2 sec to dodge a sticky with a predictable arc ok
100ms max ping to when your client gets the sticky on screen (unless you're playing on a ridiculously high ping server for some reason)
50ms interpolation delay (unless you're a scrub with bad settings)
50ms to process its trajectory
200ms max reaction to move away from where it's going
100mx max for the server to get your input signal
900ms to move out of the way as a *slow* class or in a weird direction
~400ms to unwind if you're heavy?
that all adds up to something less than 2000 and it's the worst case scenario for a decent player
have fun w/ ur 25% damage edge-of-splash-radius stickies on spun-up heavies and not even hitting anything else, exquisitestone 8)
2 sec to dodge a sticky with a predictable arc ok
100ms max ping to when your client gets the sticky on screen (unless you're playing on a ridiculously high ping server for some reason)
50ms interpolation delay (unless you're a scrub with bad settings)
50ms to process its trajectory
200ms max reaction to move away from where it's going
100mx max for the server to get your input signal
900ms to move out of the way as a *slow* class or in a weird direction
~400ms to unwind if you're heavy?
that all adds up to something less than 2000 and it's the worst case scenario for a decent player
have fun w/ ur 25% damage edge-of-splash-radius stickies on spun-up heavies and not even hitting anything else, exquisitestone 8)
ExquisiteStoneRikachuhave you ever played against good scouts
Like a good scout could be stopped with stickies before the nerf, only thing that could save you at close range was your GL.
I'm hardly up to Rikachu's level, but even I could stop a high level scout from rushing my ass down with a sticky to his face.
As much as I like the grenade launcher, the old sticky launcher was a major intimidation factor. Now it's basically a popgun. If I wanted to sit back and sync stickies or set up traps, I would use the Scottish Resistance.
[quote=ExquisiteStone][quote=Rikachu]have you ever played against good scouts[/quote]
Like a good scout could be stopped with stickies before the nerf, only thing that could save you at close range was your GL.[/quote]
I'm hardly up to Rikachu's level, but even I could stop a high level scout from rushing my ass down with a sticky to his face.
As much as I like the grenade launcher, the old sticky launcher was a major intimidation factor. Now it's basically a popgun. If I wanted to sit back and sync stickies or set up traps, I would use the Scottish Resistance.
wareya2 sec to dodge a sticky with a predictable arc ok
100ms max ping to when your client gets the sticky on screen (unless you're playing on a ridiculously high ping server for some reason)
50ms interpolation delay (unless you're a scrub with bad settings)
50ms to process its trajectory
200ms max reaction to move away from where it's going
100mx max for the server to get your input signal
900ms to move out of the way as a *slow* class or in a weird direction
~400ms to unwind if you're heavy?
that all adds up to something less than 2000 and it's the worst case scenario for a decent player
have fun w/ ur 25% damage edge-of-splash-radius stickies on spun-up heavies and not even hitting anything else, exquisitestone 8)
This is 2 minutes I will never get back...
[quote=wareya]2 sec to dodge a sticky with a predictable arc ok
100ms max ping to when your client gets the sticky on screen (unless you're playing on a ridiculously high ping server for some reason)
50ms interpolation delay (unless you're a scrub with bad settings)
50ms to process its trajectory
200ms max reaction to move away from where it's going
100mx max for the server to get your input signal
900ms to move out of the way as a *slow* class or in a weird direction
~400ms to unwind if you're heavy?
that all adds up to something less than 2000 and it's the worst case scenario for a decent player
have fun w/ ur 25% damage edge-of-splash-radius stickies on spun-up heavies and not even hitting anything else, exquisitestone 8)[/quote]
This is 2 minutes I will never get back...
DavidTheWinstuff
I agree. It absolutely sucks that they did this so late, but I'm saying that we should see this less as a personal attack, and more of an extended hand. If we act mature and handle this well, we'll likely see more cooperation from Valve. Rather than going with a knee-jerk reaction and demanding that they fix this immediately, if we play with it and show Valve, "Hey, look, this is fucking awful. Our game modes are now significantly worse off," they'll be more likely to adjust.
It'll suck for a bit, but it'll bring us a little closer to working with them.
[quote=DavidTheWin]stuff[/quote]
I agree. It absolutely sucks that they did this so late, but I'm saying that we should see this less as a personal attack, and more of an extended hand. If we act mature and handle this well, we'll likely see more cooperation from Valve. Rather than going with a knee-jerk reaction and demanding that they fix this immediately, if we play with it and show Valve, "Hey, look, this is fucking awful. Our game modes are now significantly worse off," they'll be more likely to adjust.
It'll suck for a bit, but it'll bring us a little closer to working with them.
wareya2 sec to dodge a sticky with a predictable arc ok
100ms max ping to when your client gets the sticky on screen (unless you're playing on a ridiculously high ping server for some reason)
50ms interpolation delay (unless you're a scrub with bad settings)
50ms to process its trajectory
200ms max reaction to move away from where it's going
100mx max for the server to get your input signal
900ms to move out of the way as a *slow* class or in a weird direction
~400ms to unwind if you're heavy?
that all adds up to something less than 2000 and it's the worst case scenario for a decent player
have fun w/ ur 25% damage edge-of-splash-radius stickies on spun-up heavies and not even hitting anything else, exquisitestone 8)
And all of that assumes the sticky is perfectly aimed in the first place.
