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my 5cp idea to help with stalemates
1
#1
0 Frags +

After seeing uncle dane's recent video it got me really thinking about what changes could happen to make 5cp less stalematey.

So the biggest problem that i saw from most people is that the round timer is set to around 10 minutes to capture a single point and the time resets when one is captured.

I feel that maybe if we have instead 10 minute rounds it would encourage people to push more and would guarantee 3 mid fights a map in etf2l and 6 mid fights in ESEA , and this is stating if the worst happened where teams would not be able to cap once. Although I know it's not perfect I feel this could be a good possibility to try out.

Thoughts? Concerns? let me know

Edit: Also i'd like to say that overtime on the final point would be fine as well so that even if the team ran out of time they can cap the point if they were winning the fight

After seeing uncle dane's recent video it got me really thinking about what changes could happen to make 5cp less stalematey.

So the biggest problem that i saw from most people is that the round timer is set to around 10 minutes to capture a single point and the time resets when one is captured.

I feel that maybe if we have instead 10 minute rounds it would encourage people to push more and would guarantee 3 mid fights a map in etf2l and 6 mid fights in ESEA , and this is stating if the worst happened where teams would not be able to cap once. Although I know it's not perfect I feel this could be a good possibility to try out.

Thoughts? Concerns? let me know

Edit: Also i'd like to say that overtime on the final point would be fine as well so that even if the team ran out of time they can cap the point if they were winning the fight
2
#2
7 Frags +

Has anything like this been tried before? It seems like an interesting idea.

Has anything like this been tried before? It seems like an interesting idea.
3
#3
cp_granary_pro
26 Frags +

http://pix.iemoji.com/images/emoji/apple/ios-9/33/1818.png

[img]http://pix.iemoji.com/images/emoji/apple/ios-9/33/1818.png[/img]
4
#4
19 Frags +

the 5cp meta is fine and everyone who thinks that stalemates are a result of the game mode you're just wrong. Trying to force stalemates out of the meta is a lost cause considering it is a strategy that was developed by players, not by the design of he gamemode (this is why 10 minute stalemate timer is included in the gamemode). It is simply the safest and easiest way to play at high levels as top level players can turn any pick into a winning push. Its not the greatest to watch or the funnest way to play, but is effective at what it does and teams shouldn't be forced to turn away from that just because people find it boring to look at.

If you change the rules, or change the gamemode, players will develop another strategy equally as "unfun" to play against and people will complain about that too, like they always do.

Some teams stalemate more than others, that is true. But the way I see it if you can't get creative enough or have enough strats in mind to try and break a solid defense by an opposing team, do you really deserve to win anyways? Why would a team ever push against an offense they know won't win. In terms of actually winning games, there is no point.

the 5cp meta is fine and everyone who thinks that stalemates are a result of the game mode you're just wrong. Trying to force stalemates out of the meta is a lost cause considering it is a strategy that was developed by players, not by the design of he gamemode (this is why 10 minute stalemate timer is included in the gamemode). It is simply the safest and easiest way to play at high levels as top level players can turn any pick into a winning push. Its not the greatest to watch or the funnest way to play, but is effective at what it does and teams shouldn't be forced to turn away from that just because people find it boring to look at.

If you change the rules, or change the gamemode, players will develop another strategy equally as "unfun" to play against and people will complain about that too, like they always do.

Some teams stalemate more than others, that is true. But the way I see it if you can't get creative enough or have enough strats in mind to try and break a solid defense by an opposing team, do you really deserve to win anyways? Why would a team ever push against an offense they know won't win. In terms of actually winning games, there is no point.
5
#5
14 Frags +

i think this would ruin the flow of the game and also ruin really close games where teams are trading points back and forth and grinding team fights and pulling off clutch defenses.

also what happens if a team (in this hypothetical close game) finally gets a good second push in after trading points back and forth and are setting up to push last and the round timer just runs out. they shouldnt be punished just because theyve been leap frogging back and forth.

from a spectating standpoint, prolonged stalemates arent fun to watch. if you wanted to have a better gamemode to watch, personally, i believe koth is the better option (more fights, less down time, easier to explain to newer players/spectators) but its a mess to cast because more team fights and action and less down time to analyze previous fights.

