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| Last Posted | October 9, 2018 at 11:17 AM |
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sacno u my entire post have been about peoples expectations and demanding for a change vs what they get in return and that its the reality of things,
what are you trying to convey? you might want to rephrase this
sacand its common sense to realise that valve doesnt apply common sense. thats the entire point of my posts aaaaaa
it's not common sense to expect a multimillion dollar company, supposedly hiring some of the best people in the industry, to make good decisions?
sacfraglandssacpeople in 2015: GIB PYRO CONSISTENT PARTICLES and flamethrower have dps!!!
People in 2018: wtf valve
its as if the community has a bunch of very vocal retards that have no idea what a balance is
its as if people wanted consistent particles and flamethrower have dps but ALSO for the flamethrower to actually take aim to use
dunno how you managed to miss that part
(irrelevant stuff)
And this is because a lot of what the community wants and receives in return gets bad things it never asked for.
(irrelevant stuff)
And this is becuase poeple that do work on this game, despite their best intent and willingness can't fix some of the issues without getting some part of it wrong because it lacks the insight that you'd need to fix it just right. So we have trial and error instead, with us as the testbase and we have to learn to deal with it as a community, becuase remember that ugc letter with all the pyromains in NA demanding things and people on reddit, the spuf suggestions of mini sentries and threads here that suggest things, some really good in concept but it lacks in execution when implemented and its not really a surprise anymore.
i think the point just kind of whooshed really hard over your head. the point is that what people wanted was for pyro to take more skill, and in return, valve did the polar opposite and made pyro take less skill.
it's just basic common sense not to do that.
vidboyTo expand though, he specifically refers to the Soldier and the Demo as classes with general applicability, which harkens back to the two Hydro commentary nodes: one that states that the Soldier is a "core" combat class, and the other, which was referenced in the post above me, which describes their original intent with demoman as being a versatile class. This might be why people conflate these two ideas, as the commentary is definitely inline with generalist/specialist game design philosophy, but there's no direct correlation until this interview. I wonder how far back the term generalist/specialists was used. I believe this specific phrasing (in regards to TF2, because the term generalist/specialist exists outside of tf2) used by the community predates this interview, but I'm not entirely sure. Was Robin Walker the first to use this terminology in correlation with TF2?
I did a google search with dates, and it does seem that this interview is the first ever use of this concept + tf2. So this would definitely imply that, yes, Valve intended general applicability vs. special applicability for different classes.
i was never implying that Robin Walker didn't originate the term; just that Valve didn't intend "general applicability vs. special applicability" to happen in competitive, and that it was an unintended consequence of balancing for pubs.
"generalist" is used to refer to a negative balance situation: he said "pain to balance relative to the specialist classes".
sagethe possible difference in balacing the game for 6v6 and 12v12 is negligible. the game should be balanced around the higher skill play anyway
the difference in balancing the game for 6v6 and 12v12 can actually be major, for 6s players anyway. 12v12 players can be more flexible because people don't exploit broken shit to the fullest extent, but competitive players do, so when I say "balanced around pubs" I more mean "valve has looked at certain weapons/classes and said: this is good enough for pubs"
i definitely agree the game should be balanced around higher skilled play, which is what valve are slowly moving towards
Makexcept for the fact that if u go watch the in game dev commentaries they also acknowledge there that certain classes are generalists and will be viable on both offence and defence.
i've seen all the dev commentaries before. none of what you just said is in any of them. are you referring to this
"The Demoman is the most versatile combat class capable or rapidly switching from strong offensive pushes to defensive area denial."?
because thats pretty different in intention to what you said. the word "generalists" was used by robin walker in a separate interview to describe why demo and soldier were a pain to balance, as in, they werent happy with that situation.
"Some classes are useless most of the time", as syph says, was obviously never an intention of valve if you look at how the pub game is actually played, and the unlocks they've given engineer/heavy (eg gunslinger and gru) to try and make them useful more often.
sacpeople in 2015: GIB PYRO CONSISTENT PARTICLES and flamethrower have dps!!!
People in 2018: wtf valve
its as if the community has a bunch of very vocal retards that have no idea what a balance is
its as if people wanted consistent particles and flamethrower have dps but ALSO for the flamethrower to actually take aim to use
dunno how you managed to miss that part
syphValve should do a better job of explaining in the game that some classes are specialists that are supposed to be played at certain times (...) Some classes are useless most of the time and some others need to be ran at all times in every game mode, that's how the game works
that's how the game works in competitive yes, it is not intentional but simply a result of the fact valve has balanced TF2 around pubs for so long. Now they are shifting slowly to balancing around competitive.
CondoMMore of a blacklist than a whitelist these days ...
How come weapons aren't allowed based on the value they add to the 6v6 gamemode anymore?
I cant be the only one so frustrated by this clutter of pointless weapons being included in our competition seemingly by default
being like a blacklist is good because it gives valve an idea of what seriously needs changing the most. its not really a clutter, it really doesnt affect you in any way that the weapons are allowed if nobody uses them anyway