less spam?
black box exists to spam
you get 15 health from doing 20 damage across the map
less clip doesn't matter if you're not in a fight
you have more mobility since you can heal 80% of a jump w/ 1 rocket w/o packs or taking heals
but yeah your bombs are shitty
less spam?
black box exists to spam
you get 15 health from doing 20 damage across the map
less clip doesn't matter if you're not in a fight
you have more mobility since you can heal 80% of a jump w/ 1 rocket w/o packs or taking heals
but yeah your bombs are shitty
freakinRadmanYou can make a case for literally everything slowing down the game, or being a crutch. Its starting to get grating to hear it non-stop.
make a case for kritz slowing down game plz
: "make a case for kritz slowing down game plz "
: it makes your team way more scared to push -> you camp/turtle instead
: engie is best class against kritz and sentries only slow the game down
: the other team is forced to go uber instead which takes longer to charge and they won't push out until it's charged
No it doesnt actually work that way in game, but thats pretty much the arguments about jarate slowing down the game.
[quote=freakin][quote=Radman]You can make a case for literally everything slowing down the game, or being a crutch. Its starting to get grating to hear it non-stop.[/quote]
make a case for kritz slowing down game plz[/quote]
: "make a case for kritz slowing down game plz "
: it makes your team way more scared to push -> you camp/turtle instead
: engie is best class against kritz and sentries only slow the game down
: the other team is forced to go uber instead which takes longer to charge and they won't push out until it's charged
No it doesnt actually work that way in game, but thats pretty much the arguments about jarate slowing down the game.
yes you can make a case for everything slowing down the game but some things slow things down further than what is already necessary/balanced/fun. the goal shouldn't be to have a super fast paced game, the goal should be to have a nice balance of all the elements tf2 has to offer. the beauty of tf2 is that each class is completely different with their own strengths and weaknesses and the best teams are the ones that know how to fill each others weaknesses with their own strengths, the demo class fulfills the role of slowing down the enemy team quite well, that is why he is limited to 1 per team and why there shouldn't be other classes that fulfill that role. otherwise we'd just ban demo; would that make the game more fast paced? for sure. will it make it a better, more diverse game? no. the roamer class is unique in the sense of it's mobility/fluidity/bombing capabilities and that role needs to be fulfilled over having another class that slows down the game.
yes you can make a case for everything slowing down the game but some things slow things down further than what is already necessary/balanced/fun. the goal shouldn't be to have a super fast paced game, the goal should be to have a nice balance of all the elements tf2 has to offer. the beauty of tf2 is that each class is completely different with their own strengths and weaknesses and the best teams are the ones that know how to fill each others weaknesses with their own strengths, the demo class fulfills the role of slowing down the enemy team quite well, that is why he is limited to 1 per team and why there shouldn't be other classes that fulfill that role. otherwise we'd just ban demo; would that make the game more fast paced? for sure. will it make it a better, more diverse game? no. the roamer class is unique in the sense of it's mobility/fluidity/bombing capabilities and that role needs to be fulfilled over having another class that slows down the game.
Making a case for something to be banned because it potentially slows down the game is asinine, especially if it's something you see in one out of every 50 matches. If suddenly every team started using blackbox and a ton of games were getting stalemated by it (ie. double heavy) then sure, I could see it as an issue. Saying "but it could slow the game down a bit" is a terrible argument without some strong evidence to back it up.
I know I'm only playing in open, but for me running the blackbox has opened up a really fun playstyle; I'm actually more aggressive on the flank, because I know I can easily retreat and gain some health back if a fight goes south. Plus, I have more kill potential with a shotgun against scouts who like to dance around splash damage.
Making a case for something to be banned because it [u]potentially[/u] slows down the game is asinine, especially if it's something you see in one out of every 50 matches. If suddenly every team started using blackbox and a ton of games were getting stalemated by it (ie. double heavy) then sure, I could see it as an issue. Saying "but it could slow the game down a bit" is a terrible argument without some strong evidence to back it up.
