If there are no human shields can you please provide me the location of where Hamas terrorists reside? Where do they launch rockets from? Where are the military Hamas buildings? Where do they store their weapons and bombs? Oh wait, you can't answer these questions because the answer to them is Gaza civilian buildings so you have to mention random shit you found on twitter.

You deny Oct 7th because you saw a tweet about it and you never respond to anything I say. Do you even know what indiscriminate bombing is? Israel could wipe Gaza off the map if they wanted to. 20k deaths? It could be 500k in a week. Israel dropped 65k tons of bombs and killed about 20k people including militants (Hamas numbers). You really think they can't do better than that?

But they are almost always collateral damage because Hamas uses human shields.

Yeah, that's why Hamas should not use civilian buildings and human shields. I support this and so should you. Yet here we are.

I said reasonable.

I am not exactly pro-Bibi (although I do like some of his internal policies) so I don't know what that has to do with anything. Sharon was going to accept the peace deal until he got ousted. Arafat gave up on the Camp David Summit, which offered Palestine 91% of the West Bank, all of Gaza and more. This is somehow violence to you. Remember that in 2005 when Israel evicted its settlers from Gaza, Hamas took over and started bombing Israel. The problem the West Bank has its that it's a high ground and a much better bombing spot than Gaza. Why give that place to potential terrorists? It sounds completely fair to me that Israel thinks the people who just killed 700 civilians (for no purpose) and want to do it again could be a security risk. Peace talks are useless now imo, especially if Palestine insists on a crazy right of return. Action, or better said inaction by Hamas is required. They have to prove they are not barbarians.

Please learn the difference between terror, terrorizing and terrorism. These are very different things. It would be terrorism if settlers would attack, say people at a festival in Palestine. Oh wait.

I don't disagree that a historical understanding is required to solve this conflict. Let's assume Palestine is historically in the right (I don't know what this means. Jews deserving to be expelled or living as an oppressed minority under a Palestinian government?). This would still make Oct 7th a horrible attack - not too far from 9/11 in scale. This attack itself, differentiated from the conflict demands military action partly as did 9/11. What makes Oct 7th special (besides the magnitude, the recency and the fact that Palestine and Israel are technically not engaged in a full blown war) is that innocents were killed and raped without reason. They weren't collateral. It was not just fighting back. I wouldn't find much wrong with Hamas attacking Israeli military. It's war after all. When Israel bombs Gaza now, they have a supplementary justification to do it (besides the long history and attack-reaction repeat they have going on for decades) because their civilians were attacked mercilessly - and the whole reasonable world agrees.
I also think violence is definitely not helping Palestinians and a peaceful solution would be much more effective.

Hahahaha and people say I'm unhinged. I expected a lot of dumb things here but denying Oct 7th which there is massive video and witness evidence for I did not expect. Just shows how much some of you guys need to take a step back and look who you are agreeing with and think about your biases. If anyone is sheltered here, it is Westerners who cannot grasp the idea of a violent Middle Eastern group killing innocents and raping women because it goes against their strategic interests. Is it another Mossad false flag bro? Where is this magic bullet video evidence that shows the IDF did it? Just pathetic at this point. Take a breather. You're on the level of Holocaust denial.

get called out for justifying innocents getting killed and raped -> nonsensically respond once with tweet level religion rambling -> exit and claim you're getting baited
lol go back to twitter

Correct, but Oct 7th greatly improves the IDF's justification to bomb Palestine, which is why the attacks have ramped up massively after Oct 7th. All Hamas/Palestine have to do is not needlessly kill innocents and not bomb Israel for a few years to prove they are not violent barbarians and the whole world (or the only place that matters geopolitically, the US) will greatly improve their stance towards them and might even find a solution for this conflict. This is impossible for them.

Why you bring religion into this is beyond me. You spent the whole thread justifying terrorist actions because of "muh oppressors" while I instantly and completely deny all such violence from both sides (unless it involves bombing terrorists!). They are called terrorists because they commit terrorist actions (like killing and raping innocent festival goers on Oct 7th). It's 2024 and I can't wait for Hamas to get annihilated (with preferably no civilian casualties) because they are a 20th century terrorist group stuck in the 21st.

lol. are all your countrymen unable to defend their horrible posts?

I don't agree with illegal settlements or settler violence, but I still wouldn't call it terrorism per say, at least from what I read in the 2023 links (I don't care about 30 year old attacks). It's normal violence. If there was settler terrorism, I would also disavow that.

