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cp_propaganda (5cp)
1
#1
0 Frags +

Hey, all. Looking for some feedback on my map "cp_propaganda". It's a 5cp map very much inspired by the gameplay of sunshine and process. I am still willing to make relatively large layout changes, so keep the feedback coming.

Current version: b1
Download: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/propaganda.1927/download?version=12885
TF2Maps thread: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/propaganda.1927/
Screenshots: https://imgur.com/a/ZZAth

b1 update:
Now moving into beta! I feel confident now that theres not a whole lot that needs significant changes, so I've started detailing a bit.
-Windows!
-Changed the shape of some buildings for visual purposes.
-Fixed the smaller things Beater suggested.(lantern collision, shelf)
-Once again, either helped or hurt performance! Either way it's a feature, I swear.

Known issues:
-Stickies stick to nothing above the new wall on last.
-Collision on pipe near second point can be weird.
-Invisible wall around the forward spawn door on second.

Things I'm considering and would like feedback on: (Mostly things beater suggested)
-Moving forward spawns around to make sniper less powerful.
-Making alley flank from mid more interesting. I'm not entirely sure how to do this without major changes, and I don't have time to make these atm.
-Removing death pits on second.
-Shrinking the size of mid a bit.

I would absolutely love thoughts on the ideas above.

Hey, all. Looking for some feedback on my map "cp_propaganda". It's a 5cp map very much inspired by the gameplay of sunshine and process. I am still willing to make relatively large layout changes, so keep the feedback coming.

[b]Current version:[/b] b1
[b]Download:[/b] https://tf2maps.net/downloads/propaganda.1927/download?version=12885
[b]TF2Maps thread:[/b] https://tf2maps.net/downloads/propaganda.1927/
[b]Screenshots:[/b] https://imgur.com/a/ZZAth

b1 update:
Now moving into beta! I feel confident now that theres not a whole lot that needs significant changes, so I've started detailing a bit.
-Windows!
-Changed the shape of some buildings for visual purposes.
-Fixed the smaller things Beater suggested.(lantern collision, shelf)
-Once again, either helped or hurt performance! Either way it's a feature, I swear.

Known issues:
-Stickies stick to nothing above the new wall on last.
-Collision on pipe near second point can be weird.
-Invisible wall around the forward spawn door on second.

Things I'm considering and would like feedback on: (Mostly things beater suggested)
-Moving forward spawns around to make sniper less powerful.
-Making alley flank from mid more interesting. I'm not entirely sure how to do this without major changes, and I don't have time to make these atm.
-Removing death pits on second.
-Shrinking the size of mid a bit.

I would absolutely love thoughts on the ideas above.
2
#2
12 Frags +

love the name and theme

love the name and theme
3
#3
6 Frags +

for the love of me why do you put a pipe above last point if it's to block it's access? The whole shape of the "thing" above the last is extremely obnoxious. make it so one can go exactly where it looks like it can go and dont use invisible clipping

besides that i can't find obvious flaws with your last. the 3 access routes feel wide enough. Maybe this defensive position would be too strong? I can't see anything wrong with using a sniper from here :

http://i.imgur.com/rFV4NQW.jpg

Second looks very defendable from this highground :

http://i.imgur.com/3M2jpEa.jpg

Overall second defenders are not encouraged to move, regardless of what route the attackers will choose the defenders can defend without moving, either from aforementioned highground either with combo there :

http://i.imgur.com/ruB7Nr9.jpg

Or either from above the point itself.

Besides the only way for attackers to actually flank is spotted years before the flanker can do anything :

http://i.imgur.com/v1cbrMU.jpg

And the whole flank route is at an horrid height disadvantage which makes it very easy for one soldier to shut it down.

I like that your chokes promote gimmicky jumps all the way to defenders battlements but so far that is the only edge attackers have because once they get through any of your choke points (except one) they find themselves at a height disadvantage.

Also second defenders can't push middle because 2 ways are horrible to push from (big height disadv) and one is isolated.

