at this point I'm starting to think that for 6v6 to be huge somebody is basically going to have to develop their own 6v6 tf2 rip off game with all of the features we want.

but thats never gonna happen :<

Some thoughts:

- The people who refuse to play anything but 24/7 "offclasses" aren't going to change. They're not going to play a game type where their classes are less effective than highlander. Let them have their pudding, it's fine! It's just like how people who want to play 24/7 pocket soldier aren't going to play highlander, because if their enemies are any good they're going to start getting shat on for being out of role.

- People who aren't into esports at all are probably our biggest potential spectator base. Like someone already said, we're the closest video game analog to sports like hockey and basketball. The main difference is that they can re-watch highlights right after they happen, because there are "pauses" so often. Why don't casters start to take advantage of that idea? Because the technology is so difficult. TF2 can't run backwards, and going back to an earlier point in a demo spontaneously needs the match to be reloaded and then fast forwarded. Having two cameramen run at the same time, one on a more delayed relay, and switching to the delayed cameraman to rewatch a highlight -- that's also fucking complicated, and I'm not sure if it's even possible. If we can get things like this (and that plugin that shows player highlights through walls is fucking great for this) that make the game simpler/more normal to watch when it's casted, it'll be great. Stop cycling through players one at a time, that's one of the #1 things that turns people who aren't into FPSs off from spectating them!

- Yes, getting pubs who aren't stubborn into comp in general is a good idea. Don't force feed them things like the cookie cutter setup, because when people are told what and how to do something about a game they just want to play to have fun they lock up from feedback. Lay it out to them, like: This is what the pros do! This is why the game type is set up with these classlimits and why we play on these maps! Have fun, and don't fuck up your configs! They'll figure out how to play at their skill level if they have any dedication at all, and if they won't then do you really think that force feeding them "true" 6s would have worked anyway?

- The game itself is already amazing at competitive play, we all know that. People keep suggesting things like bunnyhopping, "tiny" (read: massive) balance changes, alternative rulesets; none of that matters, all you're doing when you go on about that stuff is shedding bikes. Who cares about trivial things? People who are really into the game! Who doesn't? People we want to get into the scene! We don't need to change how the game is played to attract people, we need to be attractive to attract people. The more popular the competitions, the more normal players care about comp, the more competitive PUGs are played, the closer we get to where we want to be. Deal with the little things that get people involved in the first place, stop taking the supposed effects of game changes into brand new contexts.

- Can we get some more people casting random matches? IRC PUGs, inhouse PUGs, scrims, whatever. Right now it's like: every time there's a major cast, it's an event of itself, but I don't remember the last time I've seen someone casting a minor game. Why would you cast a bad game, though? Because they teamplay is simpler. You don't have people doing things on the edge of the game's meta all the time, and since the game isn't meta-oriented like DotA those aren't going to attract new blood to the scene. If you get Open/IM casts running at random times on random days, and you get exposure to each one as it's going on wherever on the internet (even if it's just a post on 4chan, or a reddit submission, or getting a link posted in some IRC channel where the peeps aren't pricks) you're going to get more people aware of the game and the next time they hear of it they'll mentally process the idea "Someone's shoutcasting TF2"

What can we do about the bad demo or spectator system though?

(pretty much nothing sadly)

Honestly I don't think level's of production are going to massively increase viewer numbers. I can't say I watch any game just because the streamer provides instant replays, or because it's 1080p instead of 720p, or because of cool overlays, video effects, or studio audio quality.

The problem is the product. We enjoy playing it but what we enjoy in TF2 is different to what the vast majority of TF2 players enjoy. Honestly I think we have two options with this game. One being to continue as we are. Does TF2 really need to be a professional eSport? Isn't it just fine how it is with our tight community, decent coverage scene etc?
Maybe we should focus our efforts on improving how we interact with sponsors, approaching companies with well presented documentation on how they would see a return on their investment if they sponsored our online tournaments. If we put some serious effort into showing how much we appreciate sponsorship for our game, we might attract larger sponsorship deals and have more 'intense' tournaments with more money on the line.

