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MAJOR TF2 update for 6/18/14 (6/19/14, Love & War)
601
#601
5 Frags +

In other news, CSGO is on sale

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heh
In other news, CSGO is on sale

[spoiler]heh[/spoiler]
602
#602
1 Frags +
TwilitlordYou guys keep yelling at each other I'm gonna be over here having fun with my parachute

Demoparachute is pretty fun. Stickying up the chokepoints from midair is a neat strat.

[quote=Twilitlord]You guys keep yelling at each other I'm gonna be over here having fun with my parachute[/quote]
Demoparachute is pretty fun. Stickying up the chokepoints from midair is a neat strat.
603
#603
19 Frags +

It's early days, I'm going to try a few things and see what can be worked out. We tried heavy today as we felt it would be hard to kill the heavy and be more stable for the team. It probably won't be a constant showing until we try more stuff.

There's a potential that the demoman could be a utility class, this doesn't upset me that much as I love playing this game anyway and I enjoy playing all classes.

I understand people being mad as it's VERY frustrating to play at the moment because we have all been used to the same thing for 7+ years.

It's early days, I'm going to try a few things and see what can be worked out. We tried heavy today as we felt it would be hard to kill the heavy and be more stable for the team. It probably won't be a constant showing until we try more stuff.

There's a potential that the demoman could be a utility class, this doesn't upset me that much as I love playing this game anyway and I enjoy playing all classes.

I understand people being mad as it's VERY frustrating to play at the moment because we have all been used to the same thing for 7+ years.
604
#604
1 Frags +

2 demos scotish resistance let's go. dont know why anybody would want 2 demos in the game.

2 demos scotish resistance let's go. dont know why anybody would want 2 demos in the game.
605
#605
8 Frags +
VaskieTF2 is about team play, yet a change to a weapon of one class is making people talk about the end of competitive play. Get a grip.

It's honestly great to see that some higher level players in both America and Australia are taking it cool and moving on, it's an evolution, and it might not even be a permanent change, Valve could possibly reverse.

Yet.. we see Epsilon playing a pcw without a demoman whatsoever and instead playing with a heavy. With attitudes like that, of course people will be flinging shit and be scared the meta is gonna change.

Your first point in this segment I quoted is totally backwards. A change to one weapon of one class is so huge precisely BECAUSE this game revolves so much about team play; the entire team dynamic changes, and as I've argued already, not in a good way.

Why should people "take it cool" when the idiots at valve do more to ruin a competitive game they clearly don't understand well at all? Certainly they understand it much worse than most actual competitive players do.

I don't know why you're saying Epsilon have an "attitude" problem for running a perma-heavy on viaduct. Maybe permaheavy on viaduct is really good now that demos can't outspam them easily, ever think of that???

[quote=Vaskie]TF2 is about team play, yet a change to a weapon of one class is making people talk about the end of competitive play. Get a grip.

It's honestly great to see that some higher level players in both America and Australia are taking it cool and moving on, it's an evolution, and it might not even be a permanent change, Valve could possibly reverse.

Yet.. we see Epsilon playing a pcw without a demoman whatsoever and instead playing with a heavy. With attitudes like that, of course people will be flinging shit and be scared the meta is gonna change.
[/quote]

Your first point in this segment I quoted is totally backwards. A change to one weapon of one class is so huge precisely BECAUSE this game revolves so much about team play; the entire team dynamic changes, and as I've argued already, not in a good way.

Why should people "take it cool" when the idiots at valve do more to ruin a competitive game they clearly don't understand well at all? Certainly they understand it much worse than most actual competitive players do.

I don't know why you're saying Epsilon have an "attitude" problem for running a perma-heavy on viaduct. Maybe permaheavy on viaduct is really good now that demos can't outspam them easily, ever think of that???
606
#606
-6 Frags +
mustardoverlordnot in a good way.

it's been changed for 18 hours, it's kinda hard to make a call on that yet

[quote=mustardoverlord]not in a good way.
[/quote]
it's been changed for 18 hours, it's kinda hard to make a call on that yet
607
#607
13 Frags +
flameSaltysally1dude you're saying what some of us have been arguing this whole time, now demo is better off going for risky plays like a roamer and the roamer will be more passive. You flip your arguments around to suit your need to be correct or something it's really frustrating trying to follow your statements.
Demo is still a massive damage dealer, you cant suicide as demoman just because your stickies do less damage. Your medic and scouts aren't gonna be like LOL STICKIES JUST WALK THROUGH THEM.

