around.
But I'd rather have you guys shit on me rather than Moose anyway, so it's fine XD
[quote=alec_]This Wills guy is really stupid and persistent[/quote]
Haha I guess you're right :P
I suppose I just don't like the bullying atmosphere, or the glee that clearly stems from seeing misfortune fall upon someone else.
And I *really* don't like the "Guilty until proven innocent" vibe floating around.
But I'd rather have you guys shit on me rather than Moose anyway, so it's fine XD
SetsulValve deletes all tf2 items, which weren't bought in the shop, from VAC'd accounts.
If you could still move all of your items to a new and pretty much free (f2p + a few cent for premium) a VAC ban would be kinda pointless.
Right, but if you know you are going to get VAC'd ahead of time, you can trade the items away, then cheat, then not lose your items cause they are on a different account.
[quote=Setsul]
Valve deletes all tf2 items, which weren't bought in the shop, from VAC'd accounts.
If you could still move all of your items to a new and pretty much free (f2p + a few cent for premium) a VAC ban would be kinda pointless.
[/quote]
Right, but if you know you are going to get VAC'd ahead of time, you can trade the items away, then cheat, then not lose your items cause they are on a different account.
DarkNecridSetsulValve deletes all tf2 items, which weren't bought in the shop, from VAC'd accounts.
If you could still move all of your items to a new and pretty much free (f2p + a few cent for premium) a VAC ban would be kinda pointless.
Right, but if you know you are going to get VAC'd ahead of time, you can trade the items away, then cheat, then not lose your items cause they are on a different account.
Yes and he did not trade any of his items before the ban. So he either doesn't care about items or didn't want to get banned.
Assuming no one else gets banned for using OpenPlugin there are two options left:
1.a VAC false-positive
2.moose used something that VAC considers a cheat.
So let's wait and see, if there are more bans, neither OpenPlugin nor a VAC getting false-positives would only get one person banned.
[quote=DarkNecrid][quote=Setsul]
Valve deletes all tf2 items, which weren't bought in the shop, from VAC'd accounts.
If you could still move all of your items to a new and pretty much free (f2p + a few cent for premium) a VAC ban would be kinda pointless.
[/quote]
Right, but if you know you are going to get VAC'd ahead of time, you can trade the items away, then cheat, then not lose your items cause they are on a different account.[/quote]
Yes and he did not trade any of his items before the ban. So he either doesn't care about items or didn't want to get banned.
Assuming no one else gets banned for using OpenPlugin there are two options left:
1.a VAC false-positive
2.moose used something that VAC considers a cheat.
So let's wait and see, if there are more bans, neither OpenPlugin nor a VAC getting false-positives would only get one person banned.