edit: i personally think 5cp is fine where it is + this

lucrativeSome teams stalemate more than others, that is true. But the way I see it if you can't get creative enough or have enough strats in mind to try and break a solid defense by an opposing team, do you really deserve to win anyways
i think this would ruin the flow of the game and also ruin really close games where teams are trading points back and forth and grinding team fights and pulling off clutch defenses.

also what happens if a team (in this hypothetical close game) finally gets a good second push in after trading points back and forth and are setting up to push last and the round timer just runs out. they shouldnt be punished just because theyve been leap frogging back and forth.

from a spectating standpoint, prolonged stalemates arent fun to watch. if you wanted to have a better gamemode to watch, personally, i believe koth is the better option (more fights, less down time, easier to explain to newer players/spectators) but its a mess to cast because more team fights and action and less down time to analyze previous fights.

edit: i personally think 5cp is fine where it is + this
[quote=lucrative]Some teams stalemate more than others, that is true. But the way I see it if you can't get creative enough or have enough strats in mind to try and break a solid defense by an opposing team, do you really deserve to win anyways[/quote]
6
#6
9 Frags +

Just making it shorter might help since the team that owns mid has to push or face a reset.

Just making it shorter might help since the team that owns mid has to push or face a reset.
7
#7
49 Frags +

I think if we put in a 10 minute round timer, teams will just turtle up on last if they lose mid and refuse to push until the round ends. 10 minute timers could actually have a reverse effect on what we're trying to accomplish?

I think if we put in a 10 minute round timer, teams will just turtle up on last if they lose mid and refuse to push until the round ends. 10 minute timers could actually have a reverse effect on what we're trying to accomplish?
8
#8
34 Frags +

Play more Koth.

Play more Koth.
9
#9
-1 Frags +
lucrativethe 5cp meta is fine and everyone who thinks that stalemates are a result of the game mode you're just wrong. Trying to force stalemates out of the meta is a lost cause considering it is a strategy that was developed by players, not by the design of he gamemode (this is why 10 minute stalemate timer is included in the gamemode). It is simply the safest and easiest way to play at high levels as top level players can turn any pick into a winning push. Its not the greatest to watch or the funnest way to play, but is effective at what it does and teams shouldn't be forced to turn away from that just because people find it boring to look at.

If you change the rules, or change the gamemode, players will develop another strategy equally as "unfun" to play against and people will complain about that too, like they always do.

Some teams stalemate more than others, that is true. But the way I see it if you can't get creative enough or have enough strategies in mind to try and break a solid defense by an opposing team, do you really deserve to win anyways? Why would a team ever push against an offense they know won't win. In terms of actually winning games, there is no point.

Although I agree that there are ways to break any stalemate if you play your team and advantages right. the problem is even the best players sometimes suffer to break stalemates because of nerves and the game itself with it's classes and weapons (weapons can be balanced but it's much harder for classes to be balanced).

Also some maps are just designed for stalemate to be hard to break. I feel 10 minutes is plenty of time to think of ways to break stalemates and a good way to prevent the worst kind of stalemates that go on for the entire map.

Also there really is only one unfun strategy to make in 5cp and that is stalemates (and by stalemates i mean where teams don't do shit for a looooooong time. The only real problem i can see is if the losing team decides to park the bus until the timer resets, but that is bad because you put yourself at risk of losing if you never do anything besides holding last. though if you can tell me any problems you see tell me as i might just be ignorant af.

[quote=lucrative]the 5cp meta is fine and everyone who thinks that stalemates are a result of the game mode you're just wrong. Trying to force stalemates out of the meta is a lost cause considering it is a strategy that was developed by players, not by the design of he gamemode (this is why 10 minute stalemate timer is included in the gamemode). It is simply the safest and easiest way to play at high levels as top level players can turn any pick into a winning push. Its not the greatest to watch or the funnest way to play, but is effective at what it does and teams shouldn't be forced to turn away from that just because people find it boring to look at.

