..Why did i feel like watching that match made me want more? It seemed more like it was an appetizer rather than a full course meal...though maybe since i'm slowly trying to get into comp (such as the videos and stuff, mainly a distance before i get that decision to try comp for myself) it might just be a result of the game mode itself.

Also that solobeN guy seems to have a lot of salt....a LOT of salt...

I'm gonna be completely civil here and despite my uneasiness about dropping back in here, i just want to make a suggestion of sorts.

I think the most issue with players and classes is that they end up getting the wrong upgrades, even when they read guides on what to upgrade and all that. They usually go with what they think its best and either it works or it doesnt.

I was thinking maybe at some point in a form of advanced class or something like that, if they would go through a wave by wave composition among the four missions in Two Cities. I would be curious to see how that would work and have a detailed opinion and discussions on what to upgrade for each wave based on experience and the wave itself. It would probably be interesting to see what works and what doesnt in those types of situations (and see if i'm actually doing something wrong).

That's uh..that's all i wanted to say...oh right, i forgot. I also wanted to apologize about my earlier actions. My intentions werent strictly malicious and i wasnt trying to attack anything in the forums or anyone in particular. Yes, i said a few things i probably shouldnt have said, letting my anger get the best of me, but i took some time to calm down and realize it was pointless to do so. This wasnt really my fight and i have no right to judge how others teach people in MvM when i end up doing the same thing on my own.

So to everyone on the forum, i wanted to say i'm sorry. I'm open to having civil discussions and will actually act accordingly instead of being a egotistical, self-centered, absolute idiot.

Everyone have a good night and happy MvMing.

Signed, CheesecakeRemix (Lord Helix)

I could say something about how Pepsi Max is delicious and it'll still get downvoted. They dont like me on this forum, basically.

I'll apologize if my posts seemed harsh, but i call it like i see it. Downvoted or not, i feel strong about my opinion, and my opinion is that despite the good intentions and the basic accomplishment it did for newer people, it doesn't seem to be as much of a game-changer as it should...again that's just me.

Downvote and bash if you like, they dont mean anything...

..I never said i knew more MvM than you...all i said was that it was too basic and maybe a bit of time (not even 5 minutes) of maybe explaining the virtues of some weapons and it would have been fine. The spy situation is debatable (its more of class potential vs skill level on that one) and that's fine.

I said numerous times that its designed for newer players, and it did its job...i just feel (opinion) that it just doesnt seem enough...and i tried to enter the class to see how it was in the beginning, but like most of the people who tried that i know, it wouldnt let us. If we had gotten in, we might have said something of a discussion topic. Since we were only able to watch it after the fact, our opinions might be seemed as bias.

There are some things we agree with and some things we dont agree with: i'm not disputing that and i dont feel like arguing with it. That's beside the point.

I honestly havent really heard of you, CeeJaey, or really watched your videos. I might have heard something about you with scorch shot pyro, and that's probably it. I watch others of course, so that could be an obvious reason as well.

I have no issue with high tours doing classes like this to teach newer and inexperienced ones...i have said that a few times...and i'm sorry most of the feedback is about how it was too basic.

Maybe if we could all have a nice discussion to where opinions wouldnt be dissected and bashed on both ends, we wouldnt seem like asshats all the damn time.

I'm just going to say this finally and be done with it.

Yes, the class is helpful to those who are willing to learn. As close minded as it seemed to be, it had some relevant information for those who are new to the game mode.

Yes, the game mode isnt what it used to be, especially when Two Cities came around and people played for loot rather than for the fun and experience, and i can live with that.

I only have about 50-60 combined tours, but in those tours, i've seen so many things. I've seen scouts upgrade their fan o war, soldiers maxing out damage on rocket jumper, tomislav heavies, engies at spawn, and pyros that die in one hit cause they dont know what aggro is.

Could they be taught? No one knows. That's the beauty of the human condition: the power to learn and the power of stubbornness.

Am i stubborn? Of course i am, i'm from Texas. That state is full of stubborn people, but i'm willing to learn.

Its not a matter of who can learn, its a matter of if they're willing to learn. If you get at least 10 people that looked at this stream and go "hey this is some good stuff, i should try that and get better", then your job is done. Congratulations, you helped someone in MvM. But that's the deal...its a basic help. That's how i see it.

The class is a way to show the Meta and some deviations in the case of new people playing MvM...and that's great. I'm not doubting it for a second...it just seems barren. I mean, yeah MvM has a lot of info that you have to cram into an hour or so, and if that was the case, i understand.

I'm rambling again so i'll try to finish this off: I'm done arguing. I'm not gonna put myself into a position or corner trying to defend myself or justify my posts because it doesnt agree with someone. I'm not like the people who could watch the stream and learn. I had to learn basically on my own. I asked for help on forums, i looked up guides, i stared at the wiki for hours on end while i filled a notebook (or two) with notes on classes, weapons, upgrade paths, and bomb paths for the sake of myself.

It got so nuts that i even had a few of my friends irl ask me for suggestions on certain situations. It took me over a year to consider Mecha Engine in my arsenal and now i end up getting invited to Expert games or into servers for custom missions that actually make you think.

The class is a viable situation to learn, but there is so much out there to take in that you never know where people are gonna actually learn from....that's all i have to say, sorry for the rambling nonsense...i had to get it off my chest. Its why i'm frustrated over this stuff...