Some did, and they lost, as did (partly) Palestine. If it was justified back then I'd have to say it depends on the details. Justified today? Definitely not.

IDF. They fight and kill Hamas, and Hamas are terrorists. This is obvious. Hamas attacked civilians on Oct 7th and this is why they are now getting bombed.

Allies didn't care how many Asians the Japanese killed (pre 1945 Asia was a hellhole and everyone killed everyone). They declared war on Japan because of Pearl Harbor (really, it was in their strategic interest). Your "ratio of civilians killed to Hamas" applied to the Tokyo Fire Bombings does not look good given that they were specifically targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure. US didn't have to do that, given that Japan has a real working military, but Israel has to target civilian buildings because there are no military buildings in Gaza, so yes these two bombings aren't fully comparable but this does not help your case at all. Also, you keep switching your "proportionality" from Hamas vs Palestinian civilians and Israeli deaths vs Palestinian deaths. Which is it? I mentioned the Tokyo Fire Bombings because you said people shouldn't support Israel because they (accidentally) kill civilians.

Sure, more Palestinians died than Israelis. I agree. This doesn't mean Israel is necessarily wrong. Israel has a much, much better military, with military buildings. They don't hide in civilian buildings using human shields. This also means most innocent Israeli deaths can be easily avoided but Hamas have to kill and rape festival goers because they're barbarians.

I'm iffy on Iraq, and kinda support Afghanistan but that's beside the point, and the argument for these wars is more than just "they have terrorists". They're not comparable. Palestine is part of Israel. Something more comparable would be if a native american group wanted to own the US and started waging war and committing terror attacks (lol at any nutjob who would support this). Palestine-Israel conflict would probably still exist even if there was no Hamas terrorism (it would just make Palestine seem much better).

From the link:
in addition to the statistics provided by the Palestinian Health Ministry, its own figures include people who have been missing beneath the debris of buildings hit by Israeli air and artillery strikes for more than 14 days now, with very little hope of survival.
PHM-West Bank takes its casualty numbers from PHM-Gaza, which is controlled by Hamas. Not only are you giving me figures likely inflated by Hamas, but also inflated with people missing. Note that I do not claim these figures are necessarily wrong, but that we don't yet know for sure their true number. One thing about the PHM-Gaza figures we know is that they do not differentiate between civilians and militants.

What is the point of arguing about this when the ICC is currently investigating Israel? Why not wait for their independent conclusion? Are we that desperate to score political points for the in-group?

Settlers are not terrorists, no. I don't particularly agree with settlers being in the West Bank either. Doesn't mean Hamas is justified or that innocent settlers should be killed.

IDF does not just claim to fight terrorists, they actually do. The fact that you can support them despite collateral damage is obvious. This is believed by anyone who doesn't have an infantile view of war. The Tokyo fire bombings killed 100k civilians. You can still support the Allies.

The West Bank... also... has... terrorists.

I don't know if this is true. You provide no evidence for the ratio of dead civilians or why the ratio is too high. I don't trust Hamas data. There's a few unique things about this conflict: enemy uses human shields, no military buildings, dense population, one side much more technologically superior. How much do these matter? I don't know. The ICC is currently investigating Israel. I'll wait for that.

https://8values.github.io/results.html?e=42.3&d=57.2&g=61.3&s=50.6
I would most closely identify my politics with Javier Milei from Argentina or Lee Kuan Yew (RIP).

For a right wing specialised test see https://rightvaluestest.github.io/quiz.html

The take is not that strawman, it's that OP made a one sided thread not mentioning Oct 7th or Hamas at all. OP could be 100% right about everything and my criticism that he ignores any justification for why Gaza is getting bombed and the terrorist attacks by the Palestinian side, likely because all he has read about this is from tweets and he became blinded by ideological bias to please his in-group. Dehumanizing and not understanding why people disagree with you are clear evidence of this.
If children die in a war against terrorists, that obviously sucks. Doesn't mean you can't still support what the IDF is doing (destroying Hamas is great). Furthermore, a lot of Palestinian "civilians" support the IDF both ideologically and giving them shelter (Hamas is notoriously known for using civilian buildings and human shields; there are no military buildings in Gaza). Collateral damage is expected, to some unclear extent. Note that Save The Children data is based on the numbers from Palestinian Ministries of Health (Hamas) so their numbers need to be independently confirmed to be trusted.

nobody has posted anything to convince me they are yet