Yo there are too few admins in EU, it would be epic if there were more

It limits the gameplay. No interesting jumps/bombs, less angles of attack onto the point, uninteresting combat since it's all in a box.

The map should be designed to make the entrance non-extremely safe and not a strong height then. A big part of the reason why it would be too safe is precisely because the point is inside, and you can only reach that room with a very conveluted walkway: You literally cannot bomb the medic because of it. And it doesn't even prevent anything in the firstplace because a medic could surely just walk back and stand in the same door, holding it open for teammates and left easily if they really wanted.

Firstly, the same effect can be accomplished with the point still being inside. There are better ways than this two-layer approach and small control points to do that. An example of this gameplay done better is honestly the mid point of cp_5gorge where the entrances are more open, it's larger, and with fewer passages.

You could also make it outside while separating it from the "outside" with big walls/structures, make entrances larger, and prevent highbombing in and out and that would be it. A lot of the geometry inside is so tight and cluttered, so that teams that even try to hold inside just die. This forces the team to either hold on the enemy yard, outside, or your own yard with some forward players. Either way, all team combat will be forced into the outer areas of the map, and the indoor areas serving merely as a getaway for scouts/soldiers or as connectors to different parts of the outside area. There's no reason to be inside other than to cap the point.

A league setting is very different than a casual doublemix in many respects. Yes the PLAYING AREA is less than viaduct. There's no need for all these extra areas if you could just change the spawntimes? They could be shortened by 5 seconds and have the same effect. All without the extra downside of having to look for hiders or flankers hiding deep deep behind your lines. Since there are so many exits and entrances to every room and area it's also impossible to prevent people from hiding or flanking and you just will get destroyed by it over and over again.

POST 3: Nerd essay about my philosophy of mapmaking in late beta and release candidate

With all due respect, please take everything I said above with a grain of salt. It took a lot of time to write and I'm very well aware that even considering or trying most of that stuff will take an insane amount of time. I believe this is a GREAT map as of right now, even with all these flaws I pointed out, and could very well become a staple in NA/EU if you keep it on the same track.

I think that you at all costs should stop making big layout changes as of right now. I feel like a part of why logjam still is being developed is because you are a very caring mapmaker and individual, and you are eager to try to improve it. But I'm here to tell you that instead of changing stuff and changing it again if that doesn't work, you should instead revert it. Maybe you could even just modify things instead of doing really large changes.

Don't get me wrong, a lot of changes that have been done could very well be positive both for how it plays and how it's balanced. The reason why changing layouts in large ways should be avoided, is in my opinion, that you very often risk introducing new issues that need to be adressed. In my opinion this is part of the reason this map has sort of struggled to become liked and/or viable. (Along with the general aversion to new maps). In many ways it is functionally a different map than the late beta stages.

Generally I would consider a map moving from alpha to beta once the general layout is set and also fairly balanced. In the beta stage, there should not really be any large layout changes. Mostly small changes OR absolutely necessary layout changes. Most things should be modified instead of changed at this stage. RC should be when you got the layout absolutely nailed, and are focusing only on detailing and bug fixing. Small fixes could still be done but should be conservative. Large layout changes should not really happen unless it the map is broken right at this stage.

With these premises in mind, logjam as of right now is sort of in a late beta or early release candidate. (I know that maps with mostly dev textures and not proper detailing are hard to get tested at all, which is why I did a lot of detailing for my own map and it's still in alpha).

Honestly I can't be bothered reading through my own wall of text another time so I'll just conclude that nothing in any of these posts are meant as personal attacks/mean ignorant comments and I'm just passionate and eager to help - otherwise I would not have wasted my time making these posts believe me. Map is good and better than prolands/badlands, granary/pronary, viaduct/product, and snakewater in my opinion.

POST 2 - Imgur link with album FULL OF SPECIFIC FEEDBACK/EXAMPLES:

https://imgur.com/a/8V1PKh0

POST 1 - This containts mostly written text about layout changes

MID:
There's a lot of random tiny clutter on the mid point area. If the area as a whole would be larger it wouldn't be as much of a problem but just reducing the clutter would probably make it a lot better. Most of the mid feels like you're either standing on highground or running in trenches and being shot down upon. This trench style of gameplay is particularly horrible for medics, as it forces them to play far back (around the health/ammo in choke) for the entire mid if they want any chance to survive. This also affects the other classes since if they drop down to the floor or get knocked down / denied they are already at a disadvantage.

The area under the point is never used on midfights because there will be a soldier and/or a scout on the hut basically removing you from the midfight. You can't dodge anything because the difference between highground is both too little (height under the bridge leaves no room to dodge spam) or too drastic (hut vs under bridge).

What the mid does fairly well compared to previous versions is that it denies several of the the big sightlines that used to be an issue.