Not to mention the fact that you aren't going to wait for the sticky to be shot before moving, you're actively dodging the entire fight before the stickies are even fired.
[quote=wareya]2 sec to dodge a sticky with a predictable arc ok
100ms max ping to when your client gets the sticky on screen (unless you're playing on a ridiculously high ping server for some reason)
50ms interpolation delay (unless you're a scrub with bad settings)
50ms to process its trajectory
200ms max reaction to move away from where it's going
100mx max for the server to get your input signal
900ms to move out of the way as a *slow* class or in a weird direction
~400ms to unwind if you're heavy?
that all adds up to something less than 2000 and it's the worst case scenario for a decent player
have fun w/ ur 25% damage edge-of-splash-radius stickies on spun-up heavies and not even hitting anything else, exquisitestone 8)[/quote]
And all of that assumes the sticky is perfectly aimed in the first place.
Not to mention the fact that you aren't going to wait for the sticky to be shot before moving, you're actively dodging the entire fight before the stickies are even fired.
ExquisiteStone"lots of really mad people who don't want to improve on how they play and want to keep playing the same old game forever."
More an observation than an opinion :P
;Going to sleep now, but imo people shouldn't make such a fuss about it and try finding new strats (or do usually extraordinary strats more often, I still find sycning stickies, basically spamming if you do it right, still does insane damage) instead of blowing the whole nerf up and claiming TF2 comp is dead
just stop posting
[quote=ExquisiteStone]"lots of really mad people who don't want to improve on how they play and want to keep playing the same old game forever."
More an observation than an opinion :P
;Going to sleep now, but imo people shouldn't make such a fuss about it and try finding new strats (or do usually extraordinary strats more often, I still find sycning stickies, basically spamming if you do it right, still does insane damage) instead of blowing the whole nerf up and claiming TF2 comp is dead[/quote]
just stop posting
Before there were three kinds of demoman: The one who played with Pipes, one who used his stickies more and the one who found a way to use both effectively and good. Now i feel forced to find a way between the first and the third one wich i feel not comfortable with and it will take some time to adapt but i am pretty sure every main demo who likes the class will be able to do so sooner or later so we should just stop crying and assume valve won't change it back.
Before there were three kinds of demoman: The one who played with Pipes, one who used his stickies more and the one who found a way to use both effectively and good. Now i feel forced to find a way between the first and the third one wich i feel not comfortable with and it will take some time to adapt but i am pretty sure every main demo who likes the class will be able to do so sooner or later so we should just stop crying and assume valve won't change it back.
the problem with the new stickies isn't that they change the meta. there are countless things that changed the meta just a little bit that we cherish deeply here in the NA TF2 community. the most obvious examples are the gunboats and kritz, and a nice one is the boston basher, and on the other end of what we don't even notice is the pain train and the force-a-nature and the righteous bison -- perfectly reasonable weapons that for the most part have the same kind of utility as a utility class does.
tf2 is a strategic, arena-like FPS game. it's pretty much the only significantly popular thing of its kind. but on both ends of the spectrum, where you have counter strike on one end, and quake on the other, both sides *hate* it *utterly* when the core of the game changes. tf2 is no different. this particular nerf to the sticky launcher is like making the ak47 not one-headshot in cs, or making the railgun in quake have a range limit, or reducing armor in quake to one type plus shards.
in quake, certain things are subject to change, like airstrafing mechanics and weapon damage and switch speed and level layout and which items are present where.
in cs, certain things are subject to change, like weapon prices and the behavior and presence and availability and cost of utility weapons and the specifics of splashes and smokes and grenades.
each of those things are side aspects of the game available to tweak to make the core balanced (CS:GO), or more suited for a different group of people (cpma).
in tf2, some things that should be subject to change are airstrafing rate, falloff mechanics, the specifics of non-core* weapons, things like the no-headshot zoom delay, how and when footsteps sound... the specifics of combat are too close to the core of how tf2 plays.
*where "core" weapons are defined as perfected by players to a point of being solved and balanced, including rockets, stickies, the medigun, and the shotgun, because their behavior is close to fundamental for the way the game is played at a very high level
for quake you can change movement as long as certain attributes are left. for cs you can change numbers money and guns as long as certain attributes are kept. for tf2 you can change weapons and quirks and even physics to a certain extent, as long as certain attributes are kept.
the sticky launcher is too close to the core of tf2. sure, spammy chokepoints and spammy aerials (to a much smaller extent) hold the game back, but the same thing that causes spammy chokepoints -- mostly stickies -- also holds back other things that would hold the game back, sentry and heavy turtle stalemates. and those were already problems before this nerf.
two seconds is enough to shoot off close range stickies on buildings, enough to dodge long range ones as heavy. long range traps don't work well. using grenades on buildings makes you much more vulnerable to scouts. this affects all levels of 6s play. this shifts the class balance dramatically at low levels and not the top, and slows down the top. it makes 6s even more different between skill levels and less fun at the peak too -- there's no winning.
