junemofu
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Signed Up October 28, 2012
Last Posted May 16, 2024 at 1:03 AM
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ⋅⋅ 97
#204 nerf pyro in TF2 General Discussion
Cyanicwhy are we still arguing with 4812622 when it's clear he either has never played competitive tf2 at any reasonable level or he has 20IQ and doesn't understand how it should take skill to frag someone.

I don't understand why pubbers and Steel players are trying to play the "you don't have enough competitive experience" card on me.

Hunter_2_0Why are you so desperate to defend pyro?

He adds nothing to the game.
He's not skillful or fun to play with/against.

Pyro's existence can only make competitive tf2 worse.

This shit is as ridiculous as the hysteria back in HRG days when people were blaming the slow metagame on Heavy and Engineer and calling for class limit 0. Offclasses are not uncounterable or broken, they are good for the game. Turtle classes help ensure the dynamism of 6s is preserved by mitigating the heavily unfavorable situation of being stuck on last with Uber disadvantage after wiping on mid. 5CP is good because both teams at any moment have so many options, have to make so many decisions. Pyro is a huge part of being able to defend against a full Uber push into last and the ability to clutch a round from the jaws of defeat makes the game exciting and fun both to watch and to play.

It's not as cut and dry as saying that Pyro slows down the game, either. Certain stalemates that are incredibly difficult to break, like Viaduct forward hold, pushing Granary second, and pushing Gullywash / Blands last, can be broken by running Pyro. This speeds up and freshens the metagame. What's more, the inability of Pyro to effectively hold chokes because of bad range provides opportunities for smart teams to push whereas they wouldn't feel comfortable doing so against a Scout or Soldier, because they are better.

And out of these niche situations, Pyro is still really fucking bad. It is significantly harder to play Pyro full time and win at a high level than Scout and Soldier, which is probably why nobody has done it. Outside of holding last, running Pyro means you're giving up consistency, flexibility, and raw power, which is a huge risk and easily punishable. If you read your opponents tendencies to make mistakes and take the risk of going Pyro instead of staying on the consistently good and almost always better standard classes, and it actually pays off, then that is skill.

Restricting classes alienates your playerbase. Back when I was a pubber, over half my friends who were interested in competitive TF2 were turned off of 6s by a perceived state of staleness and inflexibility and ended up losing interest because pubs and Highlander are boring. My first 6s team had two Pyro mains, a Heavy main, and a Sniper main, but we realized that those classes were inflexible and bad and became fully-fledged 6s players. These are the people who you are turning away from 6s by banning Pyro, and you'll never realize how hard you fucked the playercount because nobody will be here to tell you about it.

Last and least, I personally find reaction reflecting (predicting when they shoot because they're too close to react) to be one of the most challenging and satisfying things in TF2. There are so many things about Pyro, like reflect jumping, or finding new detjump flanks and hiding spots, or maximizing damage per particle, or the Dragon's Fury / Jetpack, that make it so even the best Pyros haven't approached the skill ceiling. I enjoy outplaying people by doing suboptimal, unorthodox things, and I enjoy specifically fighting Pyros as projectile classes because of the psychological intensity that reflecting brings to the matchup.

I understand that there many 6s players who don't share my opinions. Disagreeing with me is fine, but what frustrates me is when people disagree with me and dislike Pyro because they either don't understand or refuse to attempt to understand. There are people in this thread who are arguing that the only counters to Pyro are Sniper and other Pyros, that they win every other matchup. There are people who are arguing the Dragon's Fury is too strong. These things aren't just differences in opinion, they are flat out, factually wrong. So, so, laughably, utterly wrong.

I want to ensure that the hysteria in this thread doesn't spill out of control, and lead to the whitelist getting fucked because ignorant people are consumed with fear of things that they do not understand.

So if anyone wants to actually discuss anything, instead of restating their opinions, flat out telling me I don't know what I'm talking about without a tenth of my experience or any evidence, and posting gifs of confused people, let's do it.

posted about 6 years ago
#196 nerf pyro in TF2 General Discussion
Apt*pyro phlogs and ubers onto last point from underneath*

*literally forced to run at it or they lose because when the uber ends its gonna start a 2x cap*

"wtf why didnt you hold s thats how pyro is countered"

???

I already responded to this, but I'll do it again.

Let's think this through.

No, you do not press S when you have a better Uber, because Uber makes you immune to flames, and flames are why you are pressing S.