The game shifted toward the scouts and soldiers now to follow up more efficiently on the lessened damage, and change their playstyles to compensate for this change.

I'm not arguing that the game isn't different, I'm arguing that there is no reason to be panicking or calling the demo 'underpowered' or 'gimped'

He still locks down chokes, He still does huge damage, but everyone else needs to adapt as well.

My point is that this patch effects every class (soldier scout medic) moreso than it directly effects the demoman.

You're just talking out of your ass at this point.

"Demo is still a massive damage dealer". Have you seen ANY fucking logs??? Demos are bottomdamaging or barely outdamaging 1 or 2 players.

"follow up more efficiently on the lessened damage". What damage? Like I said, a huge amount of a demo's damage (minus everyone's favorite aspect of demo, roller spam) will just be totally worthless, not capable of being followed up on efficiently at all.

"He still locks down chokes." I thought the whole (shortsighted) pro-update argument was that he doesn't lock down chokes anymore.

"He still does huge damage." Again, you're full of shit.

You are right that this update affects every class as well; it makes them all a lot easier from a gamesense point of view. That's what tf2 needed, right? Fewer players with good positioning, comms and teamwork and more MGE allstars?

[quote=flame][quote=Saltysally1]
dude you're saying what some of us have been arguing this whole time, now demo is better off going for risky plays like a roamer and the roamer will be more passive. You flip your arguments around to suit your need to be correct or something it's really frustrating trying to follow your statements.[/quote]

Demo is still a massive damage dealer, you cant suicide as demoman just because your stickies do less damage. Your medic and scouts aren't gonna be like LOL STICKIES JUST WALK THROUGH THEM.

The game shifted toward the scouts and soldiers now to follow up more efficiently on the lessened damage, and change their playstyles to compensate for this change.

I'm not arguing that the game isn't different, I'm arguing that there is no reason to be panicking or calling the demo 'underpowered' or 'gimped'

He still locks down chokes, He still does huge damage, but everyone else needs to adapt as well.

My point is that this patch effects every class (soldier scout medic) moreso than it directly effects the demoman.[/quote]

You're just talking out of your ass at this point.

"Demo is still a massive damage dealer". Have you seen ANY fucking logs??? Demos are bottomdamaging or barely outdamaging 1 or 2 players.

"follow up more efficiently on the lessened damage". What damage? Like I said, a huge amount of a demo's damage (minus everyone's favorite aspect of demo, roller spam) will just be totally worthless, not capable of being followed up on efficiently at all.

"He still locks down chokes." I thought the whole (shortsighted) pro-update argument was that he doesn't lock down chokes anymore.

"He still does huge damage." Again, you're full of shit.

You are right that this update affects every class as well; it makes them all a lot easier from a gamesense point of view. That's what tf2 needed, right? Fewer players with good positioning, comms and teamwork and more MGE allstars?
608
#608
5 Frags +
flameSaltysally1flamethe return of enigma engi mid on badlandswhy didn't you respond to mustard's book?
Because theres nothing to be said.

The game isn't ruined. His points about soldiers becoming overpowered is not true. The game wasn't made for a triforce of classes to be countering eachother.

Scouts can kill soldiers, scouts can kill demomen. Scout is the most 'overpowered' in 1v1 with overheal assuming movement, aim, terrain, etc.

Saying that demos needed to be the counter to soldier is just not true. Im not even sure what point he's trying to make. Soldiers aren't going to become this unkillable tank just because demomen aren't pumping out an AOE 800 damage per clip.

Scouts will be able to get maybe 1-2 more shots off before dying now, as will roamers, and pockets are going to have to do more. Nobody is unkillable, its just everyone is in a sense 'tankier' as a result.

This doesn't ruin the game. It shifts its gameplay mechanics, which again, does not make it 'broken' or 'imbalanced'

I'd even make a case that this might be a better time to run kritz because it'll be easier to live through ubers just with regular heals.

