MY MAN

valve wont revert it because they didnt revert demo nerf and if i remember people were upset about that also so.

i dont know anyone who doesn't main pyro who is upset with the nerf itself

i dont know anyone who was happy with the demo nerf at all

IMO the degreaser needed the weapon switch rebalance because of the flaregun, rather than should having been not nerfed because of it. Because of flare -> axtinguisher combos. Especially relevant now that they're bringing the axtinguisher back more like it used to be. Globally buffing weapon switch speed and giving the degreaser an "only relevant to this weapon" switch speed buff, instead of the old passive one, seems fair, especially considering the degreaser's damage changes -- the nerfed afterburn will encourage degreaser pyros to roll flaregun, this just prevents that from being the overpowered combo again regardless of the current lack of airblast stacking.

axtinguisher is useless and thanks to airblast change, shotgun is now better 100%

Works Here

switching from dx8 to dx9 had a bigger effect on my pyro than these changes tbh. if you played degreaser shotgun powerjack you only really notice the really small change in swap speeds imo.

Hello, real pyro main here. Just woke up, sorry for bumping this. Someone asked me to post my opinions here.

I'm gonna keep this short, I don't care about pyro in 6s, I don't care about trying to make pyro viable in 6s even as a feigned measure. He's a class that works best as a constant threat and that doesn't work amazingly in a game that's based around timings and abusing spikes in advantages, and if he did, it would no longer be a game based around timings and abusing spikes in advantages.

There's really only one potential negative shift in the matchups for pyro in this patch due to these pyro changes and that's pyro vs scout. Removes the .6s kill option on nonbuffed and makes it like .7s. So naturally this hurts the 6s pyro some but I mean you guys really weren't running him for the purpose of fighting scouts anyways.

Every other matchup that actually really matters just got faster for pyro's kill option with degreaser. Quite a bit on classes with above 150hp. Degreaser's damage in the preferred fighting range was increased by 50% (4 damage per tick to 6 damage per tick) due to the falloff changes and the damage reduction removal.

Since you guys are 6s players and some of you play quake, comboing with pyro is somewhat similar to the strategy of lg-rail in quake in why you do it. They just increased the switch time to rail by 50%, yeah, but they also buffed the lg's damage by 50%.

Good post thanks didn't think about it that way

lol, I've been saying this for at least a year now. All they would have to do is redesign it like a jet burner, and it wouldn't even need to be lightning based and break the thematic 'Pyromaniac' part of the Pyro.

isn't the buff only for stock FT

Nope, affects all flamethrowers currently. Just tried it in live patch as well to confirm it wasn't patched out silently. The wording in the update did make it seem like it was only for stock but it affects them all.

Can someone actually explain to me why all these "pyro mains" are complaining at all... looking at all the relevant changes made to the pyro, if anything the class was made stronger. I'm gonna ignore the changes to the axtinguisher and phlog as they didn't really affect much; axtinguisher is still kinda bad and the phlog is still kinda broken just like before the update. All the main complaints seem to be that pyro has been "nerfed" and been made "useless" because of the changes to the degreaser; the "only viable pyro primary".

I've been playing around with the degreaser exclusively since the change and it actually feels identical to the way it was before. The extra 5 ammo per airblast and the reduced afterburn damage were justified nerfs that actually incentivise the use of the stock flamethower. That being said, these changes are almost inconsequential and I haven't once thought while playing around with it, "Wow I really wish I had that extra airblast" or, "Damn, that guy should have burned to death" because that's not how you use the degreaser. You use it to take advantage of the switch speed in order to perform weapons combos.

That brings me to the change in switch speed (if you can even call it a change). I don't know if I'm missing something here but it's actually fucking unnoticeable. I've been using the weapon EXACTLY the same way as before, with the "changes" in switch speed literally never coming into play. Like I said before, it feels fucking IDENTICAL. I just dont understand...

And finally, the last change made to the degreaser was "Removed damage penalty" which is actually a buff. However, the other global pyro changes can't be ignored either:

- Extinguishing a teammate will now return 20 health to the Pyro (A BUFF)
- The base Flamethrower's damage fall off over distance has been decreased, resulting in higher damage output at range (A BUFF)

So overall, we have 3 nerfs to the degreaser that are either inconsequential or completely unnoticeable, 1 buff to the desgreaser, and 2 more buffs to the pyro in general. If anything, it seems like pyro actually got a fucking buff.

