cp_raybans (a/d)

#1

yyler

10 Frags – +

THIS MAP USED TO BE CALLED CP_RAYBANS BUT NOW IT IS CP_FEN

A 3cp attack/defense map. With this map, I want to change the expectation and reaction for A/D maps in Highlander.

The points are (mostly) taken from old community maps that never quite went anywhere. First is a point out of one of my a/d maps. Second is based on the 2nd point in cp_soot, a 5cp. Last is loosely based on final point of cp_petrol around the a21 revision, a 4cp a/d map.

There is a lot of height variation. I will probably end up needing to reduce and simplify it, but I wanted to start a bit crazy because I think what TF2 needs is something a little out of left field. Last purposefully has an emphasis on sneaky routes and jump class mobility; this leaves medics out in the cold a little but I am hoping with playtesting I can figure out what to do on that front. Cap times are intentionally long -- these are very easy to change, but I appreciate that in Mtn Lab the long cap times give Red opportunity to setup. They are not as long as Mtn Lab. In HL they probably don't need to be so long, I am fully aware. I do think there's probably a lot to change, but I also think I have a strong start.

I would really appreciate your help in testing this. My only other outlet for testing maps is among people who also make maps, and their feedback is not really ideal -- it's often more technical or theoretical rather than practical. If you play this please send me some kind of demo/mumble recording so I can see what players are thinking and doing. Additionally I think it's usually better to play it a few times, 2 or 3 rounds per team, so you can get a feel for layout/routes before fully judging.

Screens:
First
http://i.imgur.com/If6QGa8.jpg

Second
http://i.imgur.com/k8PLnrZ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rPc7AV9.jpg

Red spawn/Last
http://i.imgur.com/HKkT8h9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Qq9nPgb.jpg

Overview
http://i.imgur.com/BGMaXFj.jpg

download (a5)

[i][b]THIS MAP USED TO BE CALLED CP_RAYBANS BUT NOW IT IS CP_FEN[/b][/i]

A 3cp attack/defense map. With this map, I want to change the expectation and reaction for A/D maps in Highlander.

The points are (mostly) taken from old community maps that never quite went anywhere. First is a point out of one of my a/d maps. Second is based on the 2nd point in cp_soot, a 5cp. Last is loosely based on final point of cp_petrol around the a21 revision, a 4cp a/d map.

[b]There is a lot of height variation.[/b] I will probably end up needing to reduce and simplify it, but I wanted to start a bit crazy because I think what TF2 needs is something a little out of left field. Last purposefully has an emphasis on sneaky routes and jump class mobility; this leaves medics out in the cold a little but I am hoping with playtesting I can figure out what to do on that front. [b]Cap times are intentionally long[/b] -- these are very easy to change, but I appreciate that in Mtn Lab the long cap times give Red opportunity to setup. [i]They are not[/i] as long as Mtn Lab. In HL they probably don't need to be so long, I am fully aware. I do think there's probably a lot to change, but I also think I have a strong start.

I would really appreciate your help in testing this. My only other outlet for testing maps is among people who also make maps, and their feedback is not really ideal -- it's often more technical or theoretical rather than practical. If you play this please send me some kind of demo/mumble recording so I can see what players are thinking and doing. Additionally I think it's usually better to play it a few times, 2 or 3 rounds per team, so you can get a feel for layout/routes before fully judging.

[b]Screens:[/b]
First
http://i.imgur.com/If6QGa8.jpg

Second
http://i.imgur.com/k8PLnrZ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rPc7AV9.jpg

Red spawn/Last
http://i.imgur.com/HKkT8h9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Qq9nPgb.jpg

Overview
http://i.imgur.com/BGMaXFj.jpg

[url=calcified.net/maps/cp_fen_a5.bsp.bz2]download (a5)[/url]

#2

defy

17 Frags – +

this map is sponsored by

http://i.imgur.com/fKwbA1W.jpg

this map is sponsored by

[img]http://i.imgur.com/fKwbA1W.jpg[/img]

#3

wareya

1 Frags – +

Judging just by the screenshots, the only thing I really don't like is how the whole blue spawn exit is literally on the bottom of slopes, but that feeling might just because they're not displacements yet and have dev textures.

#4

haz

1 Frags – +

Like the hanging control point but feel in highlander it could shift huge pressure onto your soldier and demo to cap, as I can only see one route onto it for other classes. Cool map though

#5

yyler

0 Frags – +

defythis map is sponsored by

http://i.imgur.com/fKwbA1W.jpg

RB 2132 actually.

(The name will change eventually.)

[quote=defy]this map is sponsored by

[img]http://i.imgur.com/fKwbA1W.jpg[/img][/quote]
RB 2132 actually.

(The name will change eventually.)

#6

prestige

3 Frags – +

can you sign my virtual tf2 sunglasses named pro viaduct?

