Hi, I'd like to discuss something with you all. Today were scheduled to play our official against Red Bearzzz . Unfortunatly we didn't have a pocket that could play in time for the game and when we asked Red Bearzzz, the team we were playing, for mercs they denied every merc we offered all the way up (or down, whichever you prefer) to a div 6 merc.
Aside from denying every merc they also forced us, through a loophole in etf2l's rules, to play on a server where 3 of our players had severe ping issues (200-400 ping). We didn't hear about this until just before the match.
The team had been very slow to respond to any requests/questions in general and the leader blatantly ignored me adding him. This type of bad sportsmanship allows for one team to ruin a whole div/group and makes the comp environment a pretty negative place.
Not exactly a good way to draw in new players, wouldn't you agree?
So this makes me wonder if there would be any alternatives to prevent this in the future, since these issues have been around for a long time in every div I played in up to now.
Could we get a wildcard system that allows for a mandatory merc of one div lower or something like that? It would save everyone a lot of headache and angry text-wall writing.
This is something that could be very easily fixed and that would improve the general atmosphere of competitive European TF2. As well as stop people from misusing the rules to win a competitive match in a skill based game. Last time I checked we were clicking shit, not having a lawsuit.
I would encourage my fellow comp and div players to stop scrimming/helping Red Bearzzz, as a sort of boycott to show we do not agree with such lowly strategies and unsportsmanlike play.
If you want to read up on the match here is the link feel free to share your opinion in the comment section :)
Cheers,
Guildy
Hi, I'd like to discuss something with you all. Today were scheduled to play our official against [url=http://etf2l.org/teams/23335/]Red Bearzzz[/url] . Unfortunatly we didn't have a pocket that could play in time for the game and when we asked Red Bearzzz, the team we were playing, for mercs they denied every merc we offered all the way up (or down, whichever you prefer) to a div 6 merc.
Aside from denying every merc they also forced us, through a loophole in etf2l's rules, to play on a server where 3 of our players had severe ping issues (200-400 ping). We didn't hear about this until just before the match.
The team had been very slow to respond to any requests/questions in general and the leader blatantly ignored me adding him. This type of bad sportsmanship allows for one team to ruin a whole div/group and makes the comp environment a pretty negative place.
Not exactly a good way to draw in new players, wouldn't you agree?
So this makes me wonder if there would be any alternatives to prevent this in the future, since these issues have been around for a long time in every div I played in up to now.
Could we get a wildcard system that allows for a mandatory merc of one div lower or something like that? It would save everyone a lot of headache and angry text-wall writing.
This is something that could be very easily fixed and that would improve the general atmosphere of competitive European TF2. As well as stop people from misusing the rules to win a competitive match in a skill based game. Last time I checked we were clicking shit, not having a lawsuit.
I would encourage my fellow comp and div players to stop scrimming/helping Red Bearzzz, as a sort of boycott to show we do not agree with such lowly strategies and unsportsmanlike play.
If you want to read up on the match [url=http://etf2l.org/matches/56209/]here is the link[/url] feel free to share your opinion in the comment section :)
Cheers,
Guildy
Yep, they're scumbags. Seems like every season has to have a team like that. The ETF2L rules should have a sportsmanship clause that enables the admins to punish this kind of behaviour.
Yep, they're scumbags. Seems like every season has to have a team like that. The ETF2L rules should have a sportsmanship clause that enables the admins to punish this kind of behaviour.
How do I see what div a team is on this website?
How do I see what div a team is on this website?
@ SAAM_ You can check the matches the team played on their etf2l match page, the division is always mentioned together with their score. It is possible you'll need to check individual player match history if the team is new.
@ SAAM_ You can check the matches the team played on their etf2l match page, the division is always mentioned together with their score. It is possible you'll need to check individual player match history if the team is new.
Yeah there should be a sportsmanship clause to prevent asshats to ruin everyone elses fun.