You need to have clear height differences between chokepoints and mid or chokepoints and second in order to favor one team. I advise favor second holders because mid holders already have the forward spawns they can play with.

For example, make it so one of these white buildings is accessible from the second, in order to give a free higher-than-the-cp- highground to ease pushing to mid :

http://i.imgur.com/6zDxYis.jpg

This part of the map could also go downhill:

http://i.imgur.com/0ibF2pw.jpg

Making it so would mitigate the defenders highground advantage by standing atop second point.

To sum up, i think that you need to introduce more height differences to favor dry pushes between your mid and second point. The points themselves do not feel bad at all.

for the love of me why do you put a pipe above last point if it's to block it's access? The whole shape of the "thing" above the last is extremely obnoxious. make it so one can go exactly where it looks like it can go and dont use invisible clipping

besides that i can't find obvious flaws with your last. the 3 access routes feel wide enough. Maybe this defensive position would be too strong? I can't see anything wrong with using a sniper from here :

[img]http://i.imgur.com/rFV4NQW.jpg[/img]

Second looks very defendable from this highground :
[img]http://i.imgur.com/3M2jpEa.jpg[/img]

Overall second defenders are not encouraged to move, regardless of what route the attackers will choose the defenders can defend without moving, either from aforementioned highground either with combo there :
[img]http://i.imgur.com/ruB7Nr9.jpg[/img]

Or either from above the point itself.

Besides the only way for attackers to actually flank is spotted years before the flanker can do anything :
[img]http://i.imgur.com/v1cbrMU.jpg[/img]

And the whole flank route is at an horrid height disadvantage which makes it very easy for one soldier to shut it down.

I like that your chokes promote gimmicky jumps all the way to defenders battlements but so far that is the only edge attackers have because once they get through any of your choke points (except one) they find themselves at a height disadvantage.

Also second defenders can't push middle because 2 ways are horrible to push from (big height disadv) and one is isolated.

You need to have clear height differences between chokepoints and mid or chokepoints and second in order to favor one team. I advise favor second holders because mid holders already have the forward spawns they can play with.

For example, make it so one of these white buildings is accessible from the second, in order to give a free higher-than-the-cp- highground to ease pushing to mid :
[img]http://i.imgur.com/6zDxYis.jpg[/img]

This part of the map could also go downhill:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/0ibF2pw.jpg[/img]
Making it so would mitigate the defenders highground advantage by standing atop second point.

To sum up, i think that you need to introduce more height differences to favor dry pushes between your mid and second point. The points themselves do not feel bad at all.
4
#4
3 Frags +

looks like a lot of height advantage for the defenders on last.

looks like a lot of height advantage for the defenders on last.
5
#5
10 Frags +

Uploaded to serveme.tf
anyone want to playtest on stadium? https://www.tf2stadium.com/lobby/7359
alternative lobby on tf2center https://tf2center.com/lobbies/856363
offtopic: i think it would be nice to push stadium as the "alternative maps" lobby website since the status quo of tf2center cant be challenged

edit: center match #1 STV match #2 STV

MID: a bit convoluted and not very friendly if you fall down from the platform
SECOND: Same, its very soldier-centric and the top platform has lots of advantages and is relatively hard to access for other classes
LAST: the left exit from last is a bit hard to see, maybe make it bigger

i like the detail of making the tank fire when last is capped, was really unexpected :)

Uploaded to serveme.tf
[s]anyone want to playtest on stadium? https://www.tf2stadium.com/lobby/7359[/s]
[s]alternative lobby on tf2center https://tf2center.com/lobbies/856363[/s]
offtopic: i think it would be nice to push stadium as the "alternative maps" lobby website since the status quo of tf2center cant be challenged

[b]edit:[/b] center [url=https://serveme.tf/uploads/76561198011988825-695730-296-20170815.zip]match #1 STV[/url] [url=https://serveme.tf/uploads/76561198011988825-695749-306-20170815.zip]match #2 STV[/url]

[u]MID:[/u] a bit convoluted and not very friendly if you fall down from the platform
[u]SECOND[/u]: Same, its very soldier-centric and the top platform has lots of advantages and is relatively hard to access for other classes
[u]LAST[/U]: [url=http://imgur.com/a/hy7Jl]the left exit from last is a bit hard to see, maybe make it bigger[/url]

i like the detail of making the tank fire when last is capped, was really unexpected :)
6
#6
5 Frags +

http://imgur.com/a/V7eAZ my quick thoughts

http://imgur.com/a/V7eAZ my quick thoughts
7
#7
2 Frags +

Thanks for all the feedback so far guys!