you need to pick a solution to spammy chokepoints and aerials that doesn't do any of that. maybe add a tiny firing delay right after detonation. maybe reduce the radius or damage of stickies in general. just don't do anything that applies to problems inconsistently. that's unintuitive and deceptive, worse than the prior system to balance stickies (which worked really well in practice by the way -- if you ever feel like going back, do it)
tf2 focuses around particular things. changing those things as the game goes on is not good. it's not like a moba where there are endless aspects of gameplay and balancing them appropriately as a player and a team is the point of playing well. this is a game about cohesion and tactics and personal combat skill. dramatically changing the core of the game has dramatic effects that cascade through the entire game, from bottom to top.
the problem with the new stickies [b]isn't[/b] that they change the meta. there are countless things that changed the meta just a little bit that we cherish deeply here in the NA TF2 community. the most obvious examples are the gunboats and kritz, and a nice one is the boston basher, and on the other end of what we don't even notice is the pain train and the force-a-nature and the righteous bison -- perfectly reasonable weapons that for the most part have the same kind of utility as a utility class does.
tf2 is a strategic, arena-like FPS game. it's pretty much the only significantly popular thing of its kind. but on both ends of the spectrum, where you have counter strike on one end, and quake on the other, both sides *hate* it *utterly* when the core of the game changes. tf2 is no different. this particular nerf to the sticky launcher is like making the ak47 not one-headshot in cs, or making the railgun in quake have a range limit, or reducing armor in quake to one type plus shards.
in quake, certain things are subject to change, like airstrafing mechanics and weapon damage and switch speed and level layout and which items are present where.
in cs, certain things are subject to change, like weapon prices and the behavior and presence and availability and cost of utility weapons and the specifics of splashes and smokes and grenades.
each of those things are side aspects of the game available to tweak to make the core balanced (CS:GO), or more suited for a different group of people (cpma).
in tf2, some things that should be subject to change are airstrafing rate, falloff mechanics, the specifics of non-core[b]*[/b] weapons, things like the no-headshot zoom delay, how and when footsteps sound... the specifics of combat are too close to the core of how tf2 plays.
[b]*[/b][i]where "core" weapons are defined as perfected by players to a point of being solved and balanced, including rockets, stickies, the medigun, and the shotgun, because their behavior is close to fundamental for the way the game is played at a very high level[/i]
for quake you can change movement as long as certain attributes are left. for cs you can change numbers money and guns as long as certain attributes are kept. for tf2 you can change weapons and quirks and even physics to a certain extent, as long as certain attributes are kept.
the sticky launcher is too close to the core of tf2. sure, spammy chokepoints and spammy aerials (to a much smaller extent) hold the game back, but the same thing that causes spammy chokepoints -- mostly stickies -- also holds back other things that would hold the game back, sentry and heavy turtle stalemates. and those were already problems before this nerf.
two seconds is enough to shoot off close range stickies on buildings, enough to dodge long range ones as heavy. long range traps don't work well. using grenades on buildings makes you much more vulnerable to scouts. this affects all levels of 6s play. this shifts the class balance dramatically at low levels and not the top, and slows down the top. it makes 6s even more different between skill levels and less fun at the peak too -- there's no winning.
you need to pick a solution to spammy chokepoints and aerials that doesn't do any of that. maybe add a tiny firing delay right after detonation. maybe reduce the radius or damage of stickies in general. just don't do anything that applies to problems inconsistently. that's unintuitive and deceptive, worse than the prior system to balance stickies (which worked really well in practice by the way -- if you ever feel like going back, do it)
tf2 focuses around particular things. changing those things as the game goes on is not good. it's not like a moba where there are endless aspects of gameplay and balancing them appropriately as a player and a team is the point of playing well. this is a game about cohesion and tactics and personal combat skill. dramatically changing the core of the game has dramatic effects that cascade through the entire game, from bottom to top.
valiantI don't think this was a nerf because of parachute. If it was, they would have nerfed damage directly or they would have prevented Demo from being able to use it. This was a calculated decision.
Neither the 6v6 community nor Valve was going to change their views on how they think the game should be played. Valve wants to see meta shifts and usage of the different classes more often, while the 6v6 community dislikes this because the other classes and weapons can be dumb, bad, or unbalanced.
This is Valve's way of reaching out to us.
snipped the majority of your post, but i don't know why you think Valve considered the competitive community at all in these decisions. from what i can tell (and there might be a quote or two on this), they have openly supported and agree with the Highlander game system, as it mimics something of an organized pub with a lot more unlocks than sixes.
the sticky nerf might even effect HL more than 6's with 450 heavies and wrangled level 3's (not to forget that minis take 2 stickies to destroy, as well).
just as you speculate that the damage nerf was related to imploring the community and the meta to change, i speculate that it was directly related to the base jumper.
[quote=valiant]I don't think this was a nerf because of parachute. If it was, they would have nerfed damage directly or they would have prevented Demo from being able to use it. This was a calculated decision.