Yeah there should be a sportsmanship clause to prevent asshats to ruin everyone elses fun.
SAAM_How do I see what div a team is on this website?
I don't think there is a way. However both teams involved here were part of the "high" bracket. So around D2 level. Best just head over to ETF2L and search for teams there :P
[quote=SAAM_]How do I see what div a team is on this website?[/quote]
I don't think there is a way. However both teams involved here were part of the "high" bracket. So around D2 level. Best just head over to ETF2L and search for teams there :P
What about something like 4 points for a default win instead of 6?
What about something like 4 points for a default win instead of 6?
_KermitWhat about something like 4 points for a default win instead of 6?
It's still 4 points for a win they probably didn't deserve. A team that would go to these lengths would take 4 guaranteed points over risking 0.
[quote=_Kermit]What about something like 4 points for a default win instead of 6?[/quote]
It's still 4 points for a win they probably didn't deserve. A team that would go to these lengths would take 4 guaranteed points over risking 0.
Don't scrim these idiots.
Wanted to play badlands because we had an official on it the next day. They wanna do logjam(week 3-4) and promise us badlands as a second map. Then they loose (pretty fast). And just leave us without getting to scrim badlands.
They are probably gonna end up in the bottom of High anyways so I really don't understand why they want these points so bad. Or they are doing it just because they can...which I think is what's happening here.
Anyways. Get good you shitters, or try to, because I'm gonna check your logs and make sure every team you scrim knows how aids you are.
Don't scrim these idiots.
Wanted to play badlands because we had an official on it the next day. They wanna do logjam(week 3-4) and promise us badlands as a second map. Then they loose ([url=http://logs.tf/657064]pretty fast[/url]). And just leave us without getting to scrim badlands.
They are probably gonna end up in the bottom of High anyways so I really don't understand why they want these points so bad. Or they are doing it just because they can...which I think is what's happening here.
Anyways. Get good you shitters, or try to, because I'm gonna check your logs and make sure every team you scrim knows how aids you are.
_KermitWhat about something like 4 points for a default win instead of 6?
It could be abused. Up against someone that you know you are going to lose? Forfeit the match and they only get 4 points.
[quote=_Kermit]What about something like 4 points for a default win instead of 6?[/quote]
It could be abused. Up against someone that you know you are going to lose? Forfeit the match and they only get 4 points.
DavidTheWin_KermitWhat about something like 4 points for a default win instead of 6?
It's still 4 points for a win they probably didn't deserve. A team that would go to these lengths would take 4 guaranteed points over risking 0.
And this way a team that's gonna loose anyways can fuck their opponent out of 2 points by just ff'ing. Bad idea imo.
ondkaja ninjad me
[quote=DavidTheWin][quote=_Kermit]What about something like 4 points for a default win instead of 6?[/quote]
It's still 4 points for a win they probably didn't deserve. A team that would go to these lengths would take 4 guaranteed points over risking 0.[/quote]
And this way a team that's gonna loose anyways can fuck their opponent out of 2 points by just ff'ing. Bad idea imo.
ondkaja ninjad me
Ozfort rules are pretty good about this:
"A mercenary can be used without the permission of the other team if they are a member of a team currently active in the same division or below. If the proposed mercenary is not a member of any team participating in owl 12 the opposing team’s captain and your division administrator must agree to allow them to play."
Imo all leagues should use this rule, it works really well.
Ozfort rules are pretty good about this:
"A mercenary can be used without the permission of the other team if they are a member of a team currently active in the same division or below. If the proposed mercenary is not a member of any team participating in owl 12 the opposing team’s captain and your division administrator must agree to allow them to play."
Imo all leagues should use this rule, it works really well.
kaneI didn't want to scrim Red Bearz anymore because of that dick move that they pulled out when we scrimmed them (what schala said), but this made me even more fucking angry. Even worse thing is that they will probably not even get punished, because nothing was done against the ETF2L rules :/
This is why there should be some sort of "sportsmanship" clausule, as well as a minimum time before a match when everything gets arranged so you can't get the whole last minute server/merc denial type of situations.