If you change the rules, or change the gamemode, players will develop another strategy equally as "unfun" to play against and people will complain about that too, like they always do.

Some teams stalemate more than others, that is true. But the way I see it if you can't get creative enough or have enough strategies in mind to try and break a solid defense by an opposing team, do you really deserve to win anyways? Why would a team ever push against an offense they know won't win. In terms of actually winning games, there is no point.[/quote]


Although I agree that there are ways to break any stalemate if you play your team and advantages right. the problem is even the best players sometimes suffer to break stalemates because of nerves and the game itself with it's classes and weapons (weapons can be balanced but it's much harder for classes to be balanced).

Also some maps are just designed for stalemate to be hard to break. I feel 10 minutes is plenty of time to think of ways to break stalemates and a good way to prevent the worst kind of stalemates that go on for the entire map.

Also there really is only one unfun strategy to make in 5cp and that is stalemates (and by stalemates i mean where teams don't do shit for a looooooong time. The only real problem i can see is if the losing team decides to park the bus until the timer resets, but that is bad because you put yourself at risk of losing if you never do anything besides holding last. though if you can tell me any problems you see tell me as i might just be ignorant af.
10
#10
7 Frags +
Starry_NebulaeAlthough I agree that there are ways to break any stalemate if you play your team and advantages right. the problem is even the best players sometimes suffer to break stalemates because of nerves and the game itself with it's classes and weapons (weapons can be balanced but it's much harder for classes to be balanced).

Pretty sure top level games are slowed down a lot and stalemate is because top level players are extremely good and can turn any advantage into a win and it makes it risky to make plays when big games are on the line.

Nerves are not really a relevant argument on this topic, and nether is weapon balance.

PontI think if we put in a 10 minute round timer, teams will just turtle up on last if they lose mid and refuse to push until the round ends. 10 minute timers could actually have a reverse effect on what we're trying to accomplish?
[quote=Starry_Nebulae]Although I agree that there are ways to break any stalemate if you play your team and advantages right. the problem is even the best players sometimes suffer to break stalemates because of nerves and the game itself with it's classes and weapons (weapons can be balanced but it's much harder for classes to be balanced). [/quote]

Pretty sure top level games are slowed down a lot and stalemate is because top level players are extremely good and can turn any advantage into a win and it makes it risky to make plays when big games are on the line.

Nerves are not really a relevant argument on this topic, and nether is weapon balance.

[quote=Pont]I think if we put in a 10 minute round timer, teams will just turtle up on last if they lose mid and refuse to push until the round ends. 10 minute timers could actually have a reverse effect on what we're trying to accomplish?[/quote]
11
#11
14 Frags +
HildrethPlay more Koth.

This. I would be eternally grateful if we could play two weeks (or more) of koth instead having to play metalworks week twice this season (puke)

[quote=Hildreth]Play more Koth.[/quote]
This. I would be eternally grateful if we could play two weeks (or more) of koth instead having to play metalworks week twice this season (puke)
12
#12
14 Frags +

also stalemates dont have to be slow. the only time stalemates are slow are when the attacking team is either running a pick class or recycling roamer bombs. theres a lot more active and creative ways to play stalemates like coordinated spam, baiting for picks, taking your heals to fight their flank, getting players behind, running 2 or 3 mans or even doing the old euro way of taking a solo to get ubers out of the way and trying to win the ensuing team fight. but most teams seem to default to the former.

also stalemates dont have to be slow. the only time stalemates are slow are when the attacking team is either running a pick class or recycling roamer bombs. theres a lot more active and creative ways to play stalemates like coordinated spam, baiting for picks, taking your heals to fight their flank, getting players behind, running 2 or 3 mans or even doing the old euro way of taking a solo to get ubers out of the way and trying to win the ensuing team fight. but most teams seem to default to the former.
13
#13
6 Frags +

Yeah, I always felt like 10 minute round times were a little too long. I think shortening the round time to like 5 minutes, (that resets after every capture) would help speed things up. I'm not saying stalemates are a huge problem, it'll just speed the game up a bit. It'll be kind of like a 24 second shot clock in basketball. I feel like it'll force plays out of teams, and shorten up some stalemates.5 minutes is enough for like 2 or 3 ubers, so its not that like teams won't have time to do stuff.