I know I'm only playing in open, but for me running the blackbox has opened up a really fun playstyle; I'm actually more aggressive on the flank, because I know I can easily retreat and gain some health back if a fight goes south. Plus, I have more kill potential with a shotgun against scouts who like to dance around splash damage.
i can't exactly show you graphs, statistics and charts but it doesn't take a genius to understand why blackbox slows down the game, it's properties encourage sit-and-spam tactics and essentially gives it's wielder more hp. it slows down the game in the same way, but not to the same degree, as heavy slows down the game due to his hp; it makes it's wielder more difficult to kill. it also let's you get away with easy 1v1s even if the other guy hit all of his shots and that kind of situation should never be happening in a competitive game; it's just a dumb mechanic. i'm talking in extremes to prove a point; of course blackbox isn't going to drastically slow down the game but every step in that direction is the wrong one if you want to foster a good competitive environment.
i can't exactly show you graphs, statistics and charts but it doesn't take a genius to understand why blackbox slows down the game, it's properties encourage sit-and-spam tactics and essentially gives it's wielder more hp. it slows down the game in the same way, but not to the same degree, as heavy slows down the game due to his hp; it makes it's wielder more difficult to kill. it also let's you get away with easy 1v1s even if the other guy hit all of his shots and that kind of situation should never be happening in a competitive game; it's just a dumb mechanic. i'm talking in extremes to prove a point; of course blackbox isn't going to drastically slow down the game but every step in that direction is the wrong one if you want to foster a good competitive environment.
Why is slowing the game down the microscopic amount the BB does a bad thing, though? I mean, if it was as good at slowing things down as the QF, or double Heavy, or some super crazy triple Engineer extravaganza, it would definitely be a problem, but as you said it's not to that degree. A little bit of slowness shouldn't be met with "omfg ban it it ruins the game!!1".
Why is slowing the game down the microscopic amount the BB does a bad thing, though? I mean, if it was as good at slowing things down as the QF, or double Heavy, or some super crazy triple Engineer extravaganza, it would definitely be a problem, but as you said it's not to that degree. A little bit of slowness shouldn't be met with "omfg ban it it ruins the game!!1".
if scouts are the fastest class, every other class should be banned because other classes aren't as fast as the fastest class (scout) and not being as fast as the fastest class means you're not going as fast as possible which is slowing the game down
if scouts are the fastest class, every other class should be banned because other classes aren't as fast as the fastest class (scout) and not being as fast as the fastest class means you're not going as fast as possible which is slowing the game down
hoolii can not exactly show you graphs, statistics and charts but it does not take a genius to understand why blackbox slows down the game, it is properties encourage sit-and-spam tactics and essentially gives it is wielder more hp. it slows down the game in the same way, but not to the same degree, as heavy slows down the game due to his hp; it makes it is wielder more difficult to kill. it also let us you get away with easy 1v1s even if the other guy hit all of his shots and that kind of situation should never be happening in a competitive game; it is just a dumb mechanic. i am talking in extremes to prove a point; of course blackbox is not going to drastically slow down the game but every step in that direction is the wrong one if you want to foster a good competitive environment.
Sometimes it is fun to replace contractions with the words they represent. I hereby revoke hooli's right to call a post 'garbage'.
[quote=hooli]i can not exactly show you graphs, statistics and charts but it does not take a genius to understand why blackbox slows down the game, it is properties encourage sit-and-spam tactics and essentially gives it is wielder more hp. it slows down the game in the same way, but not to the same degree, as heavy slows down the game due to his hp; it makes it is wielder more difficult to kill. it also let us you get away with easy 1v1s even if the other guy hit all of his shots and that kind of situation should never be happening in a competitive game; it is just a dumb mechanic. i am talking in extremes to prove a point; of course blackbox is not going to drastically slow down the game but every step in that direction is the wrong one if you want to foster a good competitive environment.[/quote]
Sometimes it is fun to replace contractions with the words they represent. I hereby revoke hooli's right to call a post 'garbage'.
Ggglygyif scouts are the fastest class, every other class should be banned because other classes aren't as fast as the fastest class (scout) and not being as fast as the fastest class means you're not going as fast as possible which is slowing the game down
do you think you're being clever or something?
you clearly didn't read #63
[quote=Ggglygy]if scouts are the fastest class, every other class should be banned because other classes aren't as fast as the fastest class (scout) and not being as fast as the fastest class means you're not going as fast as possible which is slowing the game down[/quote]
do you think you're being clever or something?
you clearly didn't read #63
clearly.
the second you start talking about a "role that needs to be fulfilled" means you regard anything that doesn't conform to your idea of MUH METAGAME as being completely unacceptable in any role.
like I said previously, BB gives you weaker bombs but a stronger presence if you can get behind and distract, that's it plain and simple. why "slowing the game down" would be you argument against bb, I have no earthly idea.
go play league of legends if you want a stale metagame chief
clearly.
the second you start talking about a "role that needs to be fulfilled" means you regard anything that doesn't conform to your idea of MUH METAGAME as being completely unacceptable in any role.
like I said previously, BB gives you weaker bombs but a stronger presence if you can get behind and distract, that's it plain and simple. why "slowing the game down" would be you argument against bb, I have no earthly idea.
go play league of legends if you want a stale metagame chief
I think the whole, "it slows the game down so it's terrible" argument is flawed and is just plain silly. There are core mechanics in this game that slow it down; uber, stickies, etc. You can slow the game down with four rockets when your team loses a fight by bombing with ideal timing and killing or forcing the medic. You can slow the game down by running a heavy. You can slow the game down a hundred different ways. What about the other side of the coin?