#7

PapaSmurf323

-13 Frags – +

its not badlands

#8

Mangachu

2 Frags – +

things that i think should be changed
*remove the deathpit on A
*reduce the amount of ammo on the last point (counted 7 ammo packs 3 of them being full ones)
*able to spawncamp two doors from standing on the point - http://imgur.com/vbCuQ8z
*There is really only one way to push into B that leads to another three doors, and can be sniped from perhaps add a second entrance/gate this area off? - http://imgur.com/D7ypLUq

The map looks like it has potential, would like seeing a linear map a/d cp map played in either 6s or hl

things that i think should be changed
*remove the deathpit on A
*reduce the amount of ammo on the last point (counted 7 ammo packs 3 of them being full ones)
*able to spawncamp two doors from standing on the point - http://imgur.com/vbCuQ8z
*There is really only one way to push into B that leads to another three doors, and can be sniped from perhaps add a second entrance/gate this area off? - http://imgur.com/D7ypLUq

The map looks like it has potential, would like seeing a linear map a/d cp map played in either 6s or hl

#9

yyler

4 Frags – +

Mangachuthings that i think should be changed
*remove the deathpit on A
*reduce the amount of ammo on the last point (counted 7 ammo packs 3 of them being full ones)
*able to spawncamp two doors from standing on the point - http://imgur.com/vbCuQ8z
*There is really only one way to push into B that leads to another three doors, and can be sniped from perhaps add a second entrance/gate this area off? - http://imgur.com/D7ypLUq

The map looks like it has potential, would like seeing a linear map a/d cp map played in either 6s or hl

Thanks for taking time to do a run through. Seems you found some sightlines I missed. I think with playtesting I will probably find other things to change in both areas, so I'll hold off on making changes just to break those sightlines for now. For example I think I'm probably going to need to make C smaller and more focused, but I want to do so based on how players use the area, and that alone could solve the sightline issue there. Same with the B area.

As for the death pit -- I am totally willing to take it out, change it, etc. I'm offering the entire map in the spirit of Highlander shaping it into what they want to play. But I do ask that you play a few versions with it just to see if it's actually a problem. That's the point I am the most familiar with. Over a two year period, I tested that point over about 15 revisions of a larger map. I tested it in pubs and Highlander PUGs. I tested it a few times for 8 hours at a time. In my experience it's not problematic.

The idea is to create a point surrounded by negative space: nothing can splash off a wall, nothing comes from below, above, behind. Pyros aren't really an issue because the rails are high enough to block most airblasts, and if you can't kill a Pyro running straight at you you're gonna die anyway. Same for getting bounced -- the point being raised means it's hard for explosive classes to bounce Blu cappers off, and if they do bounce you off, they likely did so much damage you'd die when you hit the ground anyway. I think the point works well. It's also (currently) pretty trivially easy to cap.

I humbly ask that if you do want to play it and shape what is potentially the next A/D map in comp play, play a few times as-is. As I said, I am willing to change it if that is what people want -- but it's not like I didn't think about why I was putting it in, about how it works, about why it works, and about the attitude against death pits.

[quote=Mangachu]things that i think should be changed
*remove the deathpit on A
*reduce the amount of ammo on the last point (counted 7 ammo packs 3 of them being full ones)
*able to spawncamp two doors from standing on the point - http://imgur.com/vbCuQ8z
*There is really only one way to push into B that leads to another three doors, and can be sniped from perhaps add a second entrance/gate this area off? - http://imgur.com/D7ypLUq

The map looks like it has potential, would like seeing a linear map a/d cp map played in either 6s or hl[/quote]
Thanks for taking time to do a run through. Seems you found some sightlines I missed. I think with playtesting I will probably find other things to change in both areas, so I'll hold off on making changes just to break those sightlines for now. For example I think I'm probably going to need to make C smaller and more focused, but I want to do so based on how players use the area, and that alone could solve the sightline issue there. Same with the B area.

As for the death pit -- I am totally willing to take it out, change it, etc. I'm offering the entire map in the spirit of Highlander shaping it into what they want to play. But I do ask that you play a few versions with it just to see if it's actually a problem. That's the point I am the most familiar with. Over a two year period, I tested that point over about 15 revisions of a larger map. I tested it in pubs and Highlander PUGs. I tested it a few times for 8 hours at a time. In my experience it's not problematic.

The idea is to create a point surrounded by negative space: nothing can splash off a wall, nothing comes from below, above, behind. Pyros aren't really an issue because the rails are high enough to block most airblasts, and if you can't kill a Pyro running straight at you you're gonna die anyway. Same for getting bounced -- the point being raised means it's hard for explosive classes to bounce Blu cappers off, and if they do bounce you off, they likely did so much damage you'd die when you hit the ground anyway. I think the point works well. It's also (currently) pretty trivially easy to cap.

