When I started playing TF2, CTF was my favorite gamemode. Now it's push CP, after 1200 hours of refusing to accept that at the very least, tf2's CTF maps suck. Even in my other favorite arena shooters like Quake and Gang Garrison, CTF is at least viable for comp, but in TF2 it's basically dead. What's the reason? Is the gamemode just broken? (Chase the enemy flag carrier!) Are the maps just unbalanced with the "easy, long" routes too hard or risky to intercept? Is it the slow flag return? What gives? 5CP is so good, the meta is great and the maps are good (with some exception... :< fastlane) too. A/D payload works, even if it's bad without a high playercount. CTF in other games is a lot of fun, risking traded captures and cutting off the enemy team one way or another. In TF2 it's just bad, turning into a relatively disorganized DM shitfest. Why?
nonstandard (non5cp) maps just won't get the playtime needed to be fully and fairly evaluated because it's natural to avoid trying new things
I think it has to do with the fact that there's no movement gimmick (bunnyhopping/crouch sliding/etc). You can't really have a player swoop in and grab the flag to make a quick getaway and the intense flag chases are pretty much non existent. In TF2 CTF you pretty much have to just kill the other team and then walk in, grab the intel, and walk back to your base.
There's newer ctf maps that have been coming out. I think they are mostly geared towards highlander, but I think there's potential for 6v6. The main difference is that the way you cap has been changed a lot. For example, on ctf_vitalism, you bring the enemy flag to the center of the map, and they do the same (rather than bringing it back to your base), and you can't cap if the other team has your flag as well.
I don't remember the name of the other different ctf map, but in that one there is only one intel to be capped, and you have to cap it in your enemies base. Both of these have lead to some pretty entertaining gameplay for highlander, I feel like they aren't that far off from making it work for 6v6.
I don't remember the name of the other different ctf map, but in that one there is only one intel to be capped, and you have to cap it in your enemies base. Both of these have lead to some pretty entertaining gameplay for highlander, I feel like they aren't that far off from making it work for 6v6.
might be interesting if the rocket jumper is allowed
@TLR:
I think I agree with that, in a different sense, but I have to go on a tangent to explain why. So, GG2 is a lot like TF2, but less lethal with faster movement and shots are significantly easier to hit (provided you're not lagging). It has a pretty "lively" competitive 4v4 CTF scene certain times of the year (if you can call it that), and the biggest difference in it is how quickly someone can get from one flag to the other. On ctf_conflict, the community's badlands (here's a picture: http://bit.ly/OXbpKS), the time walking from one flag to the other, as a scout, is faster than the badlands demoman rollout, and after five seconds of running, unless the enemy team is camping your own base, you're home free. On top of that, matches usually last around ten minutes max (people complain when they're longer, in my experience). The flag chases are entertaining, to say the least, and watching an inexperienced medic detach from their team and manage to grab the flag from behind in a low level game, running through literally all four of their enemies without dying, told me a lot about how punishing it is to miss those few shots you have on the flag carrier, and even though the example is absurd, that's what CTF should be have and be about, nimble intel grabs and movement vs aim getaways.
Continuing on the differences between the two games (since I have the most experience with GG2's CTF) if I were to make a TF2 CTF map, I would probably balance it around 4v4, since that's what I have the most experience with in a TF2-like environment. It would be small enough for a scout to go from spawn to the middle in around eight seconds (spawn to flag in a over double/under triple that), and balance the paths so that there's no huge long flank that you can't get to from the main map (which seems to be the problem with most custom CTF maps in tf2). I don't like turbine a lot because it revolves around owning the center of the map, and unless the "losing" team takes it back they're at a disadvantage (it's like koth). For comparison, here's a breakdown of conflict's path structure (on top; the bottom was an example of a bad map): http://i.imgur.com/cOXKG.png
And here's turbine pro (made in five minutes): http://i.imgur.com/p2KlB.png
In turbine, each path branches, which prevents some gamebreaking choke holds, but at the same time it gives the defending team several (unmarked) opportunities to intercept the flag carrier, especially because of the map's architecture. With high playercounts (cough highlander) you can't really have one person swoop in at a little disadvantage and grab the flag with enough movement skill; they'll just get mowed down because TF2 lacks all-around special mobility. In conflict, there's lots of small opportunities for the defending team to intercept the carrier, but none of them are very strong, because the middle of the map can't be held with a deadlock (in anything from 4s to 6s anyway) and because of the low lethality and pace of the game, it's easy for your team to protect you at the most dangerous one, as long as you out-coordinate your opponents. I can see ubers used to protect the flag carrier instead of being used to break into the flag room, and I can see people skipjumping across the flag as demoman just to move it into the heart of their team, even if they get sniped down or killed otherwise. Of course, you do need chokepoints and tight turns to prevent relatively unfair stickyjumping escapes, but having too many lets people seize small advantages to totally shut down deserved capping. In turbine you can get halfway across the map with the flag, then you're almost guaranteed to die if the opposing team is alive and has a dime worth of a brain, and you've lost it because they can easily control the areas that you have to go through, and they don't even have to put up a fight.