[quote=kane]I didn't want to scrim Red Bearz anymore because of that dick move that they pulled out when we scrimmed them (what schala said), but this made me even more fucking angry. Even worse thing is that they will probably not even get punished, because nothing was done against the ETF2L rules :/[/quote]
This is why there should be some sort of "sportsmanship" clausule, as well as a minimum time before a match when everything gets arranged so you can't get the whole last minute server/merc denial type of situations.
SmithsonianOzfort rules are pretty good about this:
"A mercenary can be used without the permission of the other team if they are a member of a team currently active in the same division or below. If the proposed mercenary is not a member of any team participating in owl 12 the opposing team’s captain and your division administrator must agree to allow them to play."
Imo all leagues should use this rule, it works really well.
This does sound like a pretty good system, it would definitely beat having to spend half an hour cycling through mercs that will just get denied
[quote=Smithsonian]Ozfort rules are pretty good about this:
"A mercenary can be used without the permission of the other team if they are a member of a team currently active in the same division or below. If the proposed mercenary is not a member of any team participating in owl 12 the opposing team’s captain and your division administrator must agree to allow them to play."
Imo all leagues should use this rule, it works really well.[/quote]
This does sound like a pretty good system, it would definitely beat having to spend half an hour cycling through mercs that will just get denied
Yeah, all leagues should have a rule for this.
Last night, my team played against Seendio. Despite the match obviously being between an IM team stuck in Open due to ESEA's dumb moveup rules and possibly the worst team in Open, they were very nice about the whole thing. Wish every team was like them. Most are.
However, you'll get teams of varying skill levels that will deliberately try to put the other team at a disadvantage. I wish we could trust people to be nice, but we really can't all the time. :(
Yeah, all leagues should have a rule for this.
Last night, my team played against Seendio. Despite the match obviously being between an IM team stuck in Open due to ESEA's dumb moveup rules and possibly the worst team in Open, they were very nice about the whole thing. Wish every team was like them. Most are.
However, you'll get teams of varying skill levels that will deliberately try to put the other team at a disadvantage. I wish we could trust people to be nice, but we really can't all the time. :(
TurinYeah there should be a sportsmanship clause to prevent asshats to ruin everyone elses fun.
but then there'd be no tf2 scene in australia
[quote=Turin]Yeah there should be a sportsmanship clause to prevent asshats to ruin everyone elses fun.[/quote]
but then there'd be no tf2 scene in australia
SchalalaaDavidTheWin_KermitWhat about something like 4 points for a default win instead of 6?
It's still 4 points for a win they probably didn't deserve. A team that would go to these lengths would take 4 guaranteed points over risking 0.
And this way a team that's gonna loose anyways can fuck their opponent out of 2 points by just ff'ing. Bad idea imo.
ondkaja ninjad me
Yeah I was just spitballing, changing the points awarded for default wins seems like the best thing to do though. I'm not sure how to go about it, admin discretion is probably not a great way to do it. I only say that it's the best way to do it because the points are all that matter at the end of the day.
[quote=Schalalaa][quote=DavidTheWin][quote=_Kermit]What about something like 4 points for a default win instead of 6?[/quote]
It's still 4 points for a win they probably didn't deserve. A team that would go to these lengths would take 4 guaranteed points over risking 0.[/quote]
And this way a team that's gonna loose anyways can fuck their opponent out of 2 points by just ff'ing. Bad idea imo.
ondkaja ninjad me[/quote]
Yeah I was just spitballing, changing the points awarded for default wins seems like the best thing to do though. I'm not sure how to go about it, admin discretion is probably not a great way to do it. I only say that it's the best way to do it because the points are all that matter at the end of the day.
_KermitSchalalaaDavidTheWin_KermitWhat about something like 4 points for a default win instead of 6?