Neither the 6v6 community nor Valve was going to change their views on how they think the game should be played. [b]Valve wants to see meta shifts and usage of the different classes more often[/b], while the 6v6 community dislikes this because the other classes and weapons can be dumb, bad, or unbalanced.
This is Valve's way of reaching out to us.[/quote]
snipped the majority of your post, but i don't know why you think Valve considered the competitive community [i]at all[/i] in these decisions. from what i can tell (and there might be a quote or two on this), they have openly supported and agree with the Highlander game system, as it mimics something of an organized pub with a lot more unlocks than sixes.
the sticky nerf might even effect HL more than 6's with 450 heavies and wrangled level 3's (not to forget that minis take 2 stickies to destroy, as well).
just as you speculate that the damage nerf was related to imploring the community and the meta to change, i speculate that it was directly related to the base jumper.
joddi speculate that it was directly related to the base jumper.
See, but then why would they change ramp up of all things? If anything, demos using the parachute aren't going to be air detting stickies on people. They'd be better served carpeting stickies all over the place, which means that stickies will do full damage anyway.
[quote=jodd]i speculate that it was directly related to the base jumper.[/quote]
See, but then why would they change ramp up of all things? If anything, demos using the parachute aren't going to be air detting stickies on people. They'd be better served carpeting stickies all over the place, which means that stickies will do full damage anyway.
valiantjoddi speculate that it was directly related to the base jumper.
See, but then why would they change ramp up? If anything, demos using the parachute aren't going to be air detting stickies on people. They'd be better served carpeting stickies all over the place, which means that stickies will do full damage anyway.
the best position in this game is the air and the chute allows you to nearly be perpetually airborne giving you an infinite advantage. It is highly improbable that valve took the time to think about us.
[quote=valiant][quote=jodd]i speculate that it was directly related to the base jumper.[/quote]
See, but then why would they change ramp up? If anything, demos using the parachute aren't going to be air detting stickies on people. They'd be better served carpeting stickies all over the place, which means that stickies will do full damage anyway.[/quote]
the best position in this game is the air and the chute allows you to nearly be perpetually airborne giving you an infinite advantage. It is highly improbable that valve took the time to think about us.
valiantjoddi speculate that it was directly related to the base jumper.
See, but then why would they change ramp up? If anything, demos using the parachute aren't going to be air detting stickies on people. They'd be better served carpeting stickies all over the place, which means that stickies will do full damage anyway.
the base jumper could directly affect why heavy was nerfed as well -- so you don't just get immediately and completely suspended in the air by the minigun.
speculating these updates were to appease pubbers, while also trying to harmonize the new weapons into typical pub gameplay, makes a lot more sense to me than thinking they even considered the results it would have on tf2's competitive game modes.
[quote=valiant][quote=jodd]i speculate that it was directly related to the base jumper.[/quote]
See, but then why would they change ramp up? If anything, demos using the parachute aren't going to be air detting stickies on people. They'd be better served carpeting stickies all over the place, which means that stickies will do full damage anyway.[/quote]
the base jumper could directly affect why heavy was nerfed as well -- so you don't just get immediately and completely suspended in the air by the minigun.
speculating these updates were to appease pubbers, while also trying to harmonize the new weapons into typical pub gameplay, makes a lot more sense to me than thinking they even considered the results it would have on tf2's competitive game modes.
Saltysally1stuff
Absolutely. But then why ramp up? Why not just a direct nerf to damage? It's not like a 15% damage penalty would hurt sticky traps that much. Why even allow the demo to use it if it was so powerful? Demo didn't get gunboats. They clearly didn't have to give it to demo. It doesn't add up that the nerf was directly caused by the parachute.
[quote=Saltysally1]stuff[/quote]
Absolutely. But then why ramp up? Why not just a direct nerf to damage? It's not like a 15% damage penalty would hurt sticky traps that much. Why even allow the demo to use it if it was so powerful? Demo didn't get gunboats. They clearly didn't have to give it to demo. It doesn't add up that the nerf was directly caused by the parachute.
Thing is, if the nerf was a direct response to the parachute, that would mean that their thought process was something along the lines of
ValveThis new weapon paired with this old original weapon is really unbalanced, lets nerf the old weapon to add this new weapon
completely backwards logic, especially so when you take into account their previous mindset of fixing the existing broken weapons before introducing more.
Thing is, if the nerf was a direct response to the parachute, that would mean that their thought process was something along the lines of
[quote=Valve]This new weapon paired with this old original weapon is really unbalanced, lets nerf the old weapon to add this new weapon[/quote]
completely backwards logic, especially so when you take into account their previous mindset of fixing the existing broken weapons before introducing more.
valiantSaltysally1stuff
Absolutely. But then why ramp up? Why not just a direct nerf to damage? It's not like a 15% damage penalty would hurt sticky traps that much. Why even allow the demo to use it if it was so powerful? Demo didn't get gunboats. They clearly didn't have to give it to demo. It doesn't add up that the nerf was directly caused by the parachute.
common sense tells me to move out of the way of stickies that sit next to me for 2 seconds. I can't believe i had to actually explain this to you.