I humbly ask that if you do want to play it and shape what is potentially the next A/D map in comp play, play a few times as-is. As I said, I am willing to change it if that is what people want -- but it's not like I didn't think about why I was putting it in, about how it works, about why it works, and about the attitude against death pits.

#10

Carl

-5 Frags – +

Can someone explain to me how adding a white sticker of a scribble makes a $2 pair of sunglasses stylish

#11

Mangachu

2 Frags – +

Well it may not even be the pyro that launches you off, loose cannon 2013
I was thinking you could keep the point elevated, and bring some use to the room in the back left on B (make a hallway ans a one way door that can be used once A is captured for a secobd area to attack from?)
This would be used if you get rid if the death pit

#12

yyler

0 Frags – +

MangachuWell it may not even be the pyro that launches you off, loose cannon 2013
I was thinking you could keep the point elevated, and bring some use to the room in the back left on B (make a hallway ans a one way door that can be used once A is captured for a secobd area to attack from?)
This would be used if you get rid if the death pit

Good idea, actually, but that doesn't solve the design of the new point or what to do with the rest of the space.

[quote=Mangachu]Well it may not even be the pyro that launches you off, loose cannon 2013
I was thinking you could keep the point elevated, and bring some use to the room in the back left on B (make a hallway ans a one way door that can be used once A is captured for a secobd area to attack from?)
This would be used if you get rid if the death pit[/quote]
Good idea, actually, but that doesn't solve the design of the new point or what to do with the rest of the space.

#13

aiera

1 Frags – +

CarlCan someone explain to me how adding a white sticker of a scribble makes a $2 pair of sunglasses stylish

It's like a reverse of putting a "revoke women's rights" bumper sticker on a car.

[quote=Carl]Can someone explain to me how adding a white sticker of a scribble makes a $2 pair of sunglasses stylish[/quote]
It's like a reverse of putting a "revoke women's rights" bumper sticker on a car.

#14

yyler

2 Frags – +

Here's what I'll do: I'll remove the deathpit without you playing it at all. I think it could play perfectly and people would still complain, so I may as well just do it.

I discovered I need to fix something small, so I can probably push out an a3 with a new A before the weekend. Think it'll be possible to PUG Fri/Sat/Sun?

Here's what I'll do: I'll remove the deathpit without you playing it at all. I think it could play perfectly and people would still complain, so I may as well just do it.

I discovered I need to fix something small, so I can probably push out an a3 with a new A before the weekend. Think it'll be possible to PUG Fri/Sat/Sun?

#15

Mangachu

1 Frags – +

I don't see the upside of having the deathpit, having something that could ruin an uber and kill the medic while ubered should not be a thing (upward pls)

#16

RhetoricalAnarchist

0 Frags – +

Deathpits are the reason Upward is the best HL map
(Watch out for the incoming - Frag brigade)

#17

Dagger

cp_granary_pro

4 Frags – +

RhetoricalAnarchistDeathpits are the reason Upward is the best HL map
(Watch out for the incoming - Frag brigade)

for highlander it would work because there's already enough bullshit going on that deathpits don't even make you mad

but for 6s no

[quote=RhetoricalAnarchist]Deathpits are the reason Upward is the best HL map
(Watch out for the incoming - Frag brigade)[/quote]

for highlander it would work because there's already enough bullshit going on that deathpits don't even make you mad

but for 6s no

#18

komorebi

2 Frags – +

Yeah I like the idea of a deathpit in highlander, seems to fit the gametype for me. Steel is my favorite highlander map (rip?), and part of the reason it's amazing to play and spectate is the humor and gameplay around the pit.

#19

yyler

0 Frags – +

I can't get my idea to work well -- I know I won't be ready for the weekend. Play it as is if anyone is interested and we'll go from there.

#20

Fubar

koth_product

2 Frags – +

played the map the other day, it was a blast

#21

yyler

2 Frags – +

Updated to A4 based on several playtests.

Last is smaller, there is another route onto C, A and the surrounding area got a rework, B is more defensible, forward spawns have changed, lots of pickup changes, probably more I forgot.

Screens:
First
http://i.imgur.com/If6QGa8.jpg

Second
http://i.imgur.com/k8PLnrZ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rPc7AV9.jpg

Red spawn/Last
http://i.imgur.com/HKkT8h9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Qq9nPgb.jpg

Overview
http://i.imgur.com/BGMaXFj.jpg

download (a4)

Haven't heard of anyone from tf.tv playing this. No interest or no motivation or what?

Updated to A4 based on several playtests.

Last is smaller, there is another route onto C, A and the surrounding area got a rework, B is more defensible, forward spawns have changed, lots of pickup changes, probably more I forgot.