The second option is a complete rework of the competitive TF2 game. TF2 as it is will not become a top tier eSport. Does it have the potential to be one? It's hard to say but the path we are on now is a definite no. Of course, a complete rework of TF2 could be its competitive death. Existing competitive players might not like the 'new game', and casual players might just remain casual. It would be a high risk, high reward option. I'm talking drastic changes like reducing team size down to 5 (in line with other eSports team games), modifying class limits and unlocks to incorporate more diversity, changing the primary map pool to feature the most popular casual maps.

Even to me, (a guy who loves unlocks, offclassing etc..), that second option sounds pretty shit, but if we want TF2 to be a recognised eSport, we are going to need the casual gamers to have some interest, which means us playing their style of TF2, rather than us trying to force them into playing ours.

I vote leave TF2 how it is and enjoy playing the game as it is. Hope for some minimal growth through decent coverage and wait for TF3 to be released. If / when it does get released, we just mustn't make the same mistakes we made with this game :)

The huge amount of variety in Dota 2 is what keeps me watching, even though I like tf2 so much more. Every match of dota is different (even though the a sizable portion are just batrider, gyrocopter, nyx). Every match of 6v6 is more or less the same, with the only really interesting parts being the flashy airshots. HL has the same problem, but to a lesser degree. The difference here is that dota has balanced their game to the point where stupidly easy heroes can be just as viable as the most difficult ones, so any combination of heroes could be viable with a decent enough strategy.

Dota is a game full of bullshit mechanics, and gimmicky heroes and items, and its competitive scene incredibly popular because of it.

I don't think you need to take such a defeatist attitude. TF2 has the potential to be a really popular eSports game, and I think anyone that really starts watching will realize how awesome and deep the game is.

The positive side is that over these last few months the viewer-base has grown pretty fast. I think we went from a few hundred watchers to a few thousand. Comp TF2 threads are also hitting the top of r/tf2, which is a good sign. If we keep on this path, while at the same time making broadcasts more consistent, you'll see the scene grow.

Replace "some sort of 'hybrid' competitive game" with "some sort of 'hybrid' casual game" and I would 100% agree. Leave 6's as it is, it's a great game mode. Bring in this "hybrid" game mode, not in hopes that the competitive players will cherish it and grow it into something great, instead create something completely different that allows for competitive situations within pubs.

Badwater is the most loved pub map because it creates 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4 situations(i.e. very good at spreading the battle out). Look at 6s. We have flanks and we have chokes. Each flank and choke holds 2-4 players each (depending on how teams hold). 2v2 to 4v4 is where Team Fortess 2 thrives the most. If you create pub maps (made for 20+ players) that naturally get players to fight in small team battles, you will have created those good "hybrid" maps.

See, sadly I don't think this is the case. I honestly think if you went into a number of public servers, asked the server a very simple set of questions:

1) Have you ever watched a competitive TF2 match?
2) Did you enjoy it? If not, why not?
3) What changes would you make to the game to make you want to watch it more?

I think you would get quite a few people saying they have never watched a competitive TF2 game, but I think you will find that there are more people who have watched one, but simply didn't enjoy watching it or have no interest in watching someone play a computer game, when they can play it themselves.

If asking what changes they would made, I think the most common response will be related to maps, classes and unlocks. Of course, this is just my predictions. I'd love someone to actually take the time and go and get the public's opinions (from directly on the servers). If someone takes the time to do that, then they could point people towards TF.TV / ETF2L etc, if they haven't heard of it, so it wouldn't be a complete waste of time.

If this were true, Twitch wouldn't exist, or if it did, it wouldn't get nearly the number of users it does.

The original 8v8 that this game was originally beta tested as with class limits?
Rebalance some of these unlocks so they're viable?