So many different parts of this post make it very clear that you basically skimmed my post(s) without even trying to comprehend what I was saying.

[quote=flame][quote=Saltysally1][quote=flame]the return of enigma engi mid on badlands[/quote]
why didn't you respond to mustard's book?[/quote]

Because theres nothing to be said.

The game isn't ruined. His points about soldiers becoming overpowered is not true. The game wasn't made for a triforce of classes to be countering eachother.

Scouts can kill soldiers, scouts can kill demomen. Scout is the most 'overpowered' in 1v1 with overheal assuming movement, aim, terrain, etc.

Saying that demos needed to be the counter to soldier is just not true. Im not even sure what point he's trying to make. Soldiers aren't going to become this unkillable tank just because demomen aren't pumping out an AOE 800 damage per clip.

Scouts will be able to get maybe 1-2 more shots off before dying now, as will roamers, and pockets are going to have to do more. Nobody is unkillable, its just everyone is in a sense 'tankier' as a result.

This doesn't ruin the game. It shifts its gameplay mechanics, which again, does not make it 'broken' or 'imbalanced'

I'd even make a case that this might be a better time to run kritz because it'll be easier to live through ubers just with regular heals.[/quote]

So many different parts of this post make it very clear that you basically skimmed my post(s) without even trying to comprehend what I was saying.
609
#609
-4 Frags +
mustardoverlordWhy should people "take it cool" when the idiots at valve do more to ruin a competitive game they clearly don't understand well at all?

Hate to break it to you, but the number of competitive players is almost negligible compared to all of the public players. Valve didn't make this update because they intentionally wanted to bone competitive Demos, it's because we're not a big enough blip on their radar to care. The competitive game has been made from what Valve gave us, it's not like they gave us any competitive tools to begin with.

[quote=mustardoverlord]Why should people "take it cool" when the idiots at valve do more to ruin a competitive game they clearly don't understand well at all?[/quote]

Hate to break it to you, but the number of competitive players is almost negligible compared to all of the public players. Valve didn't make this update because they intentionally wanted to bone competitive Demos, it's because we're not a big enough blip on their radar to care. The competitive game has been made from what Valve gave us, it's not like they gave us any competitive tools to begin with.
610
#610
3 Frags +
eeemustardoverlordnot in a good way. it's been changed for 18 hours, it's kinda hard to make a call on that yet

It's possible to know enough about this game to effectively theorycraft without weeks, months, years of playtesting.

Valve doesn't know enough about this game to do so. I have confidence that (some) competitive players do.

[quote=eee][quote=mustardoverlord]not in a good way.
[/quote]
it's been changed for 18 hours, it's kinda hard to make a call on that yet[/quote]

It's possible to know enough about this game to effectively theorycraft without weeks, months, years of playtesting.

Valve doesn't know enough about this game to do so. I have confidence that (some) competitive players do.
611
#611
-9 Frags +

Didn't everyone like the QF at first too lol?

ur just buttblasted lmao because something changed

Didn't everyone like the QF at first too lol?

ur just buttblasted lmao because something changed
612
#612
0 Frags +
BRZmustardoverlordWhy should people "take it cool" when the idiots at valve do more to ruin a competitive game they clearly don't understand well at all?
Hate to break it to you, but the number of competitive players is almost negligible compared to all of the public players. Valve didn't make this update because they intentionally wanted to bone competitive Demos, it's because we're not a big enough blip on their radar to care. The competitive game has been made from what Valve gave us, it's not like they gave us any competitive tools to begin with.

That's my whole point in (somewhat) supporting a promod, and in at the very least not sucking valve's cock when it comes to game balance. Why should we care what they think or rely on their support when they do so little for us? People say we need the constant stream of pub players, but that stream is totally miniscule compared to the amount we could have if valve gave a shit. Maybe a really well-made promod, with spectator tools, custom huds/cfgs, lobby integration, better weapon balance, custom maps, tabs for competitive news and streams, and built-in access to teamfortress.tv as a community hub would attract pub players too. Maybe, while many fewer pub players would make the switch, a larger percentage of them would actually move onto playing comp.

Maybe extreme measures have to be taken to keep a 7-year old game alive.

