Thanks for making this post, was about to write a lot of angry things :-) made this image just to visualise to people how i'm viewing unlocks. not saying it's objectively correct but I've got 12k hours and have put a lot of thought into it!!! Should also stress the positioning of these unlocks is not down to scientific accuracy before i get people going "umm ackshually gunboats should be moved to da left and to da right", this is just a visual representation.

https://i.imgur.com/ejTy4NM.png

i used to think u had functioning brain but perhaps now not so much :-)

Untrue, no Demos are aiming with the fucky large projectile in mind, they're just benefiting from it at random more than anything. Most demos who are good right now would still be just as good, they just wouldn't be getting undeserved kills on medics and scouts mostly.

??? I haven't equipped stock for like 2 years or some shit now lmfao]

edit: I MADE THIS FUCKING GROUP https://steamcommunity.com/groups/stockpipesblow

Just cause 1 thing is stupid doesn't mean the other thing isn't also, if it were up to me I'd ban the Winger too brother

Until it gets banned I'm gonna keep using it lol not giving up the advantage just because I think it should be removed, but it's objectively stupid in its current state.

I also think people think too simplistically about unlocks, especially the straight upgrade argument. In reality unlocks can either be strong or weak and healthy for the game or unhealthy for the game. The way in which Iron Bomber is strong is stupid in comparison to something like Gunboats or Xbow, don't try to do the literal brainlet tier argument of "we should ban everything that is better than stock:DDD" lol.

https://www.teamfortress.tv/post/1008449/iron-bomber-regular-pipes-have-the-same-physics

This thread is what I'm referring to when I say it's an objective upgrade. The more consistent arc stuff was and sitll remains as an irrelevant point tbh, first of all I'm not even sure if it does anything in real game situations and 2nd of all it wouldn't balance out the projectile being almost 2x bigger than stock pipes. People take into account the horizontal axis immediately when thinking about this (easier to hit people moving side to side), but not many people think about how why this was the reason that Iron Bomber feels like it hits you before it hits you (if that makes any sense). Nothing to do with smaller model or it being darker, so harder to see and react to.

Probably gonna be a boring post to most people since I've kinda been going on about it since the new info came to light and even before that there were others harping on it for ages, but now that there's definitive proof that it's just easier to use than stock pipes this unlock should probably be banned. Kinda want there to be some formal discussion on it since most of it has been on other threads related to whitelists or the original thread where it was showcased how broken this shit really is.

Obviously (or at least obviously to me) it should be unbanned if valve fix it or a plugin is made that fixes it (I'm not at all knowledgeable on exactly how possible this is but my first thoughts would be to say it's unlikely if not impossible). I still think that if it worked how everyone thought it did it would actually be healthier for the game to have consistent rollers than wacky chaos rollers (utility from better roller jumps + objectively speaking mechanics that behave in a more consistent manner provide for a more competitive environment, even if the effect is stronger as a result).

I also wanna refute a point that some people were making where they acknowledge that it's broken and stupid but Demo probably needs it for balance reasons:

I think removing the Iron Bomber at this point would be a slight nerf to all Demomen but it's not something that should be missed. Ever since having it pointed out I notice the amount of pipes I hit that are just about grazing someone's shoulder or hair and I'm like "This is a cool unlock". Obviously I/most demos hit pipes that would also be hits with stock a majority of the time, that's what good aim and muscle memory leads to, but what would have been an unfortunate close miss is now a hit that nets me a frag/damage/round/etc. You don't aim for the edges of hitboxes just because you can. End of the day, Demo is still the strongest class in the game, and was somewhat underrated as a DM class for the longest time. This can be proven by pretty much any Div1+ Demoman tbh but even more so by the top Demos of any region who DM their way out of bad situations. (I don't think many active top-level players still buy into the whole "Demo is the weakest direct combat class" line, and even those who do realise it's not as severe as in 2010 when no one knew how to hold a mouse and had no limbs).

TLDR: Demo with stock pipes is strong/balanced enough, he doesn't need something that randomly bails him out a few times a game. Also it's probably unfun as fuck to play against specifically as Scout, and yeah "haha scout class in 2020 is OP" but there's better ways to balance the dynamics between Scout and Projectile classes beyond "Demoman sometimes kills scout for free ontop of being able to outplay them sometimes anyways" (I rarely notice hitting Soldiers cause of the broken collision fuckery)

Obligatory tf.tv discussion thread strawpoll: https://www.strawpoll.me/20917602

I still think Iron Bomber should be banned until valve fix it or a plugin is made that fixes it. Now that there's proof that it's more than a very viable side-grade.

I think all of these unlocks pervert the flow of the game. Banners slow shit down by taking too long to build and kinda have busted effects (beside conch). The reward for good spam/pressure is the immediate effects of it, with banners you can have 1 guy take a bit more risk and have everyone else play low-risk and you'll build an advantage eventually while exposing your team as a whole to less chance of a misplay.

I also don't think demo (or any class) should have access to projectiles that can destroy stickies, its rly obnoxiously strong in enabling cheese plays. Luckily no map in the map pool rewards it too much atm but yea.

every1 knows the uber sucks but i think you're the one underestimating how good +40% heal rate is. The decision to bow or beam (assuming target is in range) is often marginal except for if you need to hit the bow for them to live during a fight. Quickfix heal rate is insanity, if your med is running it and their team isn't then you can just keep taking dry fights and win off of better heals. allowing it would probs lead to some stupid meta where people run it to mids then switch off it after they die, unless they wanna keep taking fights.

https://whitelist.tf/11150

These r like the only unlocks that add more to the game than they take away, and even then some of them are contentious. Iron Bomber should probably straight out be banned now that it's confirmed straight upgrade (I'll forever hold the L for telling people it was just placebo for the past 2/3 years lmfao).

edit: Still think that if valve fix IB or a plugin is made that fixes it then it should be allowed at that point.

saltmas

luv hl kids bawling their eyes out loool

ur demo rollout is kinda slow, last jump should be off side of a shutter