The mistake was the Medic dropping the chasing defending Pyro, which not only killed the defending Pyro, let the Medic and Phlog Pyro live when they should have died (the Degreaser Pyro can lock the Phlog Pyro into the corner so there was no chance of the Phlog Pyro escaping), but it gave up Phlog charge, which culminated into pressuring the defenders into dropping onto point and abandoning high ground and distance.

Was the Phlog counterable? Yes.

Did the defending team fuck up? Yes.

Did they deserve to lose because they fucked up? Yes.

People need to start blaming themselves for making stupid plays instead of finding some scapegoat to salvage their pride. I guarantee if anyone in this thread watched a demo of every time they died to a Pyro, they would immediately realize that either Soldier / Scout could have done the same thing better, or that they could easily avoided dying had someone (including themselves) not fucked up, or both.

posted about 6 years ago
#191 nerf pyro in TF2 General Discussion

LMAO did you just look up "fallacy" on wikipedia and expect it to completely shut down the conversation?

What is my misrepresentation of your argument?

And I have no idea where you're going with the fallacy fallacy attack. I never once claimed that people were wrong because they made bad arguments. I claimed things (Pyro is not overpowered, Dragon's Fury is not overpowered, Detonator is not overpowered), backed them with reasoning (limited range and speed and bad matchups vs almost every class, inferior to and more difficult than stock, a scapegoat for actually pressing issues), and countered people's arguments against me, which involves pointing out fallacies.

Nowhere did I say that "because your committed a logical error, I am right." Rather, the logical error means that your criticism of my argument is invalid, and you have to either make a new argument, or cede the point.

I can list logical fallacies too. This is directed at everyone in the thread, not you in particular.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_the_stone - dismissing a statement as absurd without giving proof of its absurdity

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule - an informal fallacy which presents an opponent's argument as absurd, ridiculous, or humorous, and therefore not worth consideration

The examples of this are myriad. Jon_ saying "Yikes." viper / pov's gifs of confused people. Jon_ sarcastically admitting I'm right.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasty_generalization - an informal fallacy of faulty generalization by reaching an inductive generalization based on insufficient evidence

This is showing that video of prem players getting rolled over by Phlog and using that as conclusive proof.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum - a proposition must be true because many or most people believe it

That's you.

posted about 6 years ago
#187 nerf pyro in TF2 General Discussion
TwiiKuulets get this str8 because ur not understanding.
its not fun.
thats not objective but its a shared opinion of 90% of the community at this point.
even pubbers fucking hate it.
it just isn't fun to play and to play against anymore.
do you know what we do with unfun things?
we ban them, that's why we have a whitelist, that's why we have class limits, that's why we have a map pool, because the best way to play the game isn't the fun way to play the game.

Yeah, I definitely remember our community's ancient, sacred tradition of polling Steel players and consulting r/tf2 on whether we should ban stuff.

posted about 6 years ago
#6 powah: "I'm happy to see that the scene keeps in movement somehow" in News

woo go ninjax!!

posted about 6 years ago
#184 nerf pyro in TF2 General Discussion

There is a difference between an argument and an opinion. Despite the fact that Jon_ played one season of UGC Steel, their argument matters. Their opinion does not.

When Jon_ says "Yikes" and refuses to respond to 90% of my argument, he is not arguing, he is stating his opinion - "I disagree." Which, again, doesn't matter.

posted about 6 years ago
#182 nerf pyro in TF2 General Discussion
Jon_Hold up lemme make my name bold encase you didn't see it Jon_

https://i.imgur.com/rFnmyH7.png

Doughyviper is right, the class is fundamentally bugged. You can see in the gink video of him playing on gully, it flashes up with a "criticals 20-39 damage per particle". Well, since particles can hit more than once, this is not true at all. If this was the case, it would be more forgiving in terms of damage, and people would feel like they can outplay it.

I never said the Flamethrower isn't broken, I said there are copious methods of counterplay. I don't understand how that is a controversial statement.

This is main reason why pyro should be banned imo. From a competitive point of view it hinders player improvement/skill comparison, which is never good for a competitive game. It does this by forcing players to relearn how to play the game with the bug, and then forcing them to relearn how to play the game without it after the bug gets patched. This is why competitive games like league of legends disable characters with bugs until they are fixed (dependent on how gamebreaking it is).

There is nothing wrong with forcing players to adapt to new change, but if you force players to have to adapt too often, or too much in one leap, it massively hinders how you can compare skill from one player to another. Which is largely the point for competitive games, people want to compete against others and compare their skill levels.