So yeah, I ask again; Why is anyone complaining about pyro being nerfed or made useless?? Am I missing something here??????????????????????

lolpyro

Its incredible how many people are ignoring the damage increase on the tip of the flamethrower range, which is really the thing I was happiest to see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhU2GcRZFsc&t=60

where it all started.

Clockwork's post is really thoughtful, and I think holds a really good perspective for evaluating the game. I would add that we should still think of tf2 as a game that the developers want to make as fun as possible without removing the element of rewarding skill growth. Balance changes may be few and far between, but I think valve has made some really smart changes in this update.

+20 HP on extinguish is an important pyro change. Inherently the only way friendly players are ignited is by another pyro. This change punishes pyro players who mindlessly light the enemy team on fire at every chance, and incentivizes pyro players to extinguish their team and to aggressively close out the fights they do choose to take.

Degreaser afterburn nerf is negligible and the game has so many mechanics for extinguishing oneself or healing through burn damage that afterburn has been become a less and less important mechanic as time has gone on for this game. Clockwork made a good point about this being a mechanic that allows players to find success even while they have limited experience or ability in the game, which is a healthy thing for games to have imo. I doubt that this change will meaningfully effect skillful pyro play. Afterburn at this point functions more as a status effect to disrupt aim and grant crit flares, at least on the degreaser.

Switch weapon speed is a buff (.67 to .5 seconds across the game) IN GENERAL to classes and loadouts that rely on combined use of multiple weapons (i.e. shotgun pocket has been slightly buffed relative to gunboats pocket because it has improved in potency while the loadout that requires no switching has remained the same). The combination of this buff with the nerf to "switch away" speed balances what I believe to be valves intention for granting the class some depth that it lacked in earlier iterations of tf2. The ability to instantly pop out one weapon after another on degreaser pyro was odd in that it essentially removed the skill in weapon management. Imagine what quake would be like if you could switch off weapons instantly after firing. Combining that with two guns that dont require any reloading (or much ammo management) and pyro recedes into the simplicity that belies its function as a support role for newer players.

The potency of airblast with respect to stuffing ubers in chokes is not to be understated, but I'm sure valve is aware how many people have really enjoyed full time mastering what is undeniably a class that makes the game accessible to beginners. Making pyro a close range DM monster without making that DM reliant on abusing the presently unique mechanics of the airblast (denying the ability to surf unlike any other kind of knockback in the game) is a path to promoting skill based distinctions between pyro players.

Overall, I think that shotgun pyro will become dominant as "flarepunching" has been made much more similar to hitting airshots given the increase in time from airblasting to flaring. A push for hitscan skill on pyro may promote interest in exploring the depth found in the core combat classes, while making pyro require more mechanical skill in general will allow for the depth that many desire on the class. Concerns about W+M1 are overstated, essentially every single hitscan weapon in the game (aimed well) can kite a pyro who is clearly telegraphing his intentions by rushing forward.

The immense superiority of players like Satan and grape over other pyros is evidence for the unexplored skill cap on pyro. Most highly skillful and motivated players quickly move to one of the core combat classes. A few players being highly successful through mastery of pyro mechanics should make more people aware of the potential of the class in a highlander setting (potential is essentially nullified outside of a niche role by the rapid style of 6v6 play).

TL;DR: Pyro class should be more reliant on shotgun dm or noticeable skill in hitting flares, this update accomplishes that.

EDIT: spelling & grammar + Last section

it's entirely possible for valve to make massive, sweeping changes for pyro. remember, both of the major updates this year had those type of changes, and regardless of the outcome being positive or negative (uber pickup whyyyy) they've certainly been big.

the way I see it, there's really no greater gap of design between pubs (or, to a smaller extent, HL) and 6s than with the pyro. the pub pyro is your team's helpful little support buddy, maybe not the best in all situations but he's good glue and can basically work together with anyone else to a good effect, so people like him. in 6s, though, he's just a shitty little defensive class that you use when you decide that you need to use his one good stat, his airblast, and then you go right back to scout the second that's dealt with.

the pyro is really good for teaching new players a lot of important stuff (truktruk mentioned in the tough break thread that the phlog is good on its own just to force novice opponents to learn strict positioning, which I'm cool with), but... you can say the same thing about the soldier, and the soldier is still incredible at top 6s play. you can still raise the skill ceiling without touching the skill floor, and if anything that's precisely why a pyro redesign could be a great thing. it's hard to go wrong with a class that anyone can learn, but you can still skillfully use at top levels of play

e: btw, I found this gfy on /r/truetf2: http://www.gfycat.com/WideeyedDeficientCaecilian
not much actually changed, at worst you just needs to aim a bit better

Honestly i have no idea if the nerf to switch speed was really needed. It's not actually a big deal, but it raises the question as to why you would nerf the degreaser in this matter, only to buff the damage and still make stock totally not viable? Makes no sense to me. No sure what Valve tried to accomplish here if stock is still garbo.