I think I agree with that, in a different sense, but I have to go on a tangent to explain why. So, GG2 is a lot like TF2, but less lethal with faster movement and shots are significantly easier to hit (provided you're not lagging). It has a pretty "lively" competitive 4v4 CTF scene certain times of the year (if you can call it that), and the biggest difference in it is how quickly someone can get from one flag to the other. On ctf_conflict, the community's badlands (here's a picture: http://bit.ly/OXbpKS), the time walking from one flag to the other, as a scout, is faster than the badlands demoman rollout, and after five seconds of running, unless the enemy team is camping your own base, you're home free. On top of that, matches usually last around ten minutes max (people complain when they're longer, in my experience). The flag chases are entertaining, to say the least, and watching an inexperienced medic detach from their team and manage to grab the flag from behind in a low level game, running through literally all four of their enemies without dying, told me a lot about how punishing it is to miss those few shots you have on the flag carrier, and even though the example is absurd, that's what CTF should be have and be about, nimble intel grabs and movement vs aim getaways.
Continuing on the differences between the two games (since I have the most experience with GG2's CTF) if I were to make a TF2 CTF map, I would probably balance it around 4v4, since that's what I have the most experience with in a TF2-like environment. It would be small enough for a scout to go from spawn to the middle in around eight seconds (spawn to flag in a over double/under triple that), and balance the paths so that there's no huge long flank that you can't get to from the main map (which seems to be the problem with most custom CTF maps in tf2). I don't like turbine a lot because it revolves around owning the center of the map, and unless the "losing" team takes it back they're at a disadvantage (it's like koth). For comparison, here's a breakdown of conflict's path structure (on top; the bottom was an example of a bad map): http://i.imgur.com/cOXKG.png
And here's turbine pro (made in five minutes): http://i.imgur.com/p2KlB.png
In turbine, each path branches, which prevents some gamebreaking choke holds, but at the same time it gives the defending team several (unmarked) opportunities to intercept the flag carrier, especially because of the map's architecture. With high playercounts (cough highlander) you can't really have one person swoop in at a little disadvantage and grab the flag with enough movement skill; they'll just get mowed down because TF2 lacks all-around special mobility. In conflict, there's lots of small opportunities for the defending team to intercept the carrier, but none of them are very strong, because the middle of the map can't be held with a deadlock (in anything from 4s to 6s anyway) and because of the low lethality and pace of the game, it's easy for your team to protect you at the most dangerous one, as long as you out-coordinate your opponents. I can see ubers used to protect the flag carrier instead of being used to break into the flag room, and I can see people skipjumping across the flag as demoman just to move it into the heart of their team, even if they get sniped down or killed otherwise. Of course, you do need chokepoints and tight turns to prevent relatively unfair stickyjumping escapes, but having too many lets people seize small advantages to totally shut down deserved capping. In turbine you can get halfway across the map with the flag, then you're almost guaranteed to die if the opposing team is alive and has a dime worth of a brain, and you've lost it because they can easily control the areas that you have to go through, and they don't even have to put up a fight.