This is untrue for multiple reasons. First, it's most likely working as intended. Second, the counter to Pyro has always been walking backwards, checking corners, Scout, Shotgun Soldier, other Pyros, Demoman, Heavy, Engineer, Sniper, for as long as airblast has existed.

Whether or not you agree that the leap was too big or not is ones own opinion, however there should be no disagreeing that pyro should be fixed in terms of the bugs it has, and the unclear visuals protruding from the flamethrower.

I agree.

Valve tends not to release updates too often for this game, so I don't have faith the bugs will be fixed anytime soon. That means it is on us as a community to fix the problem. The simplest, most viable solution right now is class limit 0.

What makes you think the new Flamethrower is a bug? When stickies were glitched to have no falloff it was patched in a day. This is at least that bad and it's been months.

Whilst pyro has it's place in the game and there is a lot of cool stuff you can do with it, the forced use of unlocks and raw dps of the class make it not only unenjoyable, but much worse for the strategy of the game

Forced use of unlocks? Full stock is 100% viable to hold last, which is, apart from Gullywash, the only viable time to play Pyro. Furthermore, the only stock loadouts that aren't outclassed to some extent are Demo, Sniper, and Spy. Claiming that Pyro should be banned because you have to use unlocks doesn't make any sense.

here are only two counters to pyro right now. One is a sniper with darwins danger shield, the other is a better pyro.

Please don't tell me you actually believe this.

If you actually do believe this, I have a question for you.

Where are the undefeated high Invite Pyros?

I remember when wee booties got nerfed because if one demoman ran them, the other had to as well.

This is utterly irrelevant on multiple levels.

First, I agree the Flamethrower should be changed.

Second, Booties were never banned, so making this comparison proves my point.

Third, by this logic, Gunboats, Escape Plan, and Crossbow should be banned because they are mandatory to get to mid.

Very similar scenario here since you can't always oneshot a 260 health machine running at you surrounded by a cloak of flames.

You don't need to oneshot a Pyro because you can completely negate it by pressing S.

posted about 6 years ago
#175 nerf pyro in TF2 General Discussion
Jon_Did you just try to compare medic and pyro? I guess if this is the mentality of some tf2 players I can see no wonder why the pyro is the way it is right now. Oh well.

The argument is that Pyro's skill to reward ratio is too high. Medic has a higher skill to reward ratio. I don't understand your issue. You keep making statements of incredulity instead of actually responding to arguments.

People like you are probably the reason why we haven't gotten an update yet, the TF2 team probably are patting themselves on the back right now. Saying "Hey vJill did you know the players are just loving the new pyro! Just take a look at this post from 4812622!"

I'm pretty sure I said I didn't like Jungle Inferno flamethrower in every post I made.

And you know what. You're right, from now on am gonna check corners like crazy and learn to play around a class that can out dps a heavy. Thanks 4812622.

I don't understand. You haven't even tried to learn to play around it? The update has been out for months, and you're still just mindlessly zombie-ing around playing exactly the same way? And you're fucking proud of your ignorance, and demand the devs balance the game around it?

I'm honestly curious. Are you satirizing the type of person who posts in this thread?

(also seriously who the fuck are you)

viperquit trying to argue that the class that is literally broken because particles from all its primary weapons double hit and do way more damage than intended isnt actually broken

Yes, the flamethrower is broken. It is not overpowered and should not be banned.

posted about 6 years ago
#173 nerf pyro in TF2 General Discussion
funhaver1998medics not op in pubs lol that shit is dependant on the people who the medics are healing and they have to be a cut above a pubber in order to make it effective.

Medic isn't overpowered? Please don't tell me you honestly believe that.

Ceteris paribus the team with 50% more HP WILL win. The lowest common denominator of Soldier, Pyro, or Heavy, while pocketed, can kill an entire team streaming in ones and twos.

it really has gotten to the point where if the guy isnt someone skilled enough to play competitive, the person with the top score and highest impact on the game is 100% of the time a pyro because they are having the same impact on shitty pubbers as actual players and everyone of those 24 ppl are capable of the same shit, but playing it now is seen as a tryhard option or some shit. if someone gets pissed off that they're dying a lot, they go pyro because its seen as stupidly op. there shouldn't ever be a class that consistently top scores in a pub.

Now you're talking about score in pubs? You realize every extinguish is worth one point, right?