It's still 4 points for a win they probably didn't deserve. A team that would go to these lengths would take 4 guaranteed points over risking 0.
And this way a team that's gonna loose anyways can fuck their opponent out of 2 points by just ff'ing. Bad idea imo.
ondkaja ninjad me
Yeah I was just spitballing, changing the points awarded for default wins seems like the best thing to do though. I'm not sure how to go about it, admin discretion is probably not a great way to do it. I only say that it's the best way to do it because the points are all that matter at the end of the day.
I don't necessarily agree, the fun of being able to play the game is very valuable too and let me tell you it's not fun to play with a player down and/or at a large ping disadvantage.
[quote=_Kermit][quote=Schalalaa][quote=DavidTheWin][quote=_Kermit]What about something like 4 points for a default win instead of 6?[/quote]
It's still 4 points for a win they probably didn't deserve. A team that would go to these lengths would take 4 guaranteed points over risking 0.[/quote]
And this way a team that's gonna loose anyways can fuck their opponent out of 2 points by just ff'ing. Bad idea imo.
ondkaja ninjad me[/quote]
Yeah I was just spitballing, changing the points awarded for default wins seems like the best thing to do though. I'm not sure how to go about it, admin discretion is probably not a great way to do it. I only say that it's the best way to do it because the points are all that matter at the end of the day.[/quote]
I don't necessarily agree, the fun of being able to play the game is very valuable too and let me tell you it's not fun to play with a player down and/or at a large ping disadvantage.
I know you might not want to hear this, but you should try to have a roster big enough to deal with 1 missing player. Adding a little depth to your roster is more important that ever now that wildcards have been removed.
I know you might not want to hear this, but you should try to have a roster big enough to deal with 1 missing player. Adding a little depth to your roster is more important that ever now that wildcards have been removed.
You make it sound like they forced you to play 5v6 by not allowing any mercs, when infact they allowed one and the screenshot of the first Map shows 5 Rostered Players + that merc.
Have you contacted Admins about Ping Issues on the ETF2L Server?
Anyways, kind of a dickmove to not offer a serverswitch with that severe Ping issues.
You make it sound like they forced you to play 5v6 by not allowing any mercs, when infact they allowed one and the screenshot of the first Map shows 5 Rostered Players + that merc.
Have you contacted Admins about Ping Issues on the ETF2L Server?
Anyways, kind of a dickmove to not offer a serverswitch with that severe Ping issues.
What happened to you sucks. You will always encounter teams that are too lazy to communicate, which will cause issues for your team, or teams that are just trying to be dicks and exploit the rules.
I'm a little surprised, however, to see this happen to a team in the high bracket. You should all have enough experience to know what to do to prevent stuff like this from happening.
Regarding your suggestions to prevent this from happening through league intervention:
- Add wildcards again: This is not possible anymore with the Swiss system. Next week's match needs the result of this week's match to seed the teams properly. This was explained in a few newsposts.
- Mercs allowed by default: It seems to work in Highlander but take a guess how long it takes until a premiership player from last season joins an open team and is allowed to merc anywhere by default. People are already complaining enough about former high tier players joining lower teams.
Just to give you some hints on how to prevent this from happening to you in the future:
- Make sure to submit your available match dates for the week in time
- Make sure you actually have enough players available that day
- Add backup players to your roster in time in case the above does not work (and the opponent does not answer to your merc requests or denies them)
- Arrange a server well ahead of the match and ask your opponent to check pings (this does not need to happen at the last possible minute)
- If your opponent is lazy to communicate, set up everything so that you do not need any communication with the other team (except for forwarding the connect string) to play the match.
What happened to you sucks. You will always encounter teams that are too lazy to communicate, which will cause issues for your team, or teams that are just trying to be dicks and exploit the rules.
I'm a little surprised, however, to see this happen to a team in the high bracket. You should all have enough experience to know what to do to prevent stuff like this from happening.