[b]Screens:[/b]
First
http://i.imgur.com/If6QGa8.jpg

Second
http://i.imgur.com/k8PLnrZ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rPc7AV9.jpg

Red spawn/Last
http://i.imgur.com/HKkT8h9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Qq9nPgb.jpg

Overview
http://i.imgur.com/BGMaXFj.jpg

[url=calcified.net/maps/cp_raybans_a4.bsp.bz2]download (a4)[/url]

Haven't heard of anyone from tf.tv playing this. No interest or no motivation or what?

#22

komorebi

2 Frags – +

Fubarplayed the map the other day, it was a blastyylerHaven't heard of anyone from tf.tv playing this. No interest or no motivation or what?

?

Was also played in the new map pugs, not sure why there's no feedback from that.

http://teamfortress.tv/forum/thread/12154/1

From running around on it alone and practicing jumps and stuff I thought it was really cool and different from anything I have played before, please don't lose interest as this could become one of my personal favorite maps.

[quote=Fubar]played the map the other day, it was a blast[/quote]
[quote=yyler]
Haven't heard of anyone from tf.tv playing this. No interest or no motivation or what?[/quote]

?

Was also played in the new map pugs, not sure why there's no feedback from that.

http://teamfortress.tv/forum/thread/12154/1

From running around on it alone and practicing jumps and stuff I thought it was really cool and different from anything I have played before, please don't lose interest as this could become one of my personal favorite maps.

#23

yyler

0 Frags – +

Fubar played it with me separately, not as a part of some tf.tv group or whatever, unless he played it a time I wasn't there that I don't know about.

I heard new map pugs didn't care for it but I didn't get anything concrete.

Fubar played it with me separately, not as a part of some tf.tv group or whatever, unless he played it a time I wasn't there that I don't know about.

I heard new map pugs didn't care for it but I didn't get anything concrete.

#24

gr8stalin

2 Frags – +

Since you released a4 I'm not sure if any of our commentary will actually come in handy, but I'll publish it to YT anyway and link it. The map didn't really leave a good taste in anyone's mouth after the whole ordeal. We don't have the server size to support Highlander (nor do most of the players in the group particularly care for the gamemode), but the goal of the group is to give map makers feedback, so we played it anyway. Most of our gripes will come in the form that it's a fucking gigantic map, but we did pick apart some of the not as good parts of the map.

EDIT: VOD up and processed.

Since you released a4 I'm not sure if any of our commentary will actually come in handy, but I'll publish it to YT anyway and link it. The map didn't really leave a good taste in anyone's mouth after the whole ordeal. We don't have the server size to support Highlander (nor do most of the players in the group particularly care for the gamemode), but the goal of the group is to give map makers feedback, so we played it anyway. Most of our gripes will come in the form that it's a fucking gigantic map, but we did pick apart some of the not as good parts of the map.

EDIT: [url=www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgRKUd08A8k]VOD up and processed[/url].

#25

yyler

0 Frags – +

Cool, it's probably still useful. I appreciate that. Since I am gearing it toward larger playercounts I'm not sure it'll ever work for you, but we'll see.

#26

Benroads

0 Frags – +

I see that you've fixed up last a bit. That was my main problem with the map, red has so much cover and it's near impossible to get heals on point since you'd just get instagibbed just trying to walk around and get there. Also having the spawn door so close made defending even easier.

#27

yyler

2 Frags – +

Couple things:
- A5 released
- Changed the name to cp_fen (if admins can change thread titles, I would appreciate it)
- Adjusted lighting
- Adjusted time given for caps
- Discouraged Red from holding B -> C hallway
- Added signage in lots of places

Would still like to improve A and make C more defensible. Haven't gotten great high level feedback though. The new map pugs video was enlightening in some ways but the map just isn't meant for 6s. It's the most negative response I've gotten so far and one I totally expected, but I did feel like the map wasn't given a fair shake -- I'd appreciate another test or two though it's not significantly smaller. I have a few changes planned for C that aren't totally figured out yet but I'm overall pretty happy with how this has been going overall.

Couple things:
- [url=calcified.net/maps/cp_fen_a5.bsp.bz2]A5 released[/url]
- Changed the name to cp_fen (if admins can change thread titles, I would appreciate it)
- Adjusted lighting
- Adjusted time given for caps
- Discouraged Red from holding B -> C hallway
- Added signage in lots of places

Would still like to improve A and make C more defensible. Haven't gotten great high level feedback though. The new map pugs video was enlightening in some ways but the map just isn't meant for 6s. It's the most negative response I've gotten so far and one I totally expected, but I did feel like the map wasn't given a fair shake -- I'd appreciate another test or two though it's not significantly smaller. I have a few changes planned for C that aren't totally figured out yet but I'm overall pretty happy with how this has been going overall.