The entrance/exit to logroom and the way it's split up also makes it sort of a part of the clutter issue. It's just a horrible area for fighting and I get the purpose it's serving: to deny sightlines into logroom, however I believe that might be possible some other way.

The way the mid is structured, it would be better for gameplay, I think, if you were able to do highbombs more consistently off of the walls that already exist. (Above the mid-exit from logroom, and above the entrance to cave). There's also an overhang that you can get caught on, which I believe shouldn't be there at all. As the mid is right now, medics play far back, and it would really add potential for agression to have a consistent way to bomb without getting too easily denied by scouts.

Potential solitions:
- Delete as many props as possible on mid to decrease clutter.

- Simplify the geometry while keeping the layout.

- Remove overhangs and stuff, make roofs a bit higher so you can high bomb off them.

- Consider raising the bridge some units higher and make the area under a bit wider as well, making that dynamic on mids more viable.

- Does the huts on mid need to have angled roof? (and if you want that, why the the ^ shape and not the / shape?

- Maybe position the geometry on mid so the gameplay feels less like boxes and trenches, mainly by making the trenches not feel like trenches (wider?)

CAVE: I think the cave area along with the wooden catwalk thing is fine honestly

LOGROOM: Mostly fine, possible layout change in post 2.

CHOKE: I'm not sure you can actually get a good rampslide from mid to second on the displacement. Probably with stickies but I can't hit it even with two rockets

The feedback can be summed up with just some short words: Too big, too many pathways, too conveluted. The fact that the point is inside of a house makes it a lot worse because the combat is boring. One-way doors are also really bad in general.

I don't know if the map is worked on anymore but heres some feedback anyway:

- There's no spawn blocker. If the shutters are open you can walk into the spawn..

- The angled surfaces on the side of the point are enabling soldiers to indefinately hover high up while being able to spam deep into the chokepoints. Also just sliding on them in combat is kind of stupid. Using them to rocket jump or bomb or whatever is actually just useless, because doing normal wall jumps make your jumps A) faster and B) less predictable. It's only a gimmick and it is broken.

- There are too many hiding spots to clear when you are leaving from the spawn to the mid area. If your medic dies you can leave like 3 players hiding and there's no way your medic won't get forced/killed when you push in: Under the bats, on the bats, on the ramp on bats, behind the Z connector to point, under the bats, in the middle room with 2 shutters, on the silo, on the truck.

- The lowground area between the battlements and the ramps on point is ridiculously small and severely underpowered. You really can't do anything from there.

- There's too many flanks so you can't even partially prevent people to flank you. Bombing from both ramps, both siderooms, under the point, rampslide bombs on the point, just walking on the point. Another issue with this is that players going behind can hide almost indefinately.

- Too much health on the map imo. Product is a larger map and only has 4 medium and 1 small pack, while this map has 6 medium and 2 small. The damage you deal doesn't matter that much, because they can run and take one of the 6 health kits and come back in (and you don't know where they went).

Junnu the lord of crosshairs, once again saving the tftv peasants from open tier PraiseTheLord

Bawskee 2 dropped and bro every song's a banger

Flagship song imo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2ZLweJiL5Q&t=0s

Jordy... Just play like MGEMike bro and get 450 dpm... Honestly

:(

love u catbowcar, yo im so hyped for bawskee 2 lets listen 2 it together

yeah... im up next bro

any serious mapper use ramp or blockbullet their stairs (so they act like ramps)

NEW CONTROL POINT!
(and other stuff)

I succumbed to my desire to "improve" the map. Really could have done this a lot sooner but I'm dumb and stupid and dumb lol.

So the map is now officially split into 3 "valid" versions. If one becomes more popular or liked, I will discontinue the other versions.

rc1 = "release candidate 1", with the 2 second cap and old control point
rc2t = "release candidate 2 time", with the 1 second cap and old control point
rc2p = "release candidate 2 point", with the 2 second cap and new control point

(Dropbox) Download for both rc2 versions: LINK HERE

cp_prolands_rc1 -> cp_prolands_rc2t

- Set last cap time to 1 second.

cp_prolands_rc1 -> cp_prolands_rc2p

- Changed geometry behind point.
- Removed slanted ceiling behind point
- Removed all glass on point
- Moved the lamp in the tube further up (to prevent spamming from main)
- The rim below the glass that you could stand on is fatter
- The capture zone is adjusted to accurately be represented by the visual indicators
- Deleted the prop on point (in order to be able to open it up). A consequence is that you can no longer stand on top of it in the tube. I did not add a ledge to replace it, but it can easily be done.

SCREENSHOTS FOR RC2P: https://imgur.com/a/Oz6f22J

I have not updated the workshop as I don't know how to resolve the situation.
Also... stay tuned for a secret badlands-related project that I intend to release before the summer.

Hook me up for features, 10 refined each

EDIT: beats 8 refined each