(went over the post length limit, jesus christ)
@vanilla:
I really, really don't like vitalism's design. It would be like a constant double-last-hold in 6s, probably with some alternate tactics. I can get the flag and cap it in ten seconds, which is way too fast for tf2; if you break through a turtle once you could probably chain a few caps with mild coordination. Honestly, mach4 has a pretty good design in comparison. I consider neutral CTF another gamemode, too, so I won't comment on that.
Loronix:
that thing can't even intel grab anymore
@vanilla:
I really, really don't like vitalism's design. It would be like a constant double-last-hold in 6s, probably with some alternate tactics. I can get the flag and cap it in ten seconds, which is way too fast for tf2; if you break through a turtle once you could probably chain a few caps with mild coordination. Honestly, mach4 has a pretty good design in comparison. I consider neutral CTF another gamemode, too, so I won't comment on that.
Loronix:
that thing can't even intel grab anymore
what if ctf maps were more open? that way you would avoid the necessity of having to kill the whole team in order to cap.
Most tf2 maps are still quit flat. They dont have rooms with several levels within them like quake maps or most good arena shooters do. That gives the carrier an option where to go.
Also the problem is that most tf2 maps or all of them haven't been made to consider 6s. If you think about 6s cookie cutter classes, even ignoring the medic, then maps would be more open and have several level to exploit projectile jumping and double jumps.
Most tf2 maps are still quit flat. They dont have rooms with several levels within them like quake maps or most good arena shooters do. That gives the carrier an option where to go.
Also the problem is that most tf2 maps or all of them haven't been made to consider 6s. If you think about 6s cookie cutter classes, even ignoring the medic, then maps would be more open and have several level to exploit projectile jumping and double jumps.
I think having an open two-level intel room like mach4's would be great. That map has a very good structure, it's a shame that the architecture mostly ruined it. Having quake-like suspended overhanging platforms on the outside of the base would be nice, and having some kind of small (smaller than a normal midpoint area) high ground with visible side- or through-paths in the middle should be good to prevent awkward spawn spam (2fort) and toostrong middle holds (turbine)
wareya(went over the post length limit, jesus christ)
@vanilla:
I really, really don't like vitalism's design. It would be like a constant double-last-hold in 6s, probably with some alternate tactics. I can get the flag and cap it in ten seconds, which is way too fast for tf2; if you break through a turtle once you could probably chain a few caps with mild coordination. Honestly, mach4 has a pretty good design in comparison. I consider neutral CTF another gamemode, too, so I won't comment on that.
Loronix:
that thing can't even intel grab anymore
Yeah, I definitely don't think vitalism would be good for 6s, it seems to have been designed with highlander or pubs in mind. I'm just saying that ctf is evolving from the classic 2fort style, and it could lead to more viable ctf options for 6s.
@vanilla:
I really, really don't like vitalism's design. It would be like a constant double-last-hold in 6s, probably with some alternate tactics. I can get the flag and cap it in ten seconds, which is way too fast for tf2; if you break through a turtle once you could probably chain a few caps with mild coordination. Honestly, mach4 has a pretty good design in comparison. I consider neutral CTF another gamemode, too, so I won't comment on that.
Loronix:
that thing can't even intel grab anymore[/quote]
Yeah, I definitely don't think vitalism would be good for 6s, it seems to have been designed with highlander or pubs in mind. I'm just saying that ctf is evolving from the classic 2fort style, and it could lead to more viable ctf options for 6s.
I think you should put the intel in front of or above the spawns. GG2 classic. ;)
there's never been a game with an exciting to watch ctf gamemode: all the action feels meaningless with very few caps over a long period of time. idk how tf2 used to do ctf, but most games had a timer which results in a lot of unneeded deadtime
pl and attack/defense both are capable of being tuned for 6v6 and are actually interesting/fun. would be cool to see more of them.
pl and attack/defense both are capable of being tuned for 6v6 and are actually interesting/fun. would be cool to see more of them.
I know you've probably never been exposed to it, but GG2's ctf is a lot of fun for me to watch. Of course it's not going to be a tactical masterpiece like watching 5cp is, but there's going to be plenty of entertaining flag grab attempts and combat tactics for some casual commentary. CTF is a naturally DM oriented gamemode, and that doesn't have to mean that it's boring and slow. But, there are push pull mechanics and attempted caps just like TF2's 5cp, and if I had to compare them then GG2's action is considerably more constant than TF2's thanks to faster spawntimes and there being no reason to hold stalemates. I feel like TF2's CTF could work the same way with a map designed around mobility and holding onto two paths instead of just one (turbine...).