Also, I'd just like to reiterate that I do not give a single flying fuck about the easiest way to get on the scoreboard in casual mode.

i haven't played a pub where multiple ppl haven't complained about it like this monthish. so if the updates not working for pubbers and by the overwhelming backlash on the forums, who is it working for? u and olgha i guess but no one else likes this shit at all.

Who the fuck cares about the opinions of pubbers, and for that matter, who the fuck cares about the opinions of the lowest common denominator of competitive player? Balancing for pubbers gave us the sticky nerf, horribly broken Scout/Sniper secondaries, and Medics moving at Scout speed. No league should poll SPUD or r/tf2 to figure out their whitelist, because they're not qualified, because they have no experience, and therefore, have no fucking clue what they're talking about.

how could thalash of countered being melted in 0.1 secs there? just not being there at all i guess cause it took like 0.1 seconds to kill him so even if he was at bitch boy range he still would of died

Scout walks at 133% speed.

Pyro walks at 100% speed.

ur point about the first clip is debatable too there are other members of the team is most likely why the medic flashed

It doesn't matter. Dropping the Heavy doesn't matter if you get a Medic and Pyro for it. The Heavy can also just take an arrow as the Medic is walking forward with the Pyro. If the rest of the team loses a 4v4 while holding last with a Heavy and 3 spam classes while the attacking team's Uber does nothing, then that's on them fucking up and iatgink could have won running stock flamethrower, and probably by friendly disguising as Pyro.

and even if the pyro did end up killing gink's medic its not like its impossible gink could of done the same shit he killed like 3 people

It's much harder without 260. A 175 Pyro without airblast can comfortably be spammed from high ground. A 260 Pyro getting tanked without airblast is threatening enough to force people to drop to point, potentially, and then you've negated their height advantage and their range advantage. Also, the Phlog spree only happened because the Heavy donated full charge to the Pyro.

The only way Phlog works is if someone fucks up and walks into the Phlog. Whatever what-if scenarios we're conjuring up that will never change.

that demo was on da facking beam and got to shoot like 2 pipes and then died even though he was looking at him the whole time and all gink had to do was wiggle his mouse and walk at him but yet hes killing faster than a scout 2 shotting at point blank range

Yes, the Phlog is very good at killing people who walk into it when it has crits. You're supposed to stay out of flamethrower range.

Olgha@June I hope to see you one day :D I may be attempting to go next rewind with couple of friends

come to rgb in october :3

posted about 6 years ago
#165 nerf pyro in TF2 General Discussion
Jon_So you are looking me dead in the eye right now and saying that this is completely okay? And that we should just "get good" or "watch corners".

Obviously. Do I need to type slower or something? Did you read any part of the post before responding?

I don't care about the fact that he's offclassing or the fact that I should or shouldn't understand its the simple fact that all he did just simply, walked, held m1 and won.

You realize that Medic is literally the same thing, except 2x better and 10x harder to counter, right?

He even got invulnerability at some point just by simply clicking m2. Do you not realize how crazy that is? Some classes have to wait for that invincibility/crits you know, but nope pyro gets crits as well as invulnerability and to make matter worst he wasn't even using his primary it was his secondary.

You do realize you have to charge the Phlog, right? Has anyone fucking glanced at any of the unlock descriptions?

Being stuck doing nothing for 2 seconds is a downside, not an upside, invulnerability or not. You can't leverage the invulnerability to do anything. You can block a choke, but you'll waste your phlog and you can do that with airblast much better. You can stall a point, but they can just juggle you into the air and cap before you hit the ground.

And I have no idea what you're talking about with the secondary thing, the only crits I saw in that video were Phlog crits unless you're talking about 23 damage Detonator minicrits.

Plus in other situation he gets to travel at mock 10 because of the powerjack.

It's barely faster than Medic, over 20% slower than Scout, and only worth doing out of fights because of damage vulnerability, and because you can't shoot and sprint at the same time. Trying to argue that the Powerjack makes Pyro too mobile is utterly ridiculous.

And just look at what @funhaver1998 said about thalash getting d_destroyed in less than a a couple of seconds.

I addressed this in my post. I also didn't mention that Scout is faster than Pyro and he tried to leave through the right stairs instead of dropping off the balcony to lower lobby, but in fairness to Thalash, he probably expected his spam classes to juggle the Pyro that can't airblast.

You and olga need some help tbr its ridiculous to think both of you are trying to justify this class in its current state. I know people are entitled to their own opinion but just wow.