[quote=valiant][quote=Saltysally1]stuff[/quote]
Absolutely. But then why ramp up? Why not just a direct nerf to damage? It's not like a 15% damage penalty would hurt sticky traps that much. Why even allow the demo to use it if it was so powerful? Demo didn't get gunboats. They clearly didn't have to give it to demo. It doesn't add up that the nerf was directly caused by the parachute.[/quote]
common sense tells me to move out of the way of stickies that sit next to me for 2 seconds. I can't believe i had to actually explain this to you.
Greets,
Someone in mumble mentioned Platinum used Scottish Resistance in his match last night. Would love to see that game, is their any recording or demo available anywhere you could point me.
Thanks, K
Greets,
Someone in mumble mentioned Platinum used Scottish Resistance in his match last night. Would love to see that game, is their any recording or demo available anywhere you could point me.
Thanks, K
wareyatf2 is a strategic, arena-like FPS game. it's pretty much the only significantly popular thing of its kind. but on both ends of the spectrum, where you have counter strike on one end, and quake on the other, both sides *hate* it *utterly* when the core of the game changes. tf2 is no different. this particular nerf to the sticky launcher is like making the ak47 not one-headshot in cs, or making the railgun in quake have a range limit, or reducing armor in quake to one type plus shards.
in tf2, some things that should be subject to change are airstrafing rate, falloff mechanics, the specifics of non-core* weapons, things like the no-headshot zoom delay, how and when footsteps sound... the specifics of combat are too close to the core of how tf2 plays.
*where "core" weapons are defined as perfected by players to a point of being solved and balanced, including rockets, stickies, the medigun, and the shotgun, because their behavior is close to fundamental for the way the game is played at a very high level
the sticky launcher is too close to the core of tf2. sure, spammy chokepoints and spammy aerials (to a much smaller extent) hold the game back, but the same thing that causes spammy chokepoints -- mostly stickies -- also holds back other things that would hold the game back, sentry and heavy turtle stalemates. and those were already problems before this nerf.
two seconds is enough to shoot off close range stickies on buildings, enough to dodge long range ones as heavy. long range traps don't work well. using grenades on buildings makes you much more vulnerable to scouts. this affects all levels of 6s play. this shifts the class balance dramatically at low levels and not the top, and slows down the top. it makes 6s even more different between skill levels and less fun at the peak too -- there's no winning.
tf2 focuses around particular things. changing those things as the game goes on is not good. it's not like a moba where there are endless aspects of gameplay and balancing them appropriately as a player and a team is the point of playing well. this is a game about cohesion and tactics and personal combat skill. dramatically changing the core of the game has dramatic effects that cascade through the entire game, from bottom to top.
snipped some of your post to not spam everyone, but this is actually really well-worded and thought out.
is there any way we could sort of pen a letter, as a community, to be sent to valve/the tf2 team by some key players with tenure? i believe cyzer had some really key input during the beta that added some long-standing changes to the game - don't know specifics, though.
eXupGreets,
Someone in mumble mentioned Platinum used Scottish Resistance in his match last night. Would love to see that game, is their any recording or demo available anywhere you could point me.
Thanks, K
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDvxD7IqA7A
[quote=wareya]
tf2 is a strategic, arena-like FPS game. it's pretty much the only significantly popular thing of its kind. but on both ends of the spectrum, where you have counter strike on one end, and quake on the other, both sides *hate* it *utterly* when the core of the game changes. tf2 is no different. this particular nerf to the sticky launcher is like making the ak47 not one-headshot in cs, or making the railgun in quake have a range limit, or reducing armor in quake to one type plus shards.
in tf2, some things that should be subject to change are airstrafing rate, falloff mechanics, the specifics of non-core[b]*[/b] weapons, things like the no-headshot zoom delay, how and when footsteps sound... the specifics of combat are too close to the core of how tf2 plays.
[b]*[i]where "core" weapons are defined as perfected by players to a point of being solved and balanced, including rockets, stickies, the medigun, and the shotgun, because their behavior is close to fundamental for the way the game is played at a very high level[/i][/b]
the sticky launcher is too close to the core of tf2. sure, spammy chokepoints and spammy aerials (to a much smaller extent) hold the game back, but the same thing that causes spammy chokepoints -- mostly stickies -- also holds back other things that would hold the game back, sentry and heavy turtle stalemates. and those were already problems before this nerf.
two seconds is enough to shoot off close range stickies on buildings, enough to dodge long range ones as heavy. long range traps don't work well. using grenades on buildings makes you much more vulnerable to scouts. this affects all levels of 6s play. this shifts the class balance dramatically at low levels and not the top, and slows down the top. it makes 6s even more different between skill levels and less fun at the peak too -- there's no winning.
tf2 focuses around particular things. changing those things as the game goes on is not good. it's not like a moba where there are endless aspects of gameplay and balancing them appropriately as a player and a team is the point of playing well. this is a game about cohesion and tactics and personal combat skill. dramatically changing the core of the game has dramatic effects that cascade through the entire game, from bottom to top.[/quote]
snipped some of your post to not spam everyone, but this is actually really well-worded and thought out.
is there any way we could sort of pen a letter, as a community, to be sent to valve/the tf2 team by some key players with tenure? i believe cyzer had some really key input during the beta that added some long-standing changes to the game - don't know specifics, though.
