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Is it possible to innovate the HL meta?
31
#31
0 Frags +
juraculeAlso if anything it's easier to land a bodyshot with the amby than the revolver due to its smaller spread (at all times) than the revolver.

Nope.avi

During the "cooling down" stage, the amby's spread is absolutely atrocious. If you're gonna be a body shot hero you need to run revolver.

[quote=juracule]
Also if anything it's easier to land a bodyshot with the amby than the revolver due to its smaller spread (at all times) than the revolver. [/quote]
Nope.avi

During the "cooling down" stage, the amby's spread is absolutely atrocious. If you're gonna be a body shot hero you need to run revolver.
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#32
2 Frags +

--

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33
#33
1 Frags +

http://i.imgur.com/YAKF1Yi.png

pink is firing amby as fast as you can and assuming you hit a headshot on the first 100% accurate shot of each clip, yellow is hitting only bodyshots

edit: nvm spread shown above, also this assumes base damage range

edit2: fixed chart a bit realized i did not have linear time scale and got rid of lines implying slowly varying damage. the health lines are for shits an giggles and show the threshold you need to cross to frag a sniper or a demo if they started with a buff and you manfight them while they have heals on them the entire time

http://i.imgur.com/YAKF1Yi.png

pink is firing amby as fast as you can and assuming you hit a headshot on the first 100% accurate shot of each clip, yellow is hitting only bodyshots

edit: nvm spread shown above, also this assumes base damage range

edit2: fixed chart a bit realized i did not have linear time scale and got rid of lines implying slowly varying damage. the health lines are for shits an giggles and show the threshold you need to cross to frag a sniper or a demo if they started with a buff and you manfight them while they have heals on them the entire time
34
#34
3 Frags +

HIGHLANDER

[b]HIGHLANDER[/b]
35
#35
1 Frags +

i question that the spread of the amby is tighter than the revolver...the actual experience using it seems to differ with those decals greatly.

i question that the spread of the amby is tighter than the revolver...the actual experience using it seems to differ with those decals greatly.
36
#36
1 Frags +

go test it and take a screenshot then

go test it and take a screenshot then
37
#37
0 Frags +

ukm's chart shows that the ambi is more consistent when hitting the shots. And the spread shows that Ambi has a better distribution, but i do have one question: are those shot successively, no pause between, just holding down M1?

Edit: Also, while the spy talk is interesting and relevant, it is divergent. What about other classes?

ukm's chart shows that the ambi is more consistent when hitting the shots. And the spread shows that Ambi has a better distribution, but i do have one question: are those shot successively, no pause between, just holding down M1?

Edit: Also, while the spy talk is interesting and relevant, it is divergent. What about other classes?
38
#38
-2 Frags +

I think Engineer is a really interesting class in the current meta. Total jack-of-all-trades!

Just some playstyles off the top of my head that I've seen run at every level:

1. Mini-spamming (annoying for sure, but undeniably effective), shotgun shooting flank 1v1 expert.

2. Sneaky, sentry jumping engie that aims to get behind the team and create either openings for bombers/pick classes, or act as a pick class himself.

3. Similar to before, but with bigger buildings. Go into sewers on process, get an entire setup in there with a pyro backing you up, and your team now has a pseudo-forward spawn.

4. Turtlengineer. Boring, but wrangler is hotly contested for a reason.

I could think of more but it's late and I am tired. (and I suck at engie)

I think Engineer is a really interesting class in the current meta. Total jack-of-all-trades!

Just some playstyles off the top of my head that I've seen run at every level:

1. Mini-spamming (annoying for sure, but undeniably effective), shotgun shooting flank 1v1 expert.

2. Sneaky, sentry jumping engie that aims to get behind the team and create either openings for bombers/pick classes, or act as a pick class himself.

3. Similar to before, but with bigger buildings. Go into sewers on process, get an entire setup in there with a pyro backing you up, and your team now has a pseudo-forward spawn.

4. Turtlengineer. Boring, but wrangler is hotly contested for a reason.


I could think of more but it's late and I am tired. (and I suck at engie)
39
#39
0 Frags +

This is a question for more experienced HL players:

When i played HL on low level teams, it seemed like so much depended on the demo for pushing. There are just so many bodies and so much hp around that my team NEEDED to have a demo present to have any sort of successful push, despite whatever kinds of picks we got (save for something like a medic pick). However, on defense, a heavy/engie/demo/whatever pick doesnt necessarily mean a lost hold.

So my question is, does this hold true for higher level teams? If so, how do you deal with it?

Do you see this as a problem in HL gameplay, or do you think its an okay metagame dynamic?

This is a question for more experienced HL players:

When i played HL on low level teams, it seemed like so much depended on the demo for pushing. There are just so many bodies and so much hp around that my team NEEDED to have a demo present to have any sort of successful push, despite whatever kinds of picks we got (save for something like a medic pick). However, on defense, a heavy/engie/demo/whatever pick doesnt necessarily mean a lost hold.