All i said was that it was too general and that a little more clarity would have been nice.

Did i say i'm perfect? Hell no. There are times i do everything right and there's that one guy killing everything.

There's also a difference between those who want to learn how it works and those who have their head shoved far up their ass that they THINK they know everything and dont listen to other people trying to help them.

I have no issues willing to learn shit but some people go it their own way...if you read my earlier posts, i said the class is for what it is: a guide for new people to learn. Those who are more knowledgeable see it for what it is. Do i think its helpful for new people? Yes. Do i think there could have been more clarity on certain roles/weapons? Probably. Did i cringe when they got to spy? I dont even play it, but i couldnt watch it after that.

I spent time on my own looking up loadouts, class roles, and working on upgrade paths for myself so i could learn to improve and be able to possibly carry my team. Countless hours on my own looking this crap up, so maybe it does seem i have a superiority complex. I dont expect them to know everything, but to do their damn job. That's all i ask for. When you see two pyros on big rock unable to take on one tank, you're gonna get frustrated. When you see a team get stuck on the final wave of hamlet (that's right, the 3 tank wave) for 30 minutes, you're gonna get frustrated. You can learn everything and all that but it dont mean jack crap if the other 5 dont want to learn.

I'm getting into an argument on the internet, this is not how i wanted to spend my day.

I know you're a teacher and all that but i looked through the pastebin myself and considering i'm not as experienced as Eye or most others here, this is my perspective.

Its too general. That's right. the bloody lesson plan is too bloody general. I'm gonna go through this class by class.

Scout: Ok this i can somewhat agree with since i'm still considered a meta scout. The loadout i go with is soda popper, milk, and fan, for obvious reasons. With the soda popper, i can have multiple jumps which helps me skip jump height for a wave or two (before i realize mannhattan's a butt with the walls), and we know what the other two do. The problem is that i've seen so many scouts forgo resistances, maxing out their milk early (even if no super scouts), that its counterproductive.

Soldier: General info would have been more useful in this situation. Usually the most primaries they go for is Black Box (Heal Per Hit, though nerf or fixed, idk), Stock, or Beggars. Beggars is usually more DPS on tap fire rather than barrage due to trying to aim per rocket verses taking a crap shoot on 3 rockets with the deviation. Also with the hidden game stat of firing speed for Beggar's, that's what most will go for. The banners would have been more precise in explaining.

Conch: Healing and Speed Boost (35% health gained based on damage)

Buff Banner: Mini-Crits within a given radius

Backup: 35% resistances on all fronts, 50% sentry resistance, negates mini-crits and crit hits.

And only ONE rocket specialist on ANY rocket launcher. One is all you need, and those who get more than that are just wasting it. Also please dont clip size on beggars..seriously.

Demoman: Only thing i have here is that crit stickies are overrated.

Heavy: I'm actually an advocate Natascha user cause i dont trust my team with super scouts, plus with the 20% bonus resistance, its a good tanker. As long as you're up close, damage is damage.

Demo/Heavy Tank note: Contrary to popular belief, Demo/Heavy/Engineer basically have around the same DPS on tanks (based on full firing speed, etc) though the Engi gets an one up if Wrangler is involved. I've seen so many times of "Demo and Soldier on tank" that its ridiculous.

Pyro: Phlog for tanks, Backburner for mainly mannhattan. Resistances are nice, but one of Pyro's main attributes revolves around aggro: if the bots cant see you, you cant get hit. Its an amazing thing.

Engineer: i dont really have much to say, its about spot on.

Medic: Dont play the class that much, i just know people have gotten used to it.

Sniper: Jarate is nice, but Cozy Camper makes me steady.

Spy: I dont play the class either but i know its power potential, lord knows i've seen it from Eye.

(Its more of a how we want to play and what works for us rather than trying to make the other see our views. I'm honestly being as nice as i possibly can right now cause i dont want to seem like a douche. I tried to read everything i could on this game mode to be informed and i dont finish as many tours as i should because i'm tired of dealing with randoms with crappy upgrades and even crappier attitudes all because they want shiny pixels)

Here's the thing about the MvM Subforum...yeah most of them are pretentious a**holes and what not, but its mainly because they know what they're doing and get annoyed when day after day, week after week, there are idiots flooding in about meta and "i got kicked for no reason" and what not.

I'm not saying the class was all bad, dont get me wrong, but there were just a few things that threw me off a bit, mainly about Pyro.

If they had done their research, they would have known that airblast was "fixed" when the scorch shot bug got fixed as well, but they went on and said that pyro can airblast giants back. Uh no they cant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7v_uGxfMnzE (as you can see here, he has max airblast on...yeah its definitely pushing the giant back. you can see that the giant has to be in a certain running animation to have some semblance of airblast, but that's with max force)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_r1wfAqv8w (this is a giant heavy. you remember airblasting these back? Yeah look at it now)

Now of course, steel gauntlets and normal bots are fine, but now instead of having to airblast giants, the pyro can be more of a damage class than "Pyro is only good for airblast durr"

I could go on through the video of the class and see what else is wrong, but i dont feel like it.

The class is mainly designed for those new to MvM, that's it. Those who are more knowledgeable in the game mode see it for what it is. If there's an advanced MvM course, i rather take it from the MvM subforum than here...that's all i'm going to say about it.