You say a soldier running the black box slows the game down because it caters to sitting back and spamming. In most situations when you find a black box soldier holding back and spamming, it's incredibly likely that he would be doing that with the stock RL as well. You say it slows down the game because it lets you win 1v1s you otherwise would not win. I say that speeds up the game because now your team has a pick with which you're able to apply more pressure.
You might say it discourages taking a fight because you have fewer rockets loaded. I'll say it encourages you to take that fight because with 2-3 rockets, you are going to gain 30-45hp during the fight, which means a scout can no longer kill you in two shots--the same for a soldier. You might say you will be less likely to bomb the medic because you'll only have two rockets loaded. I say you'll be just as likely to go for that play since the probability is high that you'll hit multiple targets with each rocket, giving you an extra 45-135hp, and making the 'bomb in, fire one rocket, jump away, reload, repeat' plays more successful, often enabling your team to push sooner.
Getting behind the enemy with black box can be devastating since you have a better chance fending off a buffed scout (who you can kill with 2-3 rockets, yet it will take him 3 perfect shots or 6 decent shots to kill you). This will encourage the enemy to send two players to deal with you instead of one, which, once again, enhances your team's ability to push, thus making the game faster.
So yes, the black box can certainly slow down the game, but it can also speed the game up. It just depends on your perspective.
Having said all that, it's a silly weapon with a silly model, a silly sound effect, and it makes soldiers live way too long, so I think it should be banned.
I think the whole, "it slows the game down so it's terrible" argument is flawed and is just plain silly. There are core mechanics in this game that slow it down; uber, stickies, etc. You can slow the game down with four rockets when your team loses a fight by bombing with ideal timing and killing or forcing the medic. You can slow the game down by running a heavy. You can slow the game down a hundred different ways. What about the other side of the coin?
You say a soldier running the black box slows the game down because it caters to sitting back and spamming. In most situations when you find a black box soldier holding back and spamming, it's incredibly likely that he would be doing that with the stock RL as well. You say it slows down the game because it lets you win 1v1s you otherwise would not win. I say that speeds up the game because now your team has a pick with which you're able to apply more pressure.
You might say it discourages taking a fight because you have fewer rockets loaded. I'll say it encourages you to take that fight because with 2-3 rockets, you are going to gain 30-45hp during the fight, which means a scout can no longer kill you in two shots--the same for a soldier. You might say you will be less likely to bomb the medic because you'll only have two rockets loaded. I say you'll be just as likely to go for that play since the probability is high that you'll hit multiple targets with each rocket, giving you an extra 45-135hp, and making the 'bomb in, fire one rocket, jump away, reload, repeat' plays more successful, often enabling your team to push sooner.
Getting behind the enemy with black box can be devastating since you have a better chance fending off a buffed scout (who you can kill with 2-3 rockets, yet it will take him 3 perfect shots or 6 decent shots to kill you). This will encourage the enemy to send two players to deal with you instead of one, which, once again, enhances your team's ability to push, thus making the game faster.
So yes, the black box can certainly slow down the game, but it can also speed the game up. It just depends on your perspective.
Having said all that, it's a silly weapon with a silly model, a silly sound effect, and it makes soldiers live way too long, so I think it should be banned.
Ggglygythe second you start talking about a "role that needs to be fulfilled" means you regard anything that doesn't conform to your idea of MUH METAGAME as being completely unacceptable in any role.
no that is not what that means, i'm just expressing my opinion.
let's pretend for a moment that it doesn't slow down the game. does a weapon that allows you win 1v1s that you otherwise would not win sound like something that belongs in a competitive game? does that sound like something that fosters an environment that rewards skill? it should be banned for that reason alone. would it make you feel better if i said "in my opinion"?
smaka, nice non-garbage post. as you say, it keeps the soldier alive for far too long and that is my reasoning for why it slows down the game. maybe i needed to be a little more explicit to get my point across.