Yeah, I always felt like 10 minute round times were a little too long. I think shortening the round time to like 5 minutes, (that resets after every capture) would help speed things up. I'm not saying stalemates are a huge problem, it'll just speed the game up a bit. It'll be kind of like a 24 second shot clock in basketball. I feel like it'll force plays out of teams, and shorten up some stalemates.5 minutes is enough for like 2 or 3 ubers, so its not that like teams won't have time to do stuff.
14
#14
8 Frags +
bearodactylHildrethPlay more Koth.This. I would be eternally grateful if we could play two weeks (or more) of koth instead having to play metalworks week twice this season (puke)

Bring back inferno Kappa

[quote=bearodactyl][quote=Hildreth]Play more Koth.[/quote]
This. I would be eternally grateful if we could play two weeks (or more) of koth instead having to play metalworks week twice this season (puke)[/quote]

Bring back inferno Kappa
15
#15
21 Frags +

the following maps are goat tier and should come back

koth_ashville
cp_yukon
cp_gravelpit

that is all

the following maps are goat tier and should come back

koth_ashville
cp_yukon
cp_gravelpit

that is all
16
#16
15 Frags +

A/D isn't that much fun to play.

A/D isn't that much fun to play.
17
#17
45 Frags +
shorasA/D isn't that much fun to play.

maybe if ur a bitch

[quote=shoras]A/D isn't that much fun to play.[/quote]

maybe if ur a bitch
18
#18
1 Frags +

I'm curious what would happen if captures only added time to the clock if you didn't already own mid

I'm curious what would happen if captures only added time to the clock if you didn't already own mid
19
#19
-3 Frags +

If this is something that could work there needs to be some sort of punishment for one team when the round timer ends (i.e. whoever has most cp's when the round timer ends takes the whole round) , otherwise some teams may deliberately not push in order to reset a shitty round for them. Reducing the round timer + cap bonuses would make the game more intense i feel.

If this is something that could work there needs to be some sort of punishment for one team when the round timer ends (i.e. whoever has most cp's when the round timer ends takes the whole round) , otherwise some teams may deliberately not push in order to reset a shitty round for them. Reducing the round timer + cap bonuses would make the game more intense i feel.
20
#20
0 Frags +
LysolYeah, I always felt like 10 minute round times were a little too long. I think shortening the round time to like 5 minutes, (that resets after every capture) would help speed things up. I'm not saying stalemates are a huge problem, it'll just speed the game up a bit. It'll be kind of like a 24 second shot clock in basketball. I feel like it'll force plays out of teams, and shorten up some stalemates.5 minutes is enough for like 2 or 3 ubers, so its not that like teams won't have time to do stuff.

I think if we did 5 minutes it would be too short for teams to have enough opportunities to push last or push out of last. Also it would be too fast that i feel that would cut the flow of the game more than what 10 minute timer would do already.

[quote=Lysol]Yeah, I always felt like 10 minute round times were a little too long. I think shortening the round time to like 5 minutes, (that resets after every capture) would help speed things up. I'm not saying stalemates are a huge problem, it'll just speed the game up a bit. It'll be kind of like a 24 second shot clock in basketball. I feel like it'll force plays out of teams, and shorten up some stalemates.5 minutes is enough for like 2 or 3 ubers, so its not that like teams won't have time to do stuff.[/quote]

I think if we did 5 minutes it would be too short for teams to have enough opportunities to push last or push out of last. Also it would be too fast that i feel that would cut the flow of the game more than what 10 minute timer would do already.
21
#21
2 Frags +

lysol is talking about round times when they reset after a cap being 5 mins (which isnt a new idea but ive never seen it tested), not your idea of having 5 minutes for a round.

lysol is talking about round times when they reset after a cap being 5 mins (which isnt a new idea but ive never seen it tested), not your idea of having 5 minutes for a round.
22
#22
0 Frags +
PontI think if we put in a 10 minute round timer, teams will just turtle up on last if they lose mid and refuse to push until the round ends. 10 minute timers could actually have a reverse effect on what we're trying to accomplish?