For reference, here's a mid level video of one of gg2's best players in a 4v4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQwBm60Bjlk
It's probably one of the slower matches I've watched, because of the massive pussyfooting both teams were doing and the clutches he kept pulling when his team was dead, and the respawn times being too fast. The pussyfooting was because it went down to two caps very early with an unusually long time limit. The cap limit is high for an equal skill match, too, 5's usually for uneven footing. I know it's all tangential, but honestly I just don't think you know a lot about CTF to say that the action always feels meaningless with no exception; either that or you're bitter vs it for some reason. Used to large numbers of players in small maps?
I don't think you can speak for every game with CTF being boring to watch in general, either, as I absolutely love watching Q3/QL and TFC CTF. I just don't know enough about them to make walls of text like I already am about GG2.
For reference, here's a mid level video of one of gg2's best players in a 4v4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQwBm60Bjlk
It's probably one of the slower matches I've watched, because of the massive pussyfooting both teams were doing and the clutches he kept pulling when his team was dead, and the respawn times being too fast. The pussyfooting was because it went down to two caps very early with an unusually long time limit. The cap limit is high for an equal skill match, too, 5's usually for uneven footing. I know it's all tangential, but honestly I just don't think you know a lot about CTF to say that the action always feels meaningless with no exception; either that or you're bitter vs it for some reason. Used to large numbers of players in small maps?
I don't think you can speak for every game with CTF being boring to watch in general, either, as I absolutely love watching Q3/QL and TFC CTF. I just don't know enough about them to make walls of text like I already am about GG2.
2cthere's never been a game with an exciting to watch ctf gamemode: all the action feels meaningless with very few caps over a long period of time.
T
F
C
T
F
C
2cthere's never been a game with an exciting to watch ctf gamemode: all the action feels meaningless with very few caps over a long period of time. idk how tf2 used to do ctf, but most games had a timer which results in a lot of unneeded deadtime
pl and attack/defense both are capable of being tuned for 6v6 and are actually interesting/fun. would be cool to see more of them.
pl and attack/defense both are capable of being tuned for 6v6 and are actually interesting/fun. would be cool to see more of them.[/quote]
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4448925237510655150
Because tf2 ctf is based on defense and not pursuit. CTF when you're 8 on the playground is fantastic because of the crude tactics and raw speed. You're not spending ages dicking about with tactics, and to win, you either need to be a sneaky fucker or really fast. In tf2 you need to be slightly sneaky if there is no sentry, or you need to just hold and spam and slowly work into their base, and then run out with it. After a scout has it, there is no going back unless he is flanked. Even if you do manage to take him down, you can't hold the intel down for the 60 seconds it takes to go back to your base.
Another problem is that ctf needs to be very fluid to play well, and demos, heavies, engies, and medics slow down the game. A 2 scout 2 solly pyro sniper team might have some cool ctf matches. If the way to win is an early cap and then turtling the time limit while sending in a spy hoping for a lucky 2nd cap, then people will play that way.
If some high open or higher players wanted to do some ctf pugs with medic/engie/demo/heavy banned, I'd love to see some stv demos/streaming.
tl;dr tf2's intel mechanic is shit, and banning all 3 defensive classes+medic on ctf maps might help.
A touch-to-return mechanic for the intel would be great, but that will need changes from valve, best community mappers can do is 5 second return times.
Another problem is that ctf needs to be very fluid to play well, and demos, heavies, engies, and medics slow down the game. A 2 scout 2 solly pyro sniper team might have some cool ctf matches. If the way to win is an early cap and then turtling the time limit while sending in a spy hoping for a lucky 2nd cap, then people will play that way.
If some high open or higher players wanted to do some ctf pugs with medic/engie/demo/heavy banned, I'd love to see some stv demos/streaming.
tl;dr tf2's intel mechanic is shit, and banning all 3 defensive classes+medic on ctf maps might help.