So my question is, does this hold true for higher level teams? If so, how do you deal with it?

Do you see this as a problem in HL gameplay, or do you think its an okay metagame dynamic?
40
#40
2 Frags +

I think that pocket Soldiers with Buff Banner or Backup are really underutilized, although some teams do it every now and then. Having headshot immunity and damage resistance seems really cool for milking Uber as a Medic and minicrits on your whole team is pretty great too. According to atomsk's video about it, you pocket your Soldier while your Heavy sits around and guards you and the rest of your team roams, and when you have both charges, push in with everyone. But maybe I just made that up.

PoisoCaineI think Engineer is a really interesting class in the current meta. Total jack-of-all-trades!

Just some playstyles off the top of my head that I've seen run at every level:

1. Mini-spamming (annoying for sure, but undeniably effective), shotgun shooting flank 1v1 expert.

2. Sneaky, sentry jumping engie that aims to get behind the team and create either openings for bombers/pick classes, or act as a pick class himself.

3. Similar to before, but with bigger buildings. Go into sewers on process, get an entire setup in there with a pyro backing you up, and your team now has a pseudo-forward spawn.

4. Turtlengineer. Boring, but wrangler is hotly contested for a reason.

I could think of more but it's late and I am tired. (and I suck at engie)

5. bombing suicidal pick engineer with fj crits (confirmed allowed in ugc)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fff_Zt4AUxs

I think that pocket Soldiers with Buff Banner or Backup are really underutilized, although some teams do it every now and then. Having headshot immunity and damage resistance seems really cool for milking Uber as a Medic and minicrits on your whole team is pretty great too. According to atomsk's video about it, you pocket your Soldier while your Heavy sits around and guards you and the rest of your team roams, and when you have both charges, push in with everyone. But maybe I just made that up.

[quote=PoisoCaine]I think Engineer is a really interesting class in the current meta. Total jack-of-all-trades!

Just some playstyles off the top of my head that I've seen run at every level:

1. Mini-spamming (annoying for sure, but undeniably effective), shotgun shooting flank 1v1 expert.

2. Sneaky, sentry jumping engie that aims to get behind the team and create either openings for bombers/pick classes, or act as a pick class himself.

3. Similar to before, but with bigger buildings. Go into sewers on process, get an entire setup in there with a pyro backing you up, and your team now has a pseudo-forward spawn.

4. Turtlengineer. Boring, but wrangler is hotly contested for a reason.


I could think of more but it's late and I am tired. (and I suck at engie)[/quote]

5. bombing suicidal pick engineer with fj crits (confirmed allowed in ugc)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fff_Zt4AUxs
41
#41
0 Frags +

i didnt actually read any of the replies but mobility is a huge thing in 5cp, so thats why pyro/heavy arnt used, if you use a sniper/spy the other team can just push in on a dm advantage

i didnt actually read any of the replies but mobility is a huge thing in 5cp, so thats why pyro/heavy arnt used, if you use a sniper/spy the other team can just push in on a dm advantage
42
#42
5 Frags +

Yeah the shift that really needs to happen is for scouts (and possibly soldier if you want to) to be uber aggressive with their demoman on 5cp. Heavy too slow. Teams have and are starting to do this, but I don't think it's really been solidified yet that that's where the HL meta needs to evolve to. Classes like heavy and pyro are really only good for cleanup kills at the higher levels anyways because of their range and mobility limitations.

Also to address the necessity of a demoman for pushing, it's pretty much the same in 6v6. If you don't have a demo and the other team does it's very difficult to push unless you really have some other strong advantage. That's just how TF2 is because demo is such a good class.

Yeah the shift that really needs to happen is for scouts (and possibly soldier if you want to) to be uber aggressive with their demoman on 5cp. Heavy too slow. Teams have and are starting to do this, but I don't think it's really been solidified yet that that's where the HL meta needs to evolve to. Classes like heavy and pyro are really only good for cleanup kills at the higher levels anyways because of their range and mobility limitations.

Also to address the necessity of a demoman for pushing, it's pretty much the same in 6v6. If you don't have a demo and the other team does it's very difficult to push unless you really have some other strong advantage. That's just how TF2 is because demo is such a good class.
43
#43
-2 Frags +

Well I think the difference i want to point out is that if both teams drop the demo in 6s, you can still push in with both soldiers, or a soldier + scout. In HL, a demo drop on offense is felt a lot more than just being down a player.

Well I think the difference i want to point out is that if both teams drop the demo in 6s, you can still push in with both soldiers, or a soldier + scout. In HL, a demo drop on offense is felt a lot more than just being down a player.
44
#44
1 Frags +
RadmanWell I think the difference i want to point out is that if both teams drop the demo in 6s, you can still push in with both soldiers, or a soldier + scout. In HL, a demo drop on offense is felt a lot more than just being down a player.

Sixes tends to rely on aggressive defenses that keep the standard power class setup, so a 2 soldier/2 scout setup can still take on soldiers and scouts. You only really see mainly defensive classes like engies and snipers on Granary, for example. Highlander can rely on more turtled defenses since you have to have an engie and sniper, so the aggression and DPS of a demo is much more important.