[quote=BRZ][quote=mustardoverlord]Why should people "take it cool" when the idiots at valve do more to ruin a competitive game they clearly don't understand well at all?[/quote]

Hate to break it to you, but the number of competitive players is almost negligible compared to all of the public players. Valve didn't make this update because they intentionally wanted to bone competitive Demos, it's because we're not a big enough blip on their radar to care. The competitive game has been made from what Valve gave us, it's not like they gave us any competitive tools to begin with.[/quote]

That's my whole point in (somewhat) supporting a promod, and in at the very least not sucking valve's cock when it comes to game balance. Why should we care what they think or rely on their support when they do so little for us? People say we need the constant stream of pub players, but that stream is totally miniscule compared to the amount we could have if valve gave a shit. Maybe a really well-made promod, with spectator tools, custom huds/cfgs, lobby integration, better weapon balance, custom maps, tabs for competitive news and streams, and built-in access to teamfortress.tv as a community hub would attract pub players too. Maybe, while many fewer pub players would make the switch, a larger percentage of them would actually move onto playing comp.

Maybe extreme measures have to be taken to keep a 7-year old game alive.
613
#613
30 Frags +
eeemustardoverlordnot in a good way. it's been changed for 18 hours, it's kinda hard to make a call on that yet

They just halfed the damage output of an important stock weapon, without community feedback, after seven years.

[quote=eee][quote=mustardoverlord]not in a good way.
[/quote]
it's been changed for 18 hours, it's kinda hard to make a call on that yet[/quote]

They just halfed the damage output of an important stock weapon, without community feedback, after seven years.
614
#614
24 Frags +
eeeDidn't everyone like the QF at first too lol?

ur just buttblasted lmao because something changed

The same people who liked the qf (div 4 retards and, for some reason, Classic Mixup) are advocating for this nerf. They were wrong there and they are wrong here.

[quote=eee]Didn't everyone like the QF at first too lol?

ur just buttblasted lmao because something changed[/quote]

The same people who liked the qf (div 4 retards and, for some reason, Classic Mixup) are advocating for this nerf. They were wrong there and they are wrong here.
615
#615
-2 Frags +

QF should be unbanned imo, its not a bad/broken weapon at all. Heavies are just awful.

On a side note, the Back Scatter is essentially a scattergun with less shots (no spread negates the -20% accuracy) that sometimes hits minicrits (tf2 still has bad back detection)
wasnt even very good in dm lol

QF should be unbanned imo, its not a bad/broken weapon at all. Heavies are just awful.

On a side note, the Back Scatter is essentially a scattergun with less shots (no spread negates the -20% accuracy) that sometimes hits minicrits (tf2 still has bad back detection)
wasnt even very good in dm lol
616
#616
-10 Frags +

You guys are bitching over nothing because nothing is going to change.

Learn to adjust around the changes by altering heal spread, weapons, classes, or whatever you guys need to do in your respective format to be most successful as a team. If this change had happened only 6 months after release, this wouldn't be a big deal and everyone would have easily adjusted to it without any bitching whatsoever. I personally feel this is how the Sticky Launcher should have been at the start of the game's release, I am happy Valve finally took the steps to balance its offensive usage.

This patch isn't going to kill the game, it's only going to change it, learn to adjust.

You guys are bitching over nothing because [b]nothing[/b] is going to change.

Learn to adjust around the changes by altering heal spread, weapons, classes, or whatever you guys need to do in your respective format to be most successful as a team. If this change had happened only 6 months after release, this wouldn't be a big deal and everyone would have easily adjusted to it without any bitching whatsoever. I personally feel this is how the Sticky Launcher should have been at the start of the game's release, I am happy Valve finally took the steps to balance its offensive usage.

This patch isn't going to kill the game, it's only going to change it, learn to adjust.
617
#617
-15 Frags +

if ur gonna shit on div 4 ppl for having stupid opinions and being worse than u, doesnt that mean mix& can shit on u and ur opinion is worthless and trash etc haha

if ur gonna shit on div 4 ppl for having stupid opinions and being worse than u, doesnt that mean mix& can shit on u and ur opinion is worthless and trash etc haha
618
#618
4 Frags +
BRZmustardoverlordWhy should people "take it cool" when the idiots at valve do more to ruin a competitive game they clearly don't understand well at all?
Hate to break it to you, but the number of competitive players is almost negligible compared to all of the public players. Valve didn't make this update because they intentionally wanted to bone competitive Demos, it's because we're not a big enough blip on their radar to care. The competitive game has been made from what Valve gave us, it's not like they gave us any competitive tools to begin with.