A touch-to-return mechanic for the intel would be great, but that will need changes from valve, best community mappers can do is 5 second return times.
DouglasBecause tf2 ctf is based on defense and not pursuit. CTF when you're 8 on the playground is fantastic because of the crude tactics and raw speed. You're not spending ages dicking about with tactics, and to win, you either need to be a sneaky fucker or really fast. In tf2 you need to be slightly sneaky if there is no sentry, or you need to just hold and spam and slowly work into their base, and then run out with it. After a scout has it, there is no going back unless he is flanked. Even if you do manage to take him down, you can't hold the intel down for the 60 seconds it takes to go back to your base.
Another problem is that ctf needs to be very fluid to play well, and demos, heavies, engies, and medics slow down the game. A 2 scout 2 solly pyro sniper team might have some cool ctf matches. If the way to win is an early cap and then turtling the time limit while sending in a spy hoping for a lucky 2nd cap, then people will play that way.
If some high open or higher players wanted to do some ctf pugs with medic/engie/demo/heavy banned, I'd love to see some stv demos/streaming.
tl;dr tf2's intel mechanic is shit, and banning all 3 defensive classes+medic on ctf maps might help.
A touch-to-return mechanic for the intel would be great, but that will need changes from valve, best community mappers can do is 5 second return times.
idk abou tthat because i'm pretty sure i can use the rocket jumper in mge bball and still cap, i think it can be done to make touch-return happen :)
Another problem is that ctf needs to be very fluid to play well, and demos, heavies, engies, and medics slow down the game. A 2 scout 2 solly pyro sniper team might have some cool ctf matches. If the way to win is an early cap and then turtling the time limit while sending in a spy hoping for a lucky 2nd cap, then people will play that way.
If some high open or higher players wanted to do some ctf pugs with medic/engie/demo/heavy banned, I'd love to see some stv demos/streaming.
tl;dr tf2's intel mechanic is shit, and banning all 3 defensive classes+medic on ctf maps might help.
A touch-to-return mechanic for the intel would be great, but that will need changes from valve, best community mappers can do is 5 second return times.[/quote] idk abou tthat because i'm pretty sure i can use the rocket jumper in mge bball and still cap, i think it can be done to make touch-return happen :)
Saltysally1idk abou tthat because i'm pretty sure i can use the rocket jumper in mge bball and still cap
the fuck you smoking? I didn't say anything about the rocket jumper.
the fuck you smoking? I didn't say anything about the rocket jumper.
marmadukeGRYLLST
F
C
Yep, in TFC ctf was almost the only map played in pubs and it was one of the most fun to play. That's probably because tfc was mostly a teamed version of the half-life multiplayer mode so you only cared about DM.
But nevertheless, there were some classes like scout and medic that once they got the flag out of the base you could run away with it but it took a certain level of skill so it was fun and challenging.
I think that when valve designed the ctf maps for tf2 they didn't consider all the movement differences the classes got (2fort is the exact same map) and that's mostly why it sucks to play them.
There's yet to be made a good ctf map, having the capture point in the middle is a good idea, but I haven't seen yet a ctf map that would make me want to play it again.
F
C[/quote]
Yep, in TFC ctf was almost the only map played in pubs and it was one of the most fun to play. That's probably because tfc was mostly a teamed version of the half-life multiplayer mode so you only cared about DM.
But nevertheless, there were some classes like scout and medic that once they got the flag out of the base you could run away with it but it took a certain level of skill so it was fun and challenging.
I think that when valve designed the ctf maps for tf2 they didn't consider all the movement differences the classes got (2fort is the exact same map) and that's mostly why it sucks to play them.
There's yet to be made a good ctf map, having the capture point in the middle is a good idea, but I haven't seen yet a ctf map that would make me want to play it again.
alfunksomarmadukeGRYLLSTBut nevertheless, there were some classes like scout and medic that once they got the flag out of the base you could run away with it but it took a certain level of skill so it was fun and challenging.
F
C
It wasn't so much "running" away, it was more like flying away.
F
C[/quote]
But nevertheless, there were some classes like scout and medic that once they got the flag out of the base you could run away with it but it took a certain level of skill so it was fun and challenging.