[quote=eXup]Greets,
Someone in mumble mentioned Platinum used Scottish Resistance in his match last night. Would love to see that game, is their any recording or demo available anywhere you could point me.
Thanks, K[/quote]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDvxD7IqA7A
valiantDavidTheWinstuff
I agree. It absolutely sucks that they did this so late, but I'm saying that we should see this less as a personal attack, and more of an extended hand. If we act mature and handle this well, we'll likely see more cooperation from Valve. Rather than going with a knee-jerk reaction and demanding that they fix this immediately, if we play with it and show Valve, "Hey, look, this is fucking awful. Our game modes are now significantly worse off," they'll be more likely to adjust.
It'll suck for a bit, but it'll bring us a little closer to working with them.
I really don't understand this logic, as if valve is a cool guy that we spurned and is giving us the cold shoulder, rather than a private company whose only purpose is to earn profits for its executives and higher-up employees.
Valve doesn't support competitive tf2 because they don't see it as a feasible opportunity to MAKE MONEY anymore. Nothing more, nothing less. They are allocating their copious resources by supporting DOTA 2 first, and CSGO in a distant second, while tf2 is basically being maintained by like 3 interns.
Valve has a tried-and-true system of game developing. They find people who had the creative spark to make a great mod, buy out their franchise, and then put the other 95% of their employees on maintaining said games while the creative minds behind them in the first place move onto other projects, or set out on their own. The creative team behind tf2 is irrelevant and has been so for many years.
Valve had the opportunity to do many many things for competitive tf2 over the years, from the very big (hosting big money tournaments) to the medium (an in-game 6v6/hl lobby system, advanced spectator tools), to the rather small (not releasing updates 2 hrs before big matches, not breaking demos all the time, a competitive news tab and streams tab in the main window of the game, a nod to competitive players when it comes to weapon balance, posting about tf2 news on the FRONT PAGE of their website, generally acknowledging the comp scene's existence). They have done NONE of these things.
This false hope that big daddy Valve is gonna step in and save our game makes me want to vomit. It's shortsighted and it isn't what the great PC gaming DIY ethos should be about.
[quote=valiant][quote=DavidTheWin]stuff[/quote]
I agree. It absolutely sucks that they did this so late, but I'm saying that we should see this less as a personal attack, and more of an extended hand. If we act mature and handle this well, we'll likely see more cooperation from Valve. Rather than going with a knee-jerk reaction and demanding that they fix this immediately, if we play with it and show Valve, "Hey, look, this is fucking awful. Our game modes are now significantly worse off," they'll be more likely to adjust.
It'll suck for a bit, but it'll bring us a little closer to working with them.[/quote]
I really don't understand this logic, as if valve is a cool guy that we spurned and is giving us the cold shoulder, rather than a private company whose only purpose is to earn profits for its executives and higher-up employees.
Valve doesn't support competitive tf2 because they don't see it as a feasible opportunity to MAKE MONEY anymore. Nothing more, nothing less. They are allocating their copious resources by supporting DOTA 2 first, and CSGO in a distant second, while tf2 is basically being maintained by like 3 interns.
Valve has a tried-and-true system of game developing. They find people who had the creative spark to make a great mod, buy out their franchise, and then put the other 95% of their employees on maintaining said games while the creative minds behind them in the first place move onto other projects, or set out on their own. The creative team behind tf2 is irrelevant and has been so for many years.
Valve had the opportunity to do many many things for competitive tf2 over the years, from the very big (hosting big money tournaments) to the medium (an in-game 6v6/hl lobby system, advanced spectator tools), to the rather small (not releasing updates 2 hrs before big matches, not breaking demos all the time, a competitive news tab and streams tab in the main window of the game, a nod to competitive players when it comes to weapon balance, posting about tf2 news on the FRONT PAGE of their website, generally acknowledging the comp scene's existence). They have done NONE of these things.
This false hope that big daddy Valve is gonna step in and save our game makes me want to vomit. It's shortsighted and it isn't what the great PC gaming DIY ethos should be about.
even though I disagree that the nerf is a bad thing, these arguments are totally valid. the problem is that said arguments seem to revolve around the idea that Valve cares about what the competitive scene thinks about their balancing decisions.
Valve doesn't give a fuck. sorry.
even though I disagree that the nerf is a bad thing, these arguments are totally valid. the problem is that said arguments seem to revolve around the idea that Valve cares about what the competitive scene thinks about their balancing decisions.
Valve doesn't give a fuck. sorry.
eXupGreets,
Someone in mumble mentioned Platinum used Scottish Resistance in his match last night. Would love to see that game, is their any recording or demo available anywhere you could point me.
Thanks, K
STV's
http://sizzlingstats.com/stats/233518
http://sizzlingstats.com/stats/233488
[quote=eXup]Greets,
Someone in mumble mentioned Platinum used Scottish Resistance in his match last night. Would love to see that game, is their any recording or demo available anywhere you could point me.