I can definitely see the pipe above last being annoying. The original idea for it was to restrict movement for defenders on last a little bit, but I see that it sort of just cramps things and also hinders people pushing last. I'll probably just try removing clipping first, and then decide if I need to just remove it altogether.

I've changed the choke ramp from mid to 2nd to one smooth angle.

I really like the idea of changing the forward spawns on 2nd point. I'll have to see if I can squeeze them in up top on the high ground.

Also, for anyone who plays a game on it, let me know if players are easy to spot. The current lighting is temporary, but I want to make sure players are easily visible for testing.

Thanks for all the feedback so far guys!

I can definitely see the pipe above last being annoying. The original idea for it was to restrict movement for defenders on last a little bit, but I see that it sort of just cramps things and also hinders people pushing last. I'll probably just try removing clipping first, and then decide if I need to just remove it altogether.

I've changed the choke ramp from mid to 2nd to one smooth angle.

I really like the idea of changing the forward spawns on 2nd point. I'll have to see if I can squeeze them in up top on the high ground.

Also, for anyone who plays a game on it, let me know if players are easy to spot. The current lighting is temporary, but I want to make sure players are easily visible for testing.
8
#8
8 Frags +

Haven't played the map yet but i can say i am liking the art direction.
Clean and uncluttered.
Easy to see.
Pretty.
NOT MORE FUCKING GREEN.
Keep it up.

Haven't played the map yet but i can say i am liking the art direction.
Clean and uncluttered.
Easy to see.
Pretty.
NOT MORE FUCKING GREEN.
Keep it up.
9
#9
1 Frags +

looks dope

looks dope
10
#10
2 Frags +
QuantumBarberThanks for all the feedback so far guys!

I can definitely see the pipe above last being annoying. The original idea for it was to restrict movement for defenders on last a little bit, but I see that it sort of just cramps things and also hinders people pushing last. I'll probably just try removing clipping first, and then decide if I need to just remove it altogether.

I've changed the choke ramp from mid to 2nd to one smooth angle.

I really like the idea of changing the forward spawns on 2nd point. I'll have to see if I can squeeze them in up top on the high ground.

Also, for anyone who plays a game on it, let me know if players are easy to spot. The current lighting is temporary, but I want to make sure players are easily visible for testing.

i played a game on the map

most of it is fine lighting-wise but some of the entrances to mid are quite dark, especially the main choke.

[quote=QuantumBarber]Thanks for all the feedback so far guys!

I can definitely see the pipe above last being annoying. The original idea for it was to restrict movement for defenders on last a little bit, but I see that it sort of just cramps things and also hinders people pushing last. I'll probably just try removing clipping first, and then decide if I need to just remove it altogether.

I've changed the choke ramp from mid to 2nd to one smooth angle.

I really like the idea of changing the forward spawns on 2nd point. I'll have to see if I can squeeze them in up top on the high ground.

Also, for anyone who plays a game on it, let me know if players are easy to spot. The current lighting is temporary, but I want to make sure players are easily visible for testing.[/quote]

i played a game on the map

most of it is fine lighting-wise but some of the entrances to mid are quite dark, especially the main choke.
11
#11
3 Frags +

A9 Changelog:
I decided to experiment with mid quite a bit. I think I've simplified it to make it feel less cluttered, but if it plays worse I can easily revert the changes.

Mid:
-Removed pavilion.
-Added nipple. (Do we like nipples around here?)
-Simplified small buildings.
-Changed ramps at mid choke to be one 2:1 angle.
-Added lighting to choke.

