This map looks very big. Is this map very big?

Walking in a straight line from red's last point to blu's last point on this map is about 8,000 hammer units by the shortest route possible. By comparison, Granary is about 10,000 hammer units to walk the same distance.

those train tracks
they better have trains

I think it will feel bigger because you don't walk to mid in a straight line. Might put it on my server and play on it with friends these days.

what

Hoovy fastest class.

he's referring to the time on the round timer that is displayed when you reach mid, counting down from 10:00 when the round starts.

aka, scout takes 18 seconds to get there, medic 20, sniper/pyro/engi/spy 22, heavy 26 seconds

I made a quick snapshot comparing last and second on granary and my map, so you can see the scale.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/48151262/granaryvsnightwatch.jpg

Ah. That makes a lot more sense.

Compare scout on badlands @ 9:42 and scout on granary @ 9:37

last is long as granary but with defense having a height advantage too :(

IMO, the mid seems way to small for demos to really have a fight at mid... looks like scouts and soldiers are going to destroy on this map

Edit:

If you plan on trying to make it better for demos, try offsetting the two buildings at mid.

So instead of them being parallel make them diagonal, that way there is a longer sight line for demos to spam.

Mid looks quite a bit like freight mid

looks pretty good for 72 hours

Train tracks have a very annoying tendency to eat explosion damage, so if you put them in just for show it could lead to problems(Badlands mid). But if they are there for an actual train then it's cool

they're noclipped

I believe the bulletblock texture would make this a non-issue (Badlands uses playerclip for that area). If I remember correctly, it also blocks projectiles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ieiZbD-RxI

Poorly recorded rollout video (fraps hates me)

yeeeeeee
das good

thats a fun looking rollout damn

Not exactly a great example of the rollout, you can do the first jump easily without taking fall damage. There's also another jump you can do if you go flank that takes you around mid and into their choke.

disclaimer: i'm not a map expert at all, some of this may sound stupid to map experts, this is just my impression after jumping around on a single player server for a while.

I really think mid needs at least one small pack, either where my crosshair is or where I'm standing, and one under (in the center of the map?) couldn't hurt

Also unless you take a 3rd jump there's really nothing to sticky off as demo where you get there

Last could use another entrance, where I'm pointing is an idea, idk if it would work.

these should probably be one, seems to happen a lot throughout the map with ammo.

Make a ledge for meds to jump on to?

Looks like a great map overall though, good luck with it

Problem: If your team wins mid with a wipe and your whole team stacks 2nd while a scout caps mid, a roamer can do a series of wall jumps to last letting him paintrain cap when the enemy team spawns. You should turn up the spawn time for last. Or, make it slightly more difficult for roamer to do it. If you want I can provide a video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOX3cSRR66Q

Same general rollout as Demo, i'm super terribad at demo jumping. Also forgot to turn viewmodels back on in the recording.

the lobby feels a bit too claustrophobic, the dropdown could be moved to the unit next to it and the room in general feels to low

as of now you need to establish chokepoints because as of it seems sort of roll-y

You cant really contest 2nd after you lose mid, assuming you backed out early, you cant hold the choke on mid, a roamer could grab so much power from just jumping through there onto spire. On top of that there's no way to contest 2nd from lobby whatsoever. Lobby needs to be spread out, it should have more power instead of being a box in a canyon with a maze in it, most maps have lobbies that work against the terrain.

I actually feel like a section of the low mid rooms wwould be a better lobby for 2nd -> last than the on thats already there now

Below mid should be a sightline straight across mid IMO, an scout that goes lower is going to catch a 1v1 or get the biggest flank in the world. Like badlands you can watch lower then jump back into the midfight but with this it seems like when you come back from watching lower youre going to be flanking the entire team. Below mid just feels really over complicated

The other spawn door is easier to jump from, and you don't need to do the slide for the second jump, other than that that was what I had as well

I fuckin love slides tho

Open up the area under the middle point more. You shouldn't be able to get all the way through there unseen on a midfight.

I think you should move the choke point stairs and the house closer to middle, and relocate the forward spawn on middle so that you have fewer buildings and less space between the walk from the choke to the midpoint. That would also free up some space in the second point yard for you to build some more structures, and make the flank route a bit more connected to the valley at middle. Heres a quick edit of what I mean (I just dragged the house and the valley area a bit closer to the mid point): http://i.imgur.com/Mgodl8V.jpg.

For second, I kind of doubt a spire is going to work. I think you need to come up with some other structure for it, and you should fill out the area more.

The building that connects to last has amazing sniper sightlines from both the top and bottom entrances, and there is a lack of cover or any good forward holding positions to allow for pressuring a sniper.

The size of the last area is pretty much ripped straight from freight (yay rhymes). This might change in a later version because I felt a little uneasy with the length of the area in general and the parts with height advantage don't really blend well with the size of the area as a whole right now. It seems like this is the general consensus, so I'll have to do something about that.

This will be difficult to do while keeping the dual-bridge theme the same, but I will see what can be done. I agree that right now your options are pretty limited as a demoman.

The whole idea of the map was to rework freight so that some of the annoying things that people hated about it were fixed, and to change the theme. Freight mid has always been my own personal most-hated middle point of any 5cp, so I was trying to add a more interesting height dynamic. I'm not really sure that it worked, and it could definitely use a lot of tweaking.

I got rid of the water routes, opting to replace them with the underneath area, but while I solved the water issue I think it's just as much of a problem with really strong flanking routes.

The other thing that's missing right now is the train, but if there's enough demand I suppose I can bring it back.

I didn't clip it with anything, I just didn't use a collision model (meaning that the tracks are nonsolid and you can probably hide stickies under them).

One thing I need to fix about this map is making that jump more viable. Right now it simply takes too long in comparison to the choke route to be a good alternative. However, it would be cool if you could upload a video with some of the different areas you can go to with that rollout.

My pickup placement was really quite random and that's definitely something I need to work on fixing. I'm not sure how I feel about making another entrance to mid, but if I change the lower route underneath the point then I probably will.

I never thought of that! Thanks for bring it to my attention, a video would be helpful.

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by this, would you mind elaborating a little more?
I'm definitely going to need to open up the middle area.

I definitely agree that the choke walk is a little long and tight, I'll see what I can do to make it open right into the fight, and I wouldn't be against moving the whole thing closer to mid.

Would you feel that a gravelpit B type of building might work for second? I want to keep some height variation in the area.

Thanks everyone for the interest in this map.