Who are you?

posted about 6 years ago
#162 nerf pyro in TF2 General Discussion

I didn't say I thought it was okay, I said it's easily counterable if you use your brain, and shouldn't be banned.

Is everyone who complains about Pyro talking about pubs? Yes, the Flamethrower is overpowered for players at the skill floor. So are Medic and Engineer. The skill floor is irrelevant for competitive play.

posted about 6 years ago
#160 nerf pyro in TF2 General Discussion
Jon_this

0:03 Sniper isn't on danger shield even though Pyro is telegraphed (we know they know he's on Pyro because his Phlog is at 80%)

0:34 BLU Medic drops Pyro for no reason. The RED Medic was 100% dead if the BLU Medic stayed with his Pyro, because the Phlog can't airblast and he failed to bodyblock.

0:45 Heavy walks into flame range near a corner for no reason. Also Tomislav is suboptimal for fighting a Pyro on Gullywash last, and I'm 90% sure he switched to Heavy to fight the Pyro.

1:09 Scout takes over 100 damage from a Phlog Pyro top right and presumably calls Pyro position, and yet BLU Medic doesn't use Uber around the corner while walking into flamethrower range, for no reason

1:46 Demo blows all his ammo and abandons the choke. Soldier also abandons the choke. If either of them were lookint at the choke they could have easily juggled the Pyro to death. Also, the Demo somehow forgot the Pyro was top left and walked into flamethrower range. (the Uber trade got nothing).

I don't understand why you are linking this video when it is literally proving Olgha's point. 6s players do not understand offclassing or unlocks, and instead of learning, they bitch.

You see, you say this as if pyro is balanced and okay in its current situation. Let's take a quick glance at heavy, he isnt a very mobile class and is used on last to defend points at times. He also has great dps if you somehow get him in the right situation. Now, lets focus on a key factor here, his mobility. Heavy is the slowest class in the game and worst when he is spun up so that way he can't just whip out the GRU and then proceed to mow people down (plus his primary weapon has damage fall off). Now lets compare pyro in his current state, he can do the roughly the same if not more damage than the heavy whilst going at twice the speed with no damage fall off whatsoever.

Heavy has significantly better range and is stronger vs hitscan and other Pyros. Running a Heavy vs Pyro on last is literally just up to map geometry - how hard the Pyro gets fucked by his shitty range. Or you run a passive Pyro to reflect spam, but you could always do that, and it's worse of a tactic now because of Degreaser nerf.

Also, the Flamethrower does have falloff.

Frankly I stopped reading after you said "use your brain" because am certain pyros aren't using theirs. But anyway I get what you're saying on checking corners but the thing is that I think you're missing the point that even if I didn't check the corner I shouldn't have to be pushed into a corner like am on a damn ice rink then flame'd to death within the span of 15 seconds. Like if I get ambushed by a scout for example I have a chance of a comeback and I know it.

Now shoo and go back on reddit.

Spy and Demo have the same instant punishes for being an idiot. Tomislav Heavy as well. They aren't banned because despite how sad you may feel, you can avoid the scenario easily by playing properly, it is counterable. So stop complaining and check the corner.

posted about 6 years ago
#155 nerf pyro in TF2 General Discussion
gemm@olgha he's not an ambush class any more, he's literally a walk into you and you die unless you're a scout and you're far enough from him. but even then it's very annoying because of the fire particles. yes you CAN play around a pyro and counter him reasonably effectively at high level but it's very aids to do so, and slows the game down since you have to play a bit further away from chokes

How can a Pyro get in flame range without ambushing you?

You can literally push/pressure off the fact that one of their players is on a useless class. Most of the time, Soldier slows down the game more than Pyro because it is actually capable of holding a choke without committing.

As for Uberstalling specifically, Pyro is obviously better, but airblast is actually significantly worse than it once was and flames still don’t work on Ubered people and we were fine with it before Jungle Inferno. Counterplay to wiping on mid without killing med is good for the game, and Pyro is still easily beatable with full ad.

unlocks such as the detonator and scorch shot dont have any real counterplay except playing faster rather than taking the slow fight

Pressuring a team with Detonator Pyro is almost always a good play unless you’re already losing a fight for some other reason, in which case, Pyro is worse than standard classes because their shit range/speed means they can’t capitalize on advantages as quickly without reflect rocket jumping. They are almost completely defenseless against weapon heckling and only have 8-10 airblasts before becoming walking paperweights.

posted about 6 years ago
#135 nerf pyro in TF2 General Discussion
Just because something is bad doesn't mean it cannot have some broken aspects of it.