Thanks, K[/quote]
STV's
http://sizzlingstats.com/stats/233518
http://sizzlingstats.com/stats/233488
botmodehas anyone tested playing with QF with this change to demo??
i'm interested in the result..
Well considering that one of the counters to QF was kritz then the demo nerf would make QF even more poweful and dumb because you'd only be able to beat it with a heavy, sentry, or a trap. No thank you.
[quote=botmode]has anyone tested playing with QF with this change to demo??
i'm interested in the result..[/quote]
Well considering that one of the counters to QF was kritz then the demo nerf would make QF even more poweful and dumb because you'd only be able to beat it with a heavy, sentry, or a trap. No thank you.
mustardoverlordits executives and higher-up employees.
You have no idea how Valve is actually structured.
Valve doesn't support competitive tf2 because they don't see it as a feasible opportunity to MAKE MONEY anymore..~..while tf2 is basically being maintained by like 3 interns.
Valve doesn't support 6v6 TF2 for quite a few reasons. One is yes, it doesn't make them money. 6s bans the vast majority of weapons, uses only a handful of the maps, and doesn't display anything TF2 has to offer. Why would Valve support something that openly works against the content creators? The second is because, as Lange said in his post-patch stream, 6v6 is founded on arbitrary rules slapped together and was the first thing that "kinda worked". I trust Langes view on history, in which he openly said 6v6 was not crafted over years of perfecting a style, but was the first thing thrown to the wall that stuck, and the community clenched to it ever since. If I'm misquoting, Lange is free to correct me.
Side note, last I heard TF2 as a dedicated 12 person team assigned to it, but with how Valve works that could have easily changed since then.
Valve had the opportunity to do many many things for competitive tf2 over the years, from the very big (hosting big money tournaments) to the medium (an in-game 6v6/hl lobby system, advanced spectator tools), to the rather small (not releasing updates 2 hrs before big matches, not breaking demos all the time, a competitive news tab and streams tab in the main window of the game, a nod to competitive players when it comes to weapon balance, posting about tf2 news on the FRONT PAGE of their website, generally acknowledging the comp scene's existence). They have done NONE of these things.
As stated before, Valve has no reason to support 6v6. The 6s community is so openly hostile towards Valve, and many players (low, mid, and top tier) act like it is completely impossible to be flexible in gameplay, with items, with maps, with any kind of change. Robins stated the game mode is stale, and while their are some amazing matches in that locked in style, it never changes and can grow tiring. The lack of flexibility in 6s was shown when so many people were rabidly demanding the Conch be banned, when its only real buff was a very small health regen, despite the possibilities it opens up (See: Plats COnch play on Gullywash last at...I think Insomnia? Or was it ESEA finals? I forget, there were a couple). For example, the last TFTV Twitch Invitational cast was fantastic, it had an incredibly amount of hype, was a massive joy to watch, and showcased what players could do with alternate weapons. Cosas Demoknighting was top tier and incredible to see, and who'd have thought we'd see Plat running full time ScotRes, and making it work (from what I could see)? It was awesome, and I know I'm not the only one who enjoyed it.
This false hope that big daddy Valve is gonna step in and save our game makes me want to vomit. It's shortsighted and it isn't what the great PC gaming DIY ethos should be about.
Thats just it. TF2 isn't in any danger. Player counts have soared since the update hit. Its only the 6v6 meta thats in danger, and its something a lot of people, including a lot of top invite level players, have thought needed to change for some time now.
[quote=mustardoverlord]its executives and higher-up employees.[/quote]
You have no idea how Valve is actually structured.
[quote]Valve doesn't support competitive tf2 because they don't see it as a feasible opportunity to MAKE MONEY anymore..~..while tf2 is basically being maintained by like 3 interns. [/quote]
Valve doesn't support 6v6 TF2 for quite a few reasons. One is yes, it doesn't make them money. 6s bans the vast majority of weapons, uses only a handful of the maps, and doesn't display anything TF2 has to offer. Why would Valve support something that openly works against the content creators? The second is because, as Lange said in his post-patch stream, 6v6 is founded on arbitrary rules slapped together and was the first thing that "kinda worked". I trust Langes view on history, in which he openly said 6v6 was not crafted over years of perfecting a style, but was the first thing thrown to the wall that stuck, and the community clenched to it ever since. If I'm misquoting, Lange is free to correct me.
Side note, last I heard TF2 as a dedicated 12 person team assigned to it, but with how Valve works that could have easily changed since then.