2nd:
-Moved forward spawn to on to of the porch to discourage spawn camping.
-Moved medium health to below the porch so its not next to the forward spawn.
-Added stairs going up to the porch where the big green bush used to be for non blast jumping classes.
-You can now cap from the metal bridge over point.

Last:
-Removed clipping on the pipe
-Removed clipping on concrete over point.
-Raised doorway behind bush for visibility and to make it a bit less chokey.

Download: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/propaganda.1927/download?version=11165
Screenshots: http://imgur.com/a/yr3Kc

A9 Changelog:
I decided to experiment with mid quite a bit. I think I've simplified it to make it feel less cluttered, but if it plays worse I can easily revert the changes.

Mid:
-Removed pavilion.
-Added nipple. (Do we like nipples around here?)
-Simplified small buildings.
-Changed ramps at mid choke to be one 2:1 angle.
-Added lighting to choke.


2nd:
-Moved forward spawn to on to of the porch to discourage spawn camping.
-Moved medium health to below the porch so its not next to the forward spawn.
-Added stairs going up to the porch where the big green bush used to be for non blast jumping classes.
-You can now cap from the metal bridge over point.


Last:
-Removed clipping on the pipe
-Removed clipping on concrete over point.
-Raised doorway behind bush for visibility and to make it a bit less chokey.


Download: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/propaganda.1927/download?version=11165
Screenshots: http://imgur.com/a/yr3Kc
12
#12
0 Frags +

I think that you should keep the pavilion and instead remove the weird shacks stolen from sunshine. It's "dead highground" near a choke point to me. having a spire like fight for the pavilion (which looks much cooler than the nipple) is just more interesting.

I think that you should keep the pavilion and instead remove the weird shacks stolen from sunshine. It's "dead highground" near a choke point to me. having a spire like fight for the pavilion (which looks much cooler than the nipple) is just more interesting.
13
#13
0 Frags +

mid is too big and has HUGE sniper sightlines
left flank from 2nd to mid is a bit wierd specially from the entrance in 2nd
bunch of suggestions for a9: http://imgur.com/a/FdamA
the best way to push last seems to be main (the big open entrance in the center)
shutter door in last is wayyyy too chokey, and the entrance in the opposite side is very easy to monitor atm

mid is too big and has HUGE sniper sightlines
left flank from 2nd to mid is a bit wierd specially from the entrance in 2nd
bunch of suggestions for a9: http://imgur.com/a/FdamA
the best way to push last seems to be main (the big open entrance in the center)
shutter door in last is wayyyy too chokey, and the entrance in the opposite side is very easy to monitor atm
14
#14
2 Frags +
TwiggyI think that you should keep the pavilion and instead remove the weird shacks stolen from sunshine. It's "dead highground" near a choke point to me. having a spire like fight for the pavilion (which looks much cooler than the nipple) is just more interesting.

Was the pavilion actually fun to play on? The way it was shaped always felt strange to me. For example if a soldier and scout are both on top on opposite sides, it felt like scout was too strong because there was virtually no way for soldier to use splash damage. And just for clarification, you're talking about removing the small shacks?

[quote=Twiggy]I think that you should keep the pavilion and instead remove the weird shacks stolen from sunshine. It's "dead highground" near a choke point to me. having a spire like fight for the pavilion (which looks much cooler than the nipple) is just more interesting.[/quote]
Was the pavilion actually fun to play on? The way it was shaped always felt strange to me. For example if a soldier and scout are both on top on opposite sides, it felt like scout was too strong because there was virtually no way for soldier to use splash damage. And just for clarification, you're talking about removing the small shacks?
15
#15
0 Frags +

I didn't get to play on the pavilion version : you made your topic here 2 days ago and changed it 1 day ago then sage made lobbies with a9.
What was interesting with the pavilion is that it's possible to drop down inside it and refuse a bad fight with a scout on top.
Also if the position is strong it creates an interesting dynamic : soldier can reach pavilion first and slam scout on the ground ; if scout gets up there he slams