How are pubs improved when the demo becomes much worse at actually pushing while sticky traps remain just as good? Heavies, too, they don't get punished for just staying revved forever in the same spot. Demos and Heavies are the damage dealers of pubs as well as Highlander. I don't see what's going to be different - pub players are going to find themselves which a much slower game when they eventually stop fucking taunting for hours on end.

[quote=BRZ][quote=mustardoverlord]Why should people "take it cool" when the idiots at valve do more to ruin a competitive game they clearly don't understand well at all?[/quote]

Hate to break it to you, but the number of competitive players is almost negligible compared to all of the public players. Valve didn't make this update because they intentionally wanted to bone competitive Demos, it's because we're not a big enough blip on their radar to care. The competitive game has been made from what Valve gave us, it's not like they gave us any competitive tools to begin with.[/quote]

How are pubs improved when the demo becomes much worse at actually pushing while sticky traps remain just as good? Heavies, too, they don't get punished for just staying revved forever in the same spot. Demos and Heavies are the damage dealers of pubs as well as Highlander. I don't see what's going to be different - pub players are going to find themselves which a much slower game when they eventually stop fucking taunting for hours on end.
619
#619
36 Frags +

Can't wait for scrims tonight! My first impressions of last night's games were that teams had to be a lot more intentional with positioning and teamfights generally drag out much longer. Shifting a team's spam capabilities to 75% demo/25% soldiers to more of a 50/50 spread is really interesting considering roamers are still the best class to have on flank. It's also very interesting to see how teams manage their heals now, as scouts are generally still the best to get pocketed during these drawn out fights.

Midfights are one of the biggest changes now. Feels like 2009-2010~ era midfights, although mids were headed that way before this nerf regardless. Demos are now commonly putting up carpets or traps and sitting on them unless they're running the targe, in which case they can get pretty creative with how they want to approach midfights (use the shield tanking ability to charge in, or play the spam game with the damage reduction?)

I think lots of demos will probably shift to targe/SR depending on their playstyles. This is the biggest change to a comp class since gunboats were unbanned and completely changed roamer's playstyles, and I expect this change to do the same to demo. Lots of soldiers quit over gunboats, and the same will happen for the new demo class. Attempting a reactionary "promod" (or tftrue cvar) is the fastest way to kill the game, and I hope that no league actively implements it.

Can't wait for scrims tonight! My first impressions of last night's games were that teams had to be a lot more intentional with positioning and teamfights generally drag out much longer. Shifting a team's spam capabilities to 75% demo/25% soldiers to more of a 50/50 spread is really interesting considering roamers are still the best class to have on flank. It's also very interesting to see how teams manage their heals now, as scouts are generally still the best to get pocketed during these drawn out fights.

Midfights are one of the biggest changes now. Feels like 2009-2010~ era midfights, although mids were headed that way before this nerf regardless. Demos are now commonly putting up carpets or traps and sitting on them unless they're running the targe, in which case they can get pretty creative with how they want to approach midfights (use the shield tanking ability to charge in, or play the spam game with the damage reduction?)

I think lots of demos will probably shift to targe/SR depending on their playstyles. This is the biggest change to a comp class since gunboats were unbanned and completely changed roamer's playstyles, and I expect this change to do the same to demo. Lots of soldiers quit over gunboats, and the same will happen for the new demo class. Attempting a reactionary "promod" (or tftrue cvar) is the fastest way to kill the game, and I hope that no league actively implements it.
620
#620
-1 Frags +
4812622How are pubs improved when the demo becomes much worse at actually pushing while sticky traps remain just as good?

Oh, did people think I was defending pubs or the update at all? That'd explain the -frags. No, that wasn't the point.