[quote=Ggglygy]the second you start talking about a "role that needs to be fulfilled" means you regard anything that doesn't conform to your idea of MUH METAGAME as being completely unacceptable in any role.[/quote]
no that is not what that means, i'm just expressing my opinion.
let's pretend for a moment that it doesn't slow down the game. does a weapon that allows you win 1v1s that you otherwise would not win sound like something that belongs in a competitive game? does that sound like something that fosters an environment that rewards skill? it should be banned for that reason alone. would it make you feel better if i said "in my opinion"?
smaka, nice non-garbage post. as you say, it keeps the soldier alive for far too long and that is my reasoning for why it slows down the game. maybe i needed to be a little more explicit to get my point across.
hoolilet's pretend for a moment that it doesn't slow down the game. does a weapon that allows you win 1v1s that you otherwise would not win sound like something that belongs in a competitive game?
running shotgun as a roamer allows you to win 1v1's you would not normally win.
just please stop and say something like "hurr i was just trolling all along!"
[quote=hooli]
let's pretend for a moment that it doesn't slow down the game. does a weapon that allows you win 1v1s that you otherwise would not win sound like something that belongs in a competitive game?[/quote]
running shotgun as a roamer allows you to win 1v1's you would not normally win.
just please stop and say something like "hurr i was just trolling all along!"
that's true except you'll probably have less health(no boats) and less opportunities for 1v1s considering you'll have poor mobility but that's not what we're talking about here
allow me to help you visualize:
soldier v soldier
same health
each shoots 3 rockets
the one with the better aim should win
that's that
that's true except you'll probably have less health(no boats) and less opportunities for 1v1s considering you'll have poor mobility but that's not what we're talking about here
allow me to help you visualize:
soldier v soldier
same health
each shoots 3 rockets
the one with the better aim should win
that's that
That's assuming both soldiers are hitting 3 100 damage rockets in row, and I don't know about you but that's not exactly a normal situation..
That's assuming both soldiers are hitting 3 100 damage rockets in row, and I don't know about you but that's not exactly a [b]normal[/b] situation..
hoolithat's true except you'll probably have less health(no boats) and less opportunities for 1v1s considering you'll have poor mobility but that's not what we're talking about here
allow me to help you visualize:
soldier v soldier
same health
each shoots 3 rockets
the one with the better aim should win
that's that
I don't understand this logic.
If both soldiers shoot 3 rockets, assuming they both hit directs, they both die.
One of them had the sense to run black box, they barely live (~30 hp?)
If both soldiers shoot 3 rockets, one of them hits 2 directs, he wins.
If he had the black box, he had the better aim, he wins.
If he did not have the black box, he had the better aim, he wins.
I'm failing to see the issue there.
[quote=hooli]that's true except you'll probably have less health(no boats) and less opportunities for 1v1s considering you'll have poor mobility but that's not what we're talking about here
allow me to help you visualize:
soldier v soldier
same health
each shoots 3 rockets
the one with the better aim should win
that's that[/quote]
I don't understand this logic.
If both soldiers shoot 3 rockets, assuming they both hit directs, they both die.
One of them had the sense to run black box, they barely live (~30 hp?)
If both soldiers shoot 3 rockets, one of them hits 2 directs, he wins.
If he had the black box, he had the better aim, he wins.
If he did not have the black box, he had the better aim, he wins.
I'm failing to see the issue there.
let's not get into specific scenarios, there are an infinite number of possibilities with countless parameters that decide who the victor is. you guys are assuming the exchange is happening at close range and both soldiers have godlike aim.
let's not get into specific scenarios, there are an infinite number of possibilities with countless parameters that decide who the victor is. you guys are assuming the exchange is happening at close range and both soldiers have godlike aim.
hoolilet's not get into specific scenarios, there are an infinite number of possibilities with countless parameters that decide who the victor is. you guys are assuming the exchange is happening at close range and both soldiers have godlike aim.
Which is the exact scenario you're laying out. Nine times out of ten, the better soldier will win the trade, black box or not.
[quote=hooli]let's not get into specific scenarios, there are an infinite number of possibilities with countless parameters that decide who the victor is. you guys are assuming the exchange is happening at close range and both soldiers have godlike aim.[/quote]
Which is the exact scenario you're laying out. Nine times out of ten, the better soldier will win the trade, black box or not.
that is not the exact scenario i laid out
i did not specify their health, how far apart they were from each other or how good their dm is
while you are right it doesn't matter some of the time, you admit yourself that sometimes the bb soldier will win because of the regained health.
that is not the exact scenario i laid out
i did not specify their health, how far apart they were from each other or how good their dm is
while you are right it doesn't matter some of the time, you admit yourself that sometimes the bb soldier will win because of the regained health.
chance does not belong in a competitive environment.
chance does not belong in a competitive environment.
hoolilet's not get into specific scenarios
hooliallow me to help you visualize:
soldier v soldier
same health
each shoots 3 rockets
the one with the better aim should win
that's that
jesus christ
[quote=hooli]let's not get into specific scenarios[/quote]
[quote=hooli]
allow me to help you visualize:
soldier v soldier
same health
each shoots 3 rockets
the one with the better aim should win
that's that[/quote]
jesus christ
that's not a specific scenario
that's not a specific scenario
hooliwhile you are right it doesn't matter some of the time, you admit yourself that sometimes the bb soldier will win because of the regained health.