[quote]Valve had the opportunity to do many many things for competitive tf2 over the years, from the very big (hosting big money tournaments) to the medium (an in-game 6v6/hl lobby system, advanced spectator tools), to the rather small (not releasing updates 2 hrs before big matches, not breaking demos all the time, a competitive news tab and streams tab in the main window of the game, a nod to competitive players when it comes to weapon balance, posting about tf2 news on the FRONT PAGE of their website, generally acknowledging the comp scene's existence). They have done NONE of these things.[/quote]
As stated before, Valve has no reason to support 6v6. The 6s community is so openly hostile towards Valve, and many players (low, mid, and top tier) act like it is completely impossible to be flexible in gameplay, with items, with maps, with any kind of change. Robins stated the game mode is stale, and while their are some amazing matches in that locked in style, it never changes and can grow tiring. The lack of flexibility in 6s was shown when so many people were rabidly demanding the Conch be banned, when its only real buff was a very small health regen, despite the possibilities it opens up (See: Plats COnch play on Gullywash last at...I think Insomnia? Or was it ESEA finals? I forget, there were a couple). For example, the last TFTV Twitch Invitational cast was [b]fantastic[/b], it had an incredibly amount of hype, was a massive joy to watch, and showcased what players could do with alternate weapons. Cosas Demoknighting was top tier and incredible to see, and who'd have thought we'd see Plat running full time ScotRes, and making it work (from what I could see)? It was awesome, and I know I'm not the only one who enjoyed it.
[quote]This false hope that big daddy Valve is gonna step in and save our game makes me want to vomit. It's shortsighted and it isn't what the great PC gaming DIY ethos should be about.[/quote]
Thats just it. TF2 isn't in any danger. Player counts have soared since the update hit. Its only the 6v6 meta thats in danger, and its something a lot of people, including a lot of top invite level players, have thought needed to change for some time now.
mustardoverlordThis false hope that big daddy Valve is gonna step in and save our game makes me want to vomit. It's shortsighted and it isn't what the great PC gaming DIY ethos should be about.
When did I ever say any of that? I never said that Valve was giving us hand outs or that they care about us and want us to succeed. I said they changed weapons to make other classes more viable and run more often. They want 6v6 to be closer to pubs so they changed shit that would do that. Sixes players disliked this and now Valve did something they knew would mix everything up. It's not that Valve wants to take care of us, it's that they want us to not be so far away from their general user base.
I simply stated that rather than have this "It's Us or Them" attitude, it's better to act like adults and try and communicate in a reasonable fashion. I get that they haven't done shit for us in the past, but that doesn't mean they'll never do anything for us. I also understand that your reactions are from years of Valve not giving a shit, but the more likely we are to accept change, the more likely they are.
[quote=mustardoverlord]This false hope that big daddy Valve is gonna step in and save our game makes me want to vomit. It's shortsighted and it isn't what the great PC gaming DIY ethos should be about.[/quote]
When did I ever say any of that? I never said that Valve was giving us hand outs or that they care about us and want us to succeed. I said they changed weapons to make other classes more viable and run more often. They want 6v6 to be closer to pubs so they changed shit that would do that. Sixes players disliked this and now Valve did something they knew would mix everything up. It's not that Valve wants to take care of us, it's that they want us to not be so far away from their general user base.
I simply stated that rather than have this "It's Us or Them" attitude, it's better to act like adults and try and communicate in a reasonable fashion. I get that they haven't done shit for us in the past, but that doesn't mean they'll never do anything for us. I also understand that your reactions are from years of Valve not giving a shit, but the more likely we are to accept change, the more likely they are.
What the fuck are these changes.
What the fuck are these changes.
r4pture
Its only the 6v6 meta thats in danger
I'd argue highlander is worse off. No class can dish out the concetrated damage like the demo could before, while the defenders still have pretty much the same to work with as before. It's hard to get anything done, especially when you are at a height-disadvantage. It's borderline unplayable as it is right now, atleast for high-level teams that know how to defend.
[quote=r4pture]
Its only the 6v6 meta thats in danger
[/quote]
I'd argue highlander is worse off. No class can dish out the concetrated damage like the demo could before, while the defenders still have pretty much the same to work with as before. It's hard to get anything done, especially when you are at a height-disadvantage. It's borderline unplayable as it is right now, atleast for high-level teams that know how to defend.
[img]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19846888/tumblr_mhd0bzZWCd1r06m1wo1_500.gif[/img]
maybe valve should just nerf engi then?
the stickies were OP but no one gave a shit because they made the game fun, the only problem with this change is that valve forgot to make sure engineer, heavy, and medic got nerfed as well
maybe valve should just nerf engi then?
the stickies were OP but no one gave a shit because they made the game fun, the only problem with this change is that valve forgot to make sure engineer, heavy, and medic got nerfed as well
i think that if they have the wrangler equipped for too long then the engineer should explode
or like it depletes energy or some shit
i think that if they have the wrangler equipped for too long then the engineer should explode
or like it depletes energy or some shit
eeemaybe valve should just nerf engi then?
the stickies were OP but no one gave a shit because they made the game fun, the only problem with this change is that valve forgot to make sure engineer, heavy, and medic got nerfed as well
1) Heavy did get nerfed
2) What the hell would you Nerf on medic? Or are you talking about nerfing ubers and heals, the backbone of tf2...?
[quote=eee]maybe valve should just nerf engi then?
the stickies were OP but no one gave a shit because they made the game fun, the only problem with this change is that valve forgot to make sure engineer, heavy, and medic got nerfed as well[/quote]
1) Heavy did get nerfed
2) What the hell would you Nerf on medic? Or are you talking about nerfing ubers and heals, the backbone of tf2...?
on the less bright side my friend quit because of this update
rip heartstrings
on the less bright side my friend quit because of this update
rip heartstrings