10 minutes is a lot of time so if they do park the bus on last they would just only put themselves at risk of losing anyways, and 10 minutes is hard to defend if the other team knows you are going to do that for the remainder of the time. Also teams would do/do it anyway with more time so this just gives more chances. If a team can't cap last after so many times then it's their bad, if a team loses cause they refused to try to go out of last, it's their bad again.

Also i feel that this would give teams more chances to practice how to fight in a uber v uber situation, try pushing even with equal player advantage etc.

domthewhiteguylysol is talking about round times when they reset after a cap being 5 mins (which isnt a new idea but ive never seen it tested), not your idea of having 5 minutes for a round.

what's the difference between round times and time in a round? i don't understand

HildrethPlay more Koth.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ We need more koth maps

[quote=Pont]I think if we put in a 10 minute round timer, teams will just turtle up on last if they lose mid and refuse to push until the round ends. 10 minute timers could actually have a reverse effect on what we're trying to accomplish?[/quote]

10 minutes is a lot of time so if they do park the bus on last they would just only put themselves at risk of losing anyways, and 10 minutes is hard to defend if the other team knows you are going to do that for the remainder of the time. Also teams would do/do it anyway with more time so this just gives more chances. If a team can't cap last after so many times then it's their bad, if a team loses cause they refused to try to go out of last, it's their bad again.

Also i feel that this would give teams more chances to practice how to fight in a uber v uber situation, try pushing even with equal player advantage etc.

[quote=domthewhiteguy]lysol is talking about round times when they reset after a cap being 5 mins (which isnt a new idea but ive never seen it tested), not your idea of having 5 minutes for a round.[/quote]

what's the difference between round times and time in a round? i don't understand

[quote=Hildreth]Play more Koth.[/quote]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ We need more koth maps
23
#23
7 Frags +

if i understand correctly, your idea is that each round in the game is 10 mins and if a team doesnt cap last they start a new mid after the 10 mins regardless of whether a team is in the middle of pushing out or into last.

currently when you cap a point the timer resets to 10 mins to push the next point and if no point gets capped the round resets. hes saying the time should be 5 mins instead of 10 which i think is a good idea. it gives enough time for teams to get 2-3 decent pushes into a point in without having these prolonged stalemates.

if i understand correctly, your idea is that each round in the game is 10 mins and if a team doesnt cap last they start a new mid after the 10 mins regardless of whether a team is in the middle of pushing out or into last.

currently when you cap a point the timer resets to 10 mins to push the next point and if no point gets capped the round resets. hes saying the time should be 5 mins instead of 10 which i think is a good idea. it gives enough time for teams to get 2-3 decent pushes into a point in without having these prolonged stalemates.
24
#24
-11 Frags +

ok more mids is good nut again this people overestimate how drastic it is

i feel like all this ideas are either from people who onlywatch games, play prem, play granary week, or Slin

my proposition is to remove ubers from spectator hud, maybe even health - let casters and people feel the intrigue

ok more mids is good nut again this people overestimate how drastic it is

i feel like all this ideas are either from people who onlywatch games, play prem, play granary week, or Slin

my proposition is to remove ubers from spectator hud, maybe even health - let casters and people feel the intrigue
25
#25
11 Frags +

what

what
26
#26
8 Frags +

It's kind of funny how creative teams can be with their strats/executes in a comparatively much slower game like csgo with only 1:45 but somehow in 5cp teams need a full 10 minutes per point to execute a push.

lucrativethe 5cp meta is fine and everyone who thinks that stalemates are a result of the game mode you're just wrong. Trying to force stalemates out of the meta is a lost cause considering it is a strategy that was developed by players, not by the design of he gamemode (this is why 10 minute stalemate timer is included in the gamemode).

5cp isn't inherently stalematey but it is very poorly balanced. The way the gamemode functions now is that it heavily favors team sitting on a round advantage and making low risk high reward plays. This results in the game stalemating for a vast majority of the map. Dry pushing/making aggressive flanks and sacks are not incentivized at all until near the end the map when the team with a round deficit is forced to push. It's pretty silly that if you have a round advantage you can just choose to jerk off on cloak and dagger for a third of the map. Time is running out? Just give up the point and let the game stalemate more or go for a last minute push before time runs out. Doesn't seem like a very balanced gamemode to me.

