Do that and I definitely will not be playing on the servers. I think DM servers are one of the best places to practice sniping. Sniper and Demo function perfectly in 5v5, so why are we blaming the class for the fault of the format? Nobody plays your servers because they're never populated, but why are they never populated in the first place? After watching half the other team leave when they were completely shut out on Process, of all places, I think I understand why. Did nobody ever consider that the eXtv servers are more populated because they're more fun for people who like to DM?

If you're going to take Sniper out you may as well take Demo out too, since he causes exactly the same problem. And if you're going to have just Scouts and Soldiers, you might as well make it into an MGE server. The entire point of DM as opposed to MGE is to play in a chaotic environment similar to a regular match's.

Do you even know what TF2F stood for? No? Alright, stop talking.

Remember when it was just unquestioned that demos should have 2 stickies max, sniper should be limited to headshots or banned, and 4v4 was just gospel?

Things were better then.

Is that for real? I'm never playing on another DM server again.

Well I already have an ammomod server, so that's out of the picture. I think you're grasping at straws here when you say extv severs are more fun for people who like to DM, as well as the rest if your argument. Sniper in a 4v4 situation is completely asinine and is a great disadvantage to the rest of the team. Perhaps if friendly fire was on it'd be a different story. Each server is made for different audiences, with the extv servers for people who don't care about anything. My audience is people who look for quality and support in their servers. I try to make my servers the best they can be for my audience. I don't need to cater to everyone.

You sound like SPUF. Next thing you're going to be telling me how absurdly overpowered the Shortstop is.

How do you decide that a class is useless in a mode with no goal. The only purpose of DM is practice. You're supposed to fight and you're supposed to die. Sniper does both just fine.

I don't know what TF2F stand for, but here's what I do know:

-The 4v4 servers aren't populated
-The 5v5 ones are
-Sniper and Demo don't function well in 4v4, but do in 5v5

Is it such a stretch to think that the functionality of Sniper and Demo just MIGHT have something to do with the popularity of the server? That's not even counting the other issues I brought up, since people don't agree with me. Though I think anyone who has played both will find them undeniably true.

The only reason I've heard as to why 4v4 is better is because there's less random spam. I say this is a null issue because it's unrelated to the purpose of DM. If you want less random spam go scrim.

I respect anyone who supports the community in any way, and you're absolutely right that I can (and will) continue to play on eXtv's servers. But your audience doesn't exist, Fog. Your servers are empty. Even a community effort only managed to fill one for a couple hours, if even that. Lack of population is a symptom, not the cause. If a server owner wants his server to be filled, he needs to offer something different, better, or in demand. But judging by the results, yours are none of the three.

I'm not trying to bash you, or anyone who prefers your servers. Really I'm not even trying to force you to change it. But you asked for suggestions, and everyone seems to bemoan the fact that your servers are never full, and this is what I think about it.

I hope you realize that I'll never increase my server to 10 slots for DM. I'll construct something better for a response when I'm not on my phone.

I prefer to practice sniping in dm, but if people want it removed I find it understandable.

Polls need to be integrated into this site. Go with what the majority of people want. Fog's or eXtv's servers? Sniper or no sniper? Right now all we have are plus/minus frags to understand what the majority of the population likes and a whole lot of useless back-and-forth arguing.

I like to snipe in DM when scouts taken, or shotgun sooldier. headshot only mod would be cool in offclass imo.

I'm in favor of this.

Keeping Fog's servers as 4v4 with no Sniper and limited stickies, and then having eXtv servers as 5v5, seems like the way to go so both sides get what they want, a great place to practice Sniper and mitigating player disadvantage of inferior classes.

Too bad eXtv doesn't care about their DM servers and won't implement a whitelist.

I know the subject of more DM servers has been shot down on principle for over saturating a thin player base, but if eXtv isn't going to fix their unlock issues, wouldn't it be better to have DM servers under someone who cares, like Fog? Maybe if there was an announcement on tf.tv and the eXtv servers were taken off the server list, there could be a forced migration or something.

Only time I like to snipe in DM is when there are only like 2 or 3 people in the server and I'm waiting for it to fill up. Honestly I think it's easier to practice sniping in pubs where you can actually go for headshots instead of being forced to play defensively in a clusterfuck of spam every second.

I'm sorry, but what I offer that eXtv has failed to offer is actual support for the servers, an actual item white list and a bunch of much needed DM balancing. To say that my servers are none of the three criteria for a server to be filled is completely ignorant of you, when I offer so much more than eXtv servers has ever have.

What you're practically saying is that to get the servers populated, I need to be exactly like the eXtv servers, which I completely disagree with.

Alleal is right, if the server isnt populated hes clearly doing something wrong

Sniper has always been a waste of time for everyone else in the server. Demos too but not nearly to the same extent and at least they actually get something out playing it. Please limit stickies :].

Fog is doing it right...the community is doing it wrong.

That is not what I am saying. I am saying that your servers must be one of the superior in management and content, completely different altogether, or an overflow option for when the other servers are populated.