I suppose Valve is trying to steer the class toward a more flamethrower-centric playstle, which I really don't have an opinion on. What I do care about is how easy it is to aim the flamethrower. It's not quite as braindead as some people make it out to be, but it's still pretty braindead. Maybe a flamethrower lg will make this class more skill-indexed and hopefully removes the skill-less image it possesses now.

Just remove the garbage stunlock on every airblast (not just consecutive ones) and I'll be happy. Also we'll see how many "pyro mains" quit because they can't actually aim and play the game 8).

Didn't really change the cancer that is pyro at all.

Degreaser received more damage than before thanks to the removal of the 10% penalty + reduction of damage falloff on all flamethrowers. The switch speed was 250ms before, now it's 350ms switch away, 200ms switch to, 100ms difference. You are stunlocked until you hit the ground so it still doesn't matter. Afterburn reduction of 4hps to 2hps is welcome but still doesn't solve the main issues.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KvFLEZrQV4

Large cone for flames which doesn't even pretend to encourage aim. Even larger cone for airblasting players which stunlock allowing for effortless shots with a secondary. And finally a massive bounding box which projectiles can be reflected from.

https://youtu.be/6KvFLEZrQV4?t=10m

Pyro nerfed? Not really. Team focus fire and zoning the pyro counters some of the cancer, but it doesn't make it any less cancerous.

what if you could control the flame mechanics. like instead of just pressing m1 if you held too long, then the flame would be less hot or dmg/ammo disperses faster. or if you hold down m1 too long, a larger low dmg radius occurs versus using your m1 at timed moments. some sort of a charge aspect even

this this this
shotgun is vastly underrated when most people main the class. so many roll the degreaser + secondary crit. why should one weapon that encourages a specific playstyle become the only viable way to play in a higher skill setting. if the perks of one weapon give that much of an advantage, something is wrong. i feel that being able to combo should not be rewarded more easily than having better hitscan, especially when the latter can actually be transfered to another class

The heavy nerf over a year ago was significantly more impactful than this pyro nerf, so I am surprised there is more of an outcry for this.

nobody has even mentioned the demoknight nerfs, someone pls think of the demoknights. pyros still have it as easy as before

Probably because even the heavy mains don't care about heavy. From my experience there actually are many pyro mains who like the class for what it is. It's simple but fun. Even the most hardcore sixes gamer here can admit some things about pyro are flashy, like getting reflect airshots, long range flares, crit flares on pyros etc. and as clockwork mentioned the class is very attractive to new players because of how simple it is to get started with it, and those little flashy things can motivate someone to keep playing it even after they get better at the game overall, along with there always being a place for one of us in highlander.

Heavy doesn't really have those moments and is a class whose skill is hidden under the hood, gamesense, positioning, and that little bit of tracking that don't translate very well into a frag video. While I know a few heavy mains who are passionate about the class, I think the vast majority of them do it because they happen to be good at it, and a good amount of them only really play heavy with their HL teams, switching to other classes when they want to have fun. I know pyros who have thousands of hours on pyro alone, I myself have a thousand and that's even after I started enjoying less pyro and more scout. You don't get that just playing competitive.

I'm not saying this is fair for the heavy class and I would like those nerfs to be reverted and some more thought put into it to make it more fun and yes, "flashy", but it's a reality of life and tf2 in particular that those who argue ("whine") more get more attention. The first sticky nerf was so widely hated that it got reverted, for good reason, but while there was some outcry about the minigun situation it clearly wasn't enough to reach Valve's not very well-functioning ears, and I think the good HL heavies just kinda thought to themselves "oh well, I'll play more passive or take more heals and get on with my life, the enemy heavy got nerfed too". Now people are complaining pretty heavily about pyro because a lot of people aren't happy with having the combo playstyle nerfed in favour of being forced to use the flamethrower more, but I think "butthurt pyro mains" should realize the changes are actually a buff overall, and people who are concerned about the class's lack of depth will still put their arguments forward, hopefully in a more civil manner. And people who main heavy or engineer should do the same. Those two classes are really getting the short end of the stick right now and they deserve some love too.