Regarding your suggestions to prevent this from happening through league intervention:
- Add wildcards again: This is not possible anymore with the Swiss system. Next week's match needs the result of this week's match to seed the teams properly. This was explained in a few newsposts.
- Mercs allowed by default: It seems to work in Highlander but take a guess how long it takes until a premiership player from last season joins an open team and is allowed to merc anywhere by default. People are already complaining enough about former high tier players joining lower teams.
Just to give you some hints on how to prevent this from happening to you in the future:
- Make sure to submit your available match dates for the week in time
- Make sure you actually have enough players available that day
- Add backup players to your roster in time in case the above does not work (and the opponent does not answer to your merc requests or denies them)
- Arrange a server well ahead of the match and ask your opponent to check pings (this does not need to happen at the last possible minute)
- If your opponent is lazy to communicate, set up everything so that you do not need any communication with the other team (except for forwarding the connect string) to play the match.
Sorry to hear about what happened to you man. I know exactly what its like as I have had mercs denied in really important games a few times in the past and every time it was Russians who were doing it. I don't have anything against Russians but some of them take this game wayyyy too seriously, like the french take this game way too seriously as well but at least they are usually good sports. Some Russians though will just do anything they possibly can to win. Also worth noting that Russians have been banned for cheating more than any other country in ETF2L right now (it used to be France but Russia has taken over) I'm not saying that all Russians are like this (most of them are really cool) but a lot of them treat this game like its the grand finals of some big dota 2 tournament, so like Admirable said I think its worth getting 1 or 2 backups in case this kind of thing happens.
Sorry to hear about what happened to you man. I know exactly what its like as I have had mercs denied in really important games a few times in the past and every time it was Russians who were doing it. I don't have anything against Russians but some of them take this game wayyyy too seriously, like the french take this game way too seriously as well but at least they are usually good sports. Some Russians though will just do anything they possibly can to win. Also worth noting that Russians have been banned for cheating more than any other country in ETF2L right now (it used to be France but Russia has taken over) I'm not saying that all Russians are like this (most of them are really cool) but a lot of them treat this game like its the grand finals of some big dota 2 tournament, so like Admirable said I think its worth getting 1 or 2 backups in case this kind of thing happens.
even though ur super upset about people gaying u over the rules inviting the community to bandwagon onto ur issue over matchcomms might not be the best idea
i mean come on u guys arent french right?
even though ur super upset about people gaying u over the rules inviting the community to bandwagon onto ur issue over matchcomms might not be the best idea
i mean come on u guys arent french right?
SmithsonianOzfort rules are pretty good about this:
"A mercenary can be used without the permission of the other team if they are a member of a team currently active in the same division or below. If the proposed mercenary is not a member of any team participating in owl 12 the opposing team’s captain and your division administrator must agree to allow them to play."
Imo all leagues should use this rule, it works really well.
What happens to really good players who are playing in lower divisions for a season? The example off the top of my head is schocky now, playing in Mid. If I couldn't get a scout in and this rule was in place (or even a rule only allowing mercs by default from lower divisions), then I could get schocky as a merc which would be a huge upgrade in fact. Does the rule have a clause about that?
[quote=Smithsonian]Ozfort rules are pretty good about this:
"A mercenary can be used without the permission of the other team if they are a member of a team currently active in the same division or below. If the proposed mercenary is not a member of any team participating in owl 12 the opposing team’s captain and your division administrator must agree to allow them to play."
Imo all leagues should use this rule, it works really well.[/quote]
What happens to really good players who are playing in lower divisions for a season? The example off the top of my head is schocky now, playing in Mid. If I couldn't get a scout in and this rule was in place (or even a rule only allowing mercs by default from lower divisions), then I could get schocky as a merc which would be a huge upgrade in fact. Does the rule have a clause about that?
CanFo- Mercs allowed by default: It seems to work in Highlander but take a guess how long it takes until a premiership player from last season joins an open team and is allowed to merc anywhere by default. People are already complaining enough about former high tier players joining lower teams.