Your servers are better maintained and managed, I agree with you. eXtv does a terrible job at that. But I think the problem exists on a fundamental level, down to the very core of the idea of 4v4. That is where the server is not superior, and that is the reason it is not filled.

I think 5v5 has:
-Better accessibility for lower level players
-Better functionality for Sniper and Demo (two very frequently played DM classes)
-Less stagnation due to team's skills

If even one of those is true, wouldn't that be the obvious answer as to why your servers aren't filled?

And frkn, saying that is a complete denial of all socioeconomic principles. Someone asked for a polling system, but we don't have one, so right now we vote with our attendance. Right now Fog has 0 votes.

What are the class restrictions like? 1 demo 2 soldiers 2 scouts?

The reason Fog's servers are empty isn't because they are any worse than eXtv's, it is because eXtv's servers were around first.

Its more like... why join a 0/8 server when there's a 8/10 one i can join? I joined the steam group for fog's servers so if people put announcements up i'll come. I'll even put up announcements myself if i get moderator for the group since I dm pretty much every night.

OCCUPY FOGS DM. SUPPORT THE CAUSE

yes i was just in there, and its still going. GO DM UNTIL YOUR EYES BLEED

Alleal, I'm not trying to sound like some jaded veteran telling you that you haven't been around long enough to understand what you're talking about.

But you literally have no fucking clue what you're talking about because you haven't been around long enough. What frkn said is 100% accurate, every decent player I've talked to has acknowledged eXtv DM servers as being objectively worse than the old SOAP servers and because of actual balance choices, player counts, and a lack of even remotely attentive management. As soon as the old SOAP servers died the AG and now eXtv take-overs have been progressively worse and are only populated because they became the standard for players by virtue that they were the only ones up. People would rather hop into a populated server than try to get a better one populated themselves while risking failure or a long wait. End of story.

Alleal, how does having it 5v5 over 4v4 give more accessibility to lower level players? The only accessibility differences are 2 people having to sit in queue to play in 4v4 server as opposed to if it were a 5v5. And the demo class functions perfectly fine in DM, and that's what people have a problem with. I don't think you actually understand why people have a problem with demo and sniper.

You shouldn't worry about any skill level imbalances there may be on either team. As you're well aware, it's a DM server. You practice your aim and maybe your movement too. DMing in a server where someone 20x better than you is on the other team doesn't mean you won't have the chance to practice. You only get better practicing against better players. This is something people don't seem to understand.

I would do anything to have the old DM servers back. Fog, you can make happen through your own servers, right? I believe.

@ Alleal

dm isn't extremely complex, just connect to the server and click on stuff

whether its 10 slots or 8 slots, sniper or no sniper its still dm. just play...or don't, whatever floats your boat there guy

What did the old DM servers have that I don't currently have?

ARENA_RAVINE

what on earth

@Kirby, The accessibility is in the higher randomness factor. A less skilled player has the opportunity to shoot the more skilled played when that more skilled player is distracted. It's the same principle as random crits, except this one encourages improvement. Learning to shoot a guy in the back helps you learn to shoot a guy in the face.

I understand the problem people have with Sniper and Demo. When I say functionality I mean functionality as a whole. This includes playing the class, playing alongside the class, and playing against the class. They don't work well in 4v4; this seems to be the consensus. But they work in 5v5, I know that from experience.

Skill disparity matters because skill disparity kills the server when it's 4v4. I cite my Process example again. The server died on that Process map. Half the other team left because they were completely restricted from utilizing the DM environment.

@frkn, I don't accept that as an explanation. If 4v4 is as superior as you all claim, then why aren't you playing on it? Because it's not populated. If Sniper and 5v5 are crimes against DM, then why do you play on the eXtv ones? Why do you tolerate the random spam, which everyone seems to consider bad enough to swap the functionality of two DM classes to avoid? The obvious answer is that it is tolerable. That the advantages of being on a 5v5 server (more players) is worth the disadvantages (random spam). Why there are more players is something we can argue all day and all night, But the fact remains that random spam is so minor a disadvantage that nobody can be troubled to make the switch.

Like the whitelist, incidentally. I'm all for a whitelist, but does anyone really care if someones running around with a huntsman? He dies the same as any sniper, and a death to him isn't any different than deaths to random spam.

@Azelff

It's common knowledge that Demo can't match up to Scout or Soldier in direct DM, just like Sniper. If you're going to ban Sniper from 4v4 because he's a disadvantage to a team in a mode with no objective, then you might as well ban Demo because he causes exactly the same problem.

Why am I not playing on it? Because I barely play tf2 anymore. I hopped in Fog's chicago server today when it was empty and it was full within 5 mins. The eXtv servers have been around for longer and have more people willing to join when empty because they will definitely fill up fast. If people take the time to join Fog's the same will happen.

Do you think startups replace current market leaders overnight without effort? No. The fact of the matter it is, it takes people willing to sit in an empty server for 5 minutes to make it happen. Sometimes nobody wants to do that. Doesn't mean the market isn't there.

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