I feel like shorter round timers would be better overall but 5cp will always be comparatively slower to koth (which is fine) 5cp is fun to play but not very balanced in the current meta imo.

It's kind of funny how creative teams can be with their strats/executes in a comparatively much slower game like csgo with only 1:45 but somehow in 5cp teams need a full 10 minutes per point to execute a push.

[quote=lucrative]the 5cp meta is fine and everyone who thinks that stalemates are a result of the game mode you're just wrong. Trying to force stalemates out of the meta is a lost cause considering it is a strategy that was developed by players, not by the design of he gamemode (this is why 10 minute stalemate timer is included in the gamemode).[/quote] 5cp isn't inherently stalematey but it is very poorly balanced. The way the gamemode functions now is that it heavily favors team sitting on a round advantage and making low risk high reward plays. This results in the game stalemating for a vast majority of the map. Dry pushing/making aggressive flanks and sacks are not incentivized at all until near the end the map when the team with a round deficit is forced to push. It's pretty silly that if you have a round advantage you can just choose to jerk off on cloak and dagger for a third of the map. Time is running out? Just give up the point and let the game stalemate more or go for a last minute push before time runs out. Doesn't seem like a very balanced gamemode to me.

I feel like shorter round timers would be better overall but 5cp will always be comparatively slower to koth (which is fine) 5cp is fun to play but not very balanced in the current meta imo.
27
#27
5 Frags +

The biggest problem is the people who don't want to push until it is sure they can take the point, (i.e 3 players up + uber ad). If there was a way to add more incentive to push out of last or onto other points it could make it better, stalemates would be less prevalent. The gamemode itself isn't stalematey, it just makes too much sense to revolve metas into it, and when there is money on the line (such as major lan's or championships) it is easier to be up 2 rounds and not risk a backcap or missed sticky trap dropping your combo.

Also SHORTER ROUND TIMERS WOULD SUCK! You have second point and don't want to push mid, feed a couple players and let the other team capture the point, reset the round timer, hold the other point and try and stalemate it out b/c u have rounds up.

The reward system is probably the best way of preventing this so called "stalemate" that does happen at the highest level of play, but stalemates can be intense if teams choose to make every advantage count, making it more punishing. But due to the "park-the-bus-and-win" strat, it is hard to facilitate these types of pushes. If someone could figure out a type of reward i feel like it would be the best way to make the game mode more interesting and more rewarding to aggressive strategies.

The biggest problem is the people who don't want to push until it is sure they can take the point, (i.e 3 players up + uber ad). If there was a way to add more incentive to push out of last or onto other points it could make it better, stalemates would be less prevalent. The gamemode itself isn't stalematey, it just makes too much sense to revolve metas into it, and when there is money on the line (such as major lan's or championships) it is easier to be up 2 rounds and not risk a backcap or missed sticky trap dropping your combo.

Also SHORTER ROUND TIMERS WOULD SUCK! You have second point and don't want to push mid, feed a couple players and let the other team capture the point, reset the round timer, hold the other point and try and stalemate it out b/c u have rounds up.

The reward system is probably the best way of preventing this so called "stalemate" that does happen at the highest level of play, but stalemates can be intense if teams choose to make every advantage count, making it more punishing. But due to the "park-the-bus-and-win" strat, it is hard to facilitate these types of pushes. If someone could figure out a type of reward i feel like it would be the best way to make the game mode more interesting and more rewarding to aggressive strategies.
28
#28
-8 Frags +

Make A/D Great Again

Make A/D Great Again
29
#29
13 Frags +

People please! You can't just strap a timer on things an expect them to work better! We've been over this!

People please! You can't just strap a timer on things an expect them to work better! We've been over this!
30
#30
-3 Frags +

i think that if scout was less good at fucking me in the ass there would be less stalemates

i think that if scout was less good at fucking me in the ass there would be less stalemates
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