I have to agree, though; I'd like to see if someone could beat the Highlander meta and figure out a way to do a demoless off-uber push...

[quote=Radman]Well I think the difference i want to point out is that if both teams drop the demo in 6s, you can still push in with both soldiers, or a soldier + scout. In HL, a demo drop on offense is felt a lot more than just being down a player.[/quote]

Sixes tends to rely on aggressive defenses that keep the standard power class setup, so a 2 soldier/2 scout setup can still take on soldiers and scouts. You only really see mainly defensive classes like engies and snipers on Granary, for example. Highlander can rely on more turtled defenses since you have to have an engie and sniper, so the aggression and DPS of a demo is much more important.

I have to agree, though; I'd like to see if someone could beat the Highlander meta and figure out a way to do a demoless off-uber push...
45
#45
1 Frags +
Radmandoes this hold true for higher level teams?

No, when I die with bpm, if I am confident that I put out enough damage/got enough picks/need to use our uber advantage/got the right picks(med / demo / heavy / sniper each of these have a clear role in a fight. Med goes down, play it slow with your heals, sniper goes down, play aggressive with your pick classes and try to fight a spam war, etc), I will call the push. The heals I normally get will be moved to the engy or scout. On a lower team, this probably would not work because let's face it. It's pretty hard to miss as demo and when your hitscan classes are all missing a third to the majority of their shots, they won't be able to cleanup and they'll just die. Again, it's a call based on trust and judgement of the situation. However, if you want to play safe you should wait for the demo's spawn or only push when you have significant advantages.

tldr: If your teams dm is good, you can probably just out dm the other team based off of having more health or having more players. If they decide not to fight, congrats you just bullied another team out of a point. (most of this only applies to the 5cp maps, demo is pretty much needed to take down a sentry + force uber on PL)

[quote=Radman]
does this hold true for higher level teams?
[/quote]
No, when I die with bpm, if I am confident that I put out enough damage/got enough picks/need to use our uber advantage/got the right picks(med / demo / heavy / sniper each of these have a clear role in a fight. Med goes down, play it slow with your heals, sniper goes down, play aggressive with your pick classes and try to fight a spam war, etc), I will call the push. The heals I normally get will be moved to the engy or scout. On a lower team, this probably would not work because let's face it. It's pretty hard to miss as demo and when your hitscan classes are all missing a third to the majority of their shots, they won't be able to cleanup and they'll just die. Again, it's a call based on trust and judgement of the situation. However, if you want to play safe you should wait for the demo's spawn or only push when you have significant advantages.

tldr: If your teams dm is good, you can probably just out dm the other team based off of having more health or having more players. If they decide not to fight, congrats you just bullied another team out of a point. (most of this only applies to the 5cp maps, demo is pretty much needed to take down a sentry + force uber on PL)
46
#46
1 Frags +
KapowwNo, when I die with bpm, if I am confident that I put out enough damage/got enough picks/need to use our uber advantage/got the right picks(med / demo / heavy / sniper each of these have a clear role in a fight. Med goes down, play it slow with your heals, sniper goes down, play aggressive with your pick classes and try to fight a spam war, etc), I will call the push. The heals I normally get will be moved to the engy or scout. On a lower team, this probably would not work because let's face it. It's pretty hard to miss as demo and when your hitscan classes are all missing a third to the majority of their shots, they won't be able to cleanup and they'll just die. Again, it's a call based on trust and judgement of the situation. However, if you want to play safe you should wait for the demo's spawn or only push when you have significant advantages.

tldr: If your teams dm is good, you can probably just out dm the other team based off of having more health or having more players. If they decide not to fight, congrats you just bullied another team out of a point. (most of this only applies to the 5cp maps, demo is pretty much needed to take down a sentry + force uber on PL)

AKA playing like stupid +forwarding idiots right?

[quote=Kapoww]
No, when I die with bpm, if I am confident that I put out enough damage/got enough picks/need to use our uber advantage/got the right picks(med / demo / heavy / sniper each of these have a clear role in a fight. Med goes down, play it slow with your heals, sniper goes down, play aggressive with your pick classes and try to fight a spam war, etc), I will call the push. The heals I normally get will be moved to the engy or scout. On a lower team, this probably would not work because let's face it. It's pretty hard to miss as demo and when your hitscan classes are all missing a third to the majority of their shots, they won't be able to cleanup and they'll just die. Again, it's a call based on trust and judgement of the situation. However, if you want to play safe you should wait for the demo's spawn or only push when you have significant advantages.

tldr: If your teams dm is good, you can probably just out dm the other team based off of having more health or having more players. If they decide not to fight, congrats you just bullied another team out of a point. (most of this only applies to the 5cp maps, demo is pretty much needed to take down a sentry + force uber on PL)[/quote]

AKA playing like stupid +forwarding idiots right?
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