[/quote]
It wasn't so much "running" away, it was more like flying away.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_qqFQF2p4M
2cthere's never been a game with an exciting to watch ctf gamemode: all the action feels meaningless with very few caps over a long period of time. idk how tf2 used to do ctf, but most games had a timer which results in a lot of unneeded deadtime
pl and attack/defense both are capable of being tuned for 6v6 and are actually interesting/fun. would be cool to see more of them.
quake 3 cpma
pl and attack/defense both are capable of being tuned for 6v6 and are actually interesting/fun. would be cool to see more of them.[/quote]
quake 3 cpma
i don't think ctf sucks (though it could be a lot better if it was touch return/3-5 second return), i think it's just the maps
Dave_2cthere's never been a game with an exciting to watch ctf gamemode: all the action feels meaningless with very few caps over a long period of time. idk how tf2 used to do ctf, but most games had a timer which results in a lot of unneeded deadtimequake 3 cpma
pl and attack/defense both are capable of being tuned for 6v6 and are actually interesting/fun. would be cool to see more of them.
cpma exemplifies exactly what im talking about...
my guess is tfc does too considering the huge numbers it was played at
the qw hook thing looked cool but I have nfi how to read that hud. i was looking for the caps in the whole vid. everyone's paper thin in that game, I can't see how O wouldnt just get repeatedly melted for 10 minutes until the stars align and someone finally brings it home
pl and attack/defense both are capable of being tuned for 6v6 and are actually interesting/fun. would be cool to see more of them.[/quote]
quake 3 cpma[/quote]
cpma exemplifies exactly what im talking about...
my guess is tfc does too considering the huge numbers it was played at
the qw hook thing looked cool but I have nfi how to read that hud. i was looking for the caps in the whole vid. everyone's paper thin in that game, I can't see how O wouldnt just get repeatedly melted for 10 minutes until the stars align and someone finally brings it home
2cthere's never been a game with an exciting to watch ctf gamemode: all the action feels meaningless with very few caps over a long period of time. idk how tf2 used to do ctf, but most games had a timer which results in a lot of unneeded deadtime
pl and attack/defense both are capable of being tuned for 6v6 and are actually interesting/fun. would be cool to see more of them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY6vZuCNX0Y&feature=relmfu
Matches could end (8 caps) in < 10 minutes if you were outright better than the other team.
pl and attack/defense both are capable of being tuned for 6v6 and are actually interesting/fun. would be cool to see more of them.[/quote]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY6vZuCNX0Y&feature=relmfu
Matches could end (8 caps) in < 10 minutes if you were outright better than the other team.
FREIGHT_TRAIN2cthere's never been a game with an exciting to watch ctf gamemode: all the action feels meaningless with very few caps over a long period of time. idk how tf2 used to do ctf, but most games had a timer which results in a lot of unneeded deadtime
pl and attack/defense both are capable of being tuned for 6v6 and are actually interesting/fun. would be cool to see more of them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY6vZuCNX0Y&feature=relmfu
Matches could end (8 caps) in < 10 minutes if you were outright better than the other team.
thats true for most ctf, but most people arent interested in watching a game where a team is outright better than the other
pl and attack/defense both are capable of being tuned for 6v6 and are actually interesting/fun. would be cool to see more of them.[/quote]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY6vZuCNX0Y&feature=relmfu
Matches could end (8 caps) in < 10 minutes if you were outright better than the other team.[/quote]
thats true for most ctf, but most people arent interested in watching a game where a team is outright better than the other
the point was that steamrolls are fast, not that they were supposed to be entertaining.
Regardless, I think starseige is incredible to watch.
Regardless, I think starseige is incredible to watch.
FREIGHT_TRAIN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY6vZuCNX0Y&feature=relmfu
Matches could end (8 caps) in < 10 minutes if you were outright better than the other team.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFWeGnONPu0&feature=player_detailpage#t=167s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY6vZuCNX0Y&feature=relmfu
Matches could end (8 caps) in < 10 minutes if you were outright better than the other team.[/quote]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFWeGnONPu0&feature=player_detailpage#t=167s