Yes, had enough classic arguments over the years with opponents saying "but he's in div 3/4/5!!!!" when they're ex-prem/div 1 players, and/or it does partly rely on teams having been placed correctly (less of an issue with the swiss system I suspect).
[quote=CanFo]
- Mercs allowed by default: It seems to work in Highlander but take a guess how long it takes until a premiership player from last season joins an open team and is allowed to merc anywhere by default. People are already complaining enough about former high tier players joining lower teams.
[/quote]
Yes, had enough classic arguments over the years with opponents saying "but he's in div 3/4/5!!!!" when they're ex-prem/div 1 players, and/or it does partly rely on teams having been placed correctly (less of an issue with the swiss system I suspect).
AdmirableI know you might not want to hear this, but you should try to have a roster big enough to deal with 1 missing player. Adding a little depth to your roster is more important that ever now that wildcards have been removed.
I left their team to play with Forskings, it was my fault :(
[quote=Admirable]I know you might not want to hear this, but you should try to have a roster big enough to deal with 1 missing player. Adding a little depth to your roster is more important that ever now that wildcards have been removed.[/quote]
I left their team to play with Forskings, it was my fault :(
last time i played on an etf2l server it had old plugins and old logs and horrible connection
i would honestly do anything to avoid playing on those servers
the servers are a problem aswell, etf2l should use the ozfortress rule and have an admin for each tier (3 admins) and so this whole thing can be avoided in the future
i mean they denied an open player to play in high, that can't be right
last time i played on an etf2l server it had old plugins and old logs and horrible connection
i would honestly do anything to avoid playing on those servers
the servers are a problem aswell, etf2l should use the ozfortress rule and have an admin for each tier (3 admins) and so this whole thing can be avoided in the future
i mean they denied an open player to play in high, that can't be right
SideshowSmithsonianOzfort rules are pretty good about this:
"A mercenary can be used without the permission of the other team if they are a member of a team currently active in the same division or below. If the proposed mercenary is not a member of any team participating in owl 12 the opposing team’s captain and your division administrator must agree to allow them to play."
Imo all leagues should use this rule, it works really well.
What happens to really good players who are playing in lower divisions for a season? The example off the top of my head is schocky now, playing in Mid. If I couldn't get a scout in and this rule was in place (or even a rule only allowing mercs by default from lower divisions), then I could get schocky as a merc which would be a huge upgrade in fact. Does the rule have a clause about that?
We have conditional allowances. Essentially, you can be allowed to play in a lower division with a less experienced team based on terms negotiated with the admins, usually a class restriction.
It's honestly a pretty bad rule to have to deal with, I wouldn't recommend it, but it does help solve some seeding issues when it comes to teams with offclassers.
imo admins should always have the ability to override a denial for cases when it's obvious that they are trying to play the rules into getting an ffw or 6v5.
[quote=Sideshow][quote=Smithsonian]Ozfort rules are pretty good about this:
"A mercenary can be used without the permission of the other team if they are a member of a team currently active in the same division or below. If the proposed mercenary is not a member of any team participating in owl 12 the opposing team’s captain and your division administrator must agree to allow them to play."
Imo all leagues should use this rule, it works really well.[/quote]
What happens to really good players who are playing in lower divisions for a season? The example off the top of my head is schocky now, playing in Mid. If I couldn't get a scout in and this rule was in place (or even a rule only allowing mercs by default from lower divisions), then I could get schocky as a merc which would be a huge upgrade in fact. Does the rule have a clause about that?[/quote]
We have conditional allowances. Essentially, you can be allowed to play in a lower division with a less experienced team based on terms negotiated with the admins, usually a class restriction.
It's honestly a pretty bad rule to have to deal with, I wouldn't recommend it, but it does help solve some seeding issues when it comes to teams with offclassers.
imo admins should always have the ability to override a denial for cases when it's obvious that they are trying to play the rules into getting an ffw or 6v5.