this would be a great fix for spam angles, im sure on some maps you could find a spot where spamming pipes at certain spots could cause them to det right where people are normally holding

this is literally untrue

edit: just for clarification sake, the spray in counterstrike has slightly random elements, however it follows a consistent pattern that lets you be slightly aware of how the bullets will spread. there are hundreds of videos about this if you aren't super familiar with the idea. in tf2, the pistol spray is literally completely random after the first bullet, and will fire bullets at any point inside of a massive circle centered around your crosshair. there is no way of predicting whether the first bullet will spray to the left or right, up or down, or how far away from your crosshair the bullet will actually be.

i dont know if including spray patterns in tf2 and nerfing each weapon that gains a spray pattern is the right thing to do, but it would certainly be better than what we have now which is completely uncontrolled.

Very, very cool map in concept, i really love some of the features of this map. Gonna go point by point and talk about things that need changing, things that you can work with, and things that i think should stay. Also, i'm going to start with some general advice - get rid of a lot of the tricky terrain. I'll point out examples as i come to them in screenshots, but in general the terrain on this map is too tough to navigate, meaning a lot of frustration when a player slightly mistimes a jump or holds a strafe key for half a second too long.

Starting with last, a couple huge sightlines that really need to be fixed before anything else:

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/271720179209610261/0A3C1D82D41AAFAC818D4E6FF26F98154F0440D9/

^This sightline is especially egregious because there is no real way of spamming the sniper to prevent him from sniping there unless you can manage to sink rockets directly into the little gap. the sightline completely cuts off the leftmost spawn from being used because there is no way to leave spawn without being seen.

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/271720179209609815/C3C64EDFF45FC181E6DDAD2490EEFFF1DC0F3BC4/

^this sightline prevents people from walking out of the top entrance completely, unless they stay in the direct center of the sightline and stay pressed to the wall, and even then thats as far as a player can move
.
.

http://i.imgur.com/ePXU3ol.jpg

The light that you can jump on to get into the upper entrance to last is super clunky, tricky terrain. I'm unsure of the small wall next to the point, i couldnt figure out any sightline that it was reasonably blocking so i'm not entirely sure why its there. The ramp at the back is sort of a bigger issue, and one that i'm not really sure how to solve. right now the ramp really has no major purpose. it ends up making right side spawners sort of unaware of whats going on in last by blocking so much vision, but doesnt protect them from snipers. I'm unsure of what changes to make to have those not happen, but i think it probably needs a change.

http://i.imgur.com/lxmvKlB.jpg

an ugly, but simple solution to the lightpost jump is to just have a ramp wrap around the entrance. i'm sure you could come up with something more elegant, but a change definitely needs to happen there. a small temporary solution for the right spawn door is to just add an entrance to the back of the right side hut, which would allow players coming out of that spawn more options to get on the point and give them a way to temporarily avoid snipers. the roof of the main entrance seems like a questionable spot to be able to stand. (also just a note, you can detonate stickies through that sort of material, meaning that you can place unclearable sticky traps by shooting sticks on the roof there)

THEORYCRAFT! THEORYCRAFT!
i think if you enclose the point and turn it into a sort of gravelpit B type of situation, have the spawns come in higher and slightly further back like the defender entrance in gpit, and have the high middle spawn come directly into/on top of the building, it could create a really interesting point. it sort of already has a gpit b feel, with the lowground surrounding the point and a lot of cover on the point itself.
.
Moving into the lobby:

http://i.imgur.com/bQsTtP9.jpg

^cover up all of the gaps, they will just lead to frustration. most, if not all, of the planks need to be widened significantly or turned into actual ramps because right now they are too easy to fall off of mid combat and will have eternal issues with splashbugs. try to enable players to fight each other, not the map. i'm not really sure what to do with the top of the tunnel but i'm of the opinion that you should get rid of it, too easy to hide in, awkward space, really serves no good transitional purpose.

http://i.imgur.com/624qFuN.jpg

^same issues here, i also suggest adding a little extension to the porch so that players can just jump straight down onto the crate and dont have to strafe jump. the flat set of planks is one of the only ones i would feel comfortable leaving, if for no reason other than its the most convenient solution. consider replacing the two with a single thicker plank though, so that projectiles behave for players.

Moving on to 2nd:

http://i.imgur.com/OEETK33.jpg

right now i think the major issue with 2nd is its relative inaccessibility for most classes. i just have a few possible changes here including: lowering the point the be level with the walkway, moving the crate stack closer to the point to allow people to jump to the point/widening the ramp onto the point from the crates, extending the point from the edge of the building slightly to increase surface area and make the crates closer, and also adding a ramp from the mid entrance.

Thats all i have time for for now but i'll go over the rest of the map some time in the next few days

sideshow has a young george washington look going on here

smh no gregs

GREGS

he literally said "i wasn't pretending" in the post, can you read? i mean i think the guy is an idiot too but at least read the posts

yeah both of them breed shitty habits, mge encourages dumb stuff like counterjumping and obviously is just an unrealistic situation, but DM encourages suiciding into big groups of people because you can chain kills so easily. both of them encourage playing like a baiting retard and hiding from your opponent to get the upper hand, which will obviously ruin you in actual games. i think a mix of both is healthy as long as you are playing in a 6's environment regularly too. if you just nolife on dm/mge and never play the actual game then you won't ever understand what the bad habits are and how to avoid them.

nzoth deathrattle rogue is pretty insane, it curves out really well with undercity huckster, raptor, tomb pillager, and xaril, you basically never run out of cards. also you run 2x shadowcaster which plays ridiculously well with high-impact deathrattles

yeah i think by and large competitive tf2 is too complicated of a game on a conceptual level to apply this kind of practice to, but this works really well to practice more specific, mechanical stuff, like rocket jumping (especially the hitting your stopping point, deloading, backing down and then trying to build up to your stopping point and break passed it again, that concept works really well in rocket jumping) or dm/mge (i'm gonna try to hit X airshots this round, i'm gonna try to approach more of X class this round)

cmon man

i like that dollarlayer has spent the last hour and a half looking for something to support his viewpoint and the best thing he could find was a youtube prank video

ooh i really like brawl em

one of those is a guaranteed cost, the other is a cost that you have invented to suit your claims and that there is no proof of actually existing

opinions cant be wrong, but they can be ill informed, hateful, and ignorant of actual facts which have been presented numerous times throughout this thread