Of course you can argue that it would take too much to revamp all the "HL classes" into viable and fun competitive classes, and you're probably right. I can't think of good ideas for heavy, think engie is pretty good as it is already but it's stuffed in sixes by the lack of mobility, and I love the pyro LG idea but even that is probably too drastic for Valve to actually do it. They might add rampups on stickies and miniguns but they won't actually change the very mechanism of the weapons.

No love for the Fat Man I guess.

Class has real depth though, given the heavy having the most glaring strengths and weaknesses of any class: low mobility but hp pool and defensive damage (far more effective on people pushing into you). Having precise movement and intelligent positioning to minimize your weaknesses and play to your strengths makes a moderate but noticeable impact on a class that is admittedly fairly easy to play pretty well with good aim.

As someone who likes to play a fair bit of Pyro, I don't hate this update for the class bar one or two things.

The first is the phlog. I'll never understand why valve would reward the worst playstyle of pyro that can be done with any flamethrower by giving the player invuln during their taunt to acquire kritz. I've hated this mechanic since the phlog came out, especially the dead ringer style damage resistance the pyro used to have while taunting. The pyro was always pushed as an ambush class. That's changed since airblast, degreaser, etc. But the phlog should push the ambush part of the class back into action. Remove the invuln and the phlog is fine. Get some fire damage, hide around a corner, taunt for kritz. If you get killed taunting; you didn't consider your positioning. You could run in and do the same thing with any other flamethrower but you won't get the same result, eventually you'll die, especially if you decide to taunt randomly for some reason. They shouldn't get a free ride for running in and taunting. Remember when the sandvich came out and it used to heal straight to 300 with no cooldown? Like shit me this is almost the same but you get kritz out of it.

My other complaint is the switch speed on degreaser. However, not the switch out speed; the switch in. It's jaunty and strange. Other weapons in this update have the same thing. Faster switch in, slower switch out. Just keep them the same, it's awkward. What did the switch out speed on the degreaser change to? 30% instead of 60% or something? Just keep it 30% for switching in and out. No point in over complicating it.

I don't have any problem with the pyro changes otherwise.

The thing I dislike about Pyro comes from him not needing to think about risks and not having to commit to anything.
Any class that has stickies, grenades and rockets fired at it from medium range has to dodge and try and surf the damage into safety if they have to, a Pyro only needs to click m2 and the threat is canceled, if he gets a lucky shot he not only ignores the damage that was supposed to be dealt to him - he will deal more damage than the projectile does in the first place.
Not fearing long range damage - the Pyro can simply close the distance to get into his most effective range just by walking at a person instead of properly positioning himself, why?
If you are fighting someone they commit to using a certain gun, if they switch to their other weapon they waste time and risk death because they are simply not firing, a Pyro doesn't worry about that if he uses the Degreaser. How does this fit for a flanking, ambush class?
I rarely die to Pyros who focus on reflecting, I let them get close then misstime my projectiles to kill them, it just amazes me that Pyro is such a flawed class...
If Pyro had a stock primary weapon that had just slightly bigger range than the flame thrower, less ammo - but was similar to Quake's lightning-gun (but fired projectiles/hitboxes like the Flamethrower) Pyro would truly reward good aim, prediction and movement.
I wish that Pyro got a rework that would make him a more viable class that rewarded skillful play...

I know that this opinion won't be well received by a lot, but I'm just trying to find a way to make Pyro better, and less gimmicky.

"a Pyro only needs to click m2 and the threat is canceled"

"he gets a lucky shot he not only ignores the damage "

is pyro easy or not dude make up yr mind

"Pyro can simply close the distance "

stop posting

If the Pyro manages to aim the projectile and it hits, not only he ignores damage but he deals 135% the damage it originally does.
He walks at a person because the person cannot fire his projectiles at the Pyro until they are both very close to each other.

Or he can just not engage the one class that hard counters him and leave with his infinitely more flexible mobility instead of sitting there letting the pyro walk up to him like a dingoose