Yes, that's true, but if something is a straight downgrade to the stock weapon while simultaneously being more difficult to use and punishing mistakes much harder, then it should not be banned, and nobody should be bitching about it.

The Phlog (and Pyro as a whole) is a perfect example of that. Pyro cannot airblast with the weapon but is given the ability to increase his damage even further even without a kritz Medic.

The Phlog is not broken in any aspect except for animation canceling the taunt. It is a very, very shitty weapon.

But then theres the aspects that most people agree on that Pyro has shit survivability

See, when I said most people don't know what they're talking about, this is the sort of thing I mean. In terms of survivability, Pyro is second or third best, behind Scout and maybe Soldier. Pyro is immune to projectiles if the shooter isn't close to him, and can push anything in his face away from him with airblast, fucking up their aim and momentum, while also being really annoying to hit because you can't see anything through the stupid flame animation.

and his only way of dealing damage is being right in your face. And the fact that he has rarely any ranged capabilities outside his flare gun, which to utilize effectively requires someone to be on fire, which is what you're supposed to be doing. Pyro in it's current state is complicated, and because of the Jungle Inferno changes it put him even further into a more complicated state.

This is basically right. The Detonator and Scorch are actually really good at long range, but their mid-range damage is nonexistent. Meanwhile, Shotgun is worth running in short-mid range. You only get to pick one, and because Pyro is so slow, the enemy team that is not running Pyro gets to control the distance at which your teams are fighting, which means you should be fighting at a range you suck at fighting.

But yeah, I do mostly agree with this. Pyro is garbage with broken elements. I feel like people are forgetting what is broken about the Pyro. The stock flames are far too easy to hit and do stupid amounts of damage considering that. That's not going to change no matter how many unlocks you ban. Pyro will still be annoying when you're pushing into last and when holding Gullywash last, and it will still be garbage when you're not doing those things.

So please, just walk backwards and don't feed him rockets, instead of banning random unlocks.

ILLEGALELEPHANTGUNto make such a major adjustment to one of the nine classes now, this late in the games development, is just laughable and totally wrong.

This isn't a great attitude to have. You shouldn't dislike change on principle. You should dislike change because it leaves the game worse than it was before.

Jungle Inferno flamethrower is one of the worst changes they've made to the game. But it's not because it's different, it's because it's fucking dumb. We need to make sure we're looking past our instinctive hatred of change so we can provide accurate criticism and ensure the game we play is as fun as possible.

posted about 6 years ago
#130 nerf pyro in TF2 General Discussion
hamburger_crisisHaving that knowledge gives you the feeling that it is easy to hit

This makes no sense. if something is easy to hit then it's easy to hit. If you need knowledge to hit something then it isn't easy to hit.

And furthermore, judging by it's design it is supposed to be used passively due to every other flamethrower out DPSing it.

Incorrect, it is impossible to play passively with this because it has shit range, slow switch speed, and shit airblast. You want Stock for maximum airblasts and afterburn, or Degreaser for fast switch speed, or Phlog for maximum idiot killing power, if you plan on playing passive or flexibly as a Pyro. This thing is literally only good for W+M1 and hiding around corners. You can't even stall Ubers with it.

You cannot use the Dragon's Fury aggressively especially against other Pyros because of the burst damage it does compared to the broken flail 2 win design on every other flamethrower.

It's actually pretty good against Pyros because of the slightly longer range and most Pyros don't have the reflect timing down because nobody runs it because it's fucking garbage. That's one of the better things about it.

But yes, flames are obviously better at killing things because they are much easier to hit than the Dragons' Fury (I'm happy to see you agree with me about that now) while also doing much more splash damage. Also, you're harder to kill with projectiles because of the threat of airblast, while the Dragon's Fury has large periods where you can't airblast, and you need to hold down m1 to keep faster firing rate, which means Soldiers and Demos feel safe blowing you up.

Despite that it's a passive weapon, I believe it should be harder to aim with rather than make it's hitbox over half the size of the Scout's player model. If this is what Valve intended, for this weapon to be used passively then I can see your point of it being shit, but Pyro doesn't always have to be offensive to be viable if balanced correctly.

I...why would Valve want you to play passive with a flamethrower that can't airblast or charge Phlog off of Detonator spam? What the fuck are you talking about?

posted about 6 years ago
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