Yes, which is why he sacrifices his 4th rocket. It's a team game, not 1v1; even if he does win the trade, the other team can easily clean him up before he gets away and he won't have anything to defend himself with. If you don't get him, then your soldier shouldn't have been there in the first place.
You've made two arguments:
1. Slows the game down, which is purely subjective in this case and depends entirely on playstyle, not to mention it has a minimal impact on the game anyway.
2. A worse player can win with it, which will only happen in the rarest of scenarios, and it's not because they have the black box, it's because the "better" player messed up. Not to mention, if you know the other soldier has black box (pretty hard not to), you can make sure you're never in a position to lose to him 1v1.
[quote=hooli]while you are right it doesn't matter some of the time, you admit yourself that sometimes the bb soldier will win because of the regained health.[/quote]
Yes, which is why he sacrifices his 4th rocket. It's a team game, not 1v1; even if he does win the trade, the other team can easily clean him up before he gets away and he won't have anything to defend himself with. If you don't get him, then your soldier shouldn't have been there in the first place.
You've made two arguments:
1. Slows the game down, which is purely subjective in this case and depends entirely on playstyle, not to mention it has a minimal impact on the game anyway.
2. A worse player can win with it, which will only happen in the rarest of scenarios, and it's not because they have the black box, it's because the "better" player messed up. Not to mention, if you know the other soldier has black box (pretty hard not to), you can make sure you're never in a position to lose to him 1v1.
hoolithat's not a specific scenario
Please explain how both weapons dealing the same damage, with one of them having predictable differences (one less rocket to shoot, +15 hp on hit), is chance.
[quote=hooli]that's not a specific scenario[/quote]
Please explain how both weapons dealing the same damage, with one of them having predictable differences (one less rocket to shoot, +15 hp on hit), is chance.
if you start a 1v1 with a bb soldier, you both hit 3 directs, and you die, it's your fault
its almost like you have to adapt and change your playstyle vs a blackbox soldier, dont just +forward into him, die because he gets healed for 45 and think "WTF he survived what a stupid weapon". you died because you weren't thinking.
if you start a 1v1 with a bb soldier, you both hit 3 directs, and you die, it's your fault
its almost like you have to [b]adapt[/b] and change your playstyle vs a blackbox soldier, dont just +forward into him, die because he gets healed for 45 and think "WTF he survived what a stupid weapon". you died because you weren't thinking.
synchroNine times out of ten, the better soldier will win the trade
this is what i was referring to, the better soldier should win every time
[quote=synchro]Nine times out of ten, the better soldier will win the trade[/quote]
this is what i was referring to, the better soldier should win every time
hoolisynchroNine times out of ten, the better soldier will win the trade
this is what i was referring to, the better soldier should win every time
But that doesn't happen even when both sollies use the stock launcher.
[quote=hooli][quote=synchro]Nine times out of ten, the better soldier will win the trade[/quote]
this is what i was referring to, the better soldier should win every time[/quote]
But that doesn't happen even when both sollies use the stock launcher.
Lunacideif you start a 1v1 with a bb soldier, you both hit 3 directs, and you die, it's your fault
its almost like you have to adapt and change your playstyle vs a blackbox soldier, dont just +forward into him, die because he gets healed for 45 and think "WTF he survived what a stupid weapon". you died because you weren't thinking.
yeah, i'm all about adapting. but what if you had no prior knowledge that he was running black box? are you still an idiot? or are you simply unfortunate?
[quote=Lunacide]if you start a 1v1 with a bb soldier, you both hit 3 directs, and you die, it's your fault
its almost like you have to [b]adapt[/b] and change your playstyle vs a blackbox soldier, dont just +forward into him, die because he gets healed for 45 and think "WTF he survived what a stupid weapon". you died because you weren't thinking.[/quote]
yeah, i'm all about adapting. but what if you had no prior knowledge that he was running black box? are you still an idiot? or are you simply unfortunate?
listen folks im not saying the bb is OP
all i'm saying is that in a perfect world the guy who hit more of his shots should win
listen folks im not saying the bb is OP
all i'm saying is that in a perfect world the guy who hit more of his shots should win