[quote=4812622]How are pubs improved when the demo becomes much worse at actually pushing while sticky traps remain just as good?[/quote]

Oh, did people think I was defending pubs or the update at all? That'd explain the -frags. No, that wasn't the point.
621
#621
0 Frags +

i actually think it promotes more teamwork than before. With it being easier to go through chokes, and pockets sitting at 300 hp, that puts a lot more focus on everyone on your team shooting the same people and comming effectively.

you can be salty cause the easiest class in the game got a little less easy but its a good change imo

i actually think it promotes more teamwork than before. With it being easier to go through chokes, and pockets sitting at 300 hp, that puts a lot more focus on everyone on your team shooting the same people and comming effectively.

you can be salty cause the easiest class in the game got a little less easy but its a good change imo
622
#622
21 Frags +
Air_you can be salty cause the easiest class in the game got a little less easy

Medic got nerfed too? :^)

[quote=Air_]you can be salty cause the easiest class in the game got a little less easy[/quote]

Medic got nerfed too? :^)
623
#623
33 Frags +

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-APZJhrTOFEY/TwZgJeIBUAI/AAAAAAAACm0/URQzg4E2wdM/s400/stages-of-grief.jpg

[img]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-APZJhrTOFEY/TwZgJeIBUAI/AAAAAAAACm0/URQzg4E2wdM/s400/stages-of-grief.jpg[/img]
624
#624
7 Frags +
SeagullAttempting a reactionary "promod" (or tftrue cvar) is the fastest way to kill the game, and I hope that no league actively implements it.

Im glad etf2l put a stop to it.

Your text to link here...

[quote=Seagull]Attempting a reactionary "promod" (or tftrue cvar) is the fastest way to kill the game, and I hope that no league actively implements it.[/quote]

Im glad etf2l put a stop to it.

[url=http://etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-29496/page-1/#post-502432]Your text to link here...[/url]
625
#625
2 Frags +

At this point ive already accepted it and im eager to tryout the targe strats and gameplay.

At this point ive already accepted it and im eager to tryout the targe strats and gameplay.
626
#626
2 Frags +

Just to be clear, what is the status of the new items in ESEA? CEVO?

Just to be clear, what is the status of the new items in ESEA? CEVO?
627
#627
7 Frags +
SeagullMy first impressions of last night's games were that teams had to be a lot more intentional with positioning and teamfights generally drag out much longer.

Midfights are one of the biggest changes now. Feels like 2009-2010~ era midfights, although mids were headed that way before this nerf regardless. Demos are now commonly putting up carpets or traps and sitting on them unless they're running the targe

Am I supposed to find the good part in this? Because nothing in this seems good to me...

Whether you like it or not the tf2 metagame at the moment is much more polished and interesting to watch than it was in 2009 and honestly these long midfights, and demo playstyle doesn't really bring me any joy.

I really can't see any way this nerf can benefit the actual 6v6 and HL metagame. All the things I have looked at so far indicate it will only indirectly make the game more drawn out, slow paced and boring, with possibly bringing heavy back into the meta. Please kill me now if people think that's the way to go.

[quote=Seagull]My first impressions of last night's games were that teams had to be a lot more intentional with positioning and teamfights generally drag out much longer.

Midfights are one of the biggest changes now. Feels like 2009-2010~ era midfights, although mids were headed that way before this nerf regardless. Demos are now commonly putting up carpets or traps and sitting on them unless they're running the targe[/quote]


Am I supposed to find the good part in this? Because nothing in this seems good to me...

Whether you like it or not the tf2 metagame at the moment is much more polished and interesting to watch than it was in 2009 and honestly these long midfights, and demo playstyle doesn't really bring me any joy.

I really can't see any way this nerf can benefit the actual 6v6 and HL metagame. All the things I have looked at so far indicate it will only indirectly make the game more drawn out, slow paced and boring, with possibly bringing heavy back into the meta. Please kill me now if people think that's the way to go.
628
#628
0 Frags +

any one else think were gonna see a lot more offclassing now? i think a good sniper can do about as much as a targe demo.

any one else think were gonna see a lot more offclassing now? i think a good sniper can do about as much as a targe demo.
629
#629
4 Frags +

nah

nah
630
#630
0 Frags +

we'll see snipers to mid if the parachute gets in thats for sure

we'll see snipers to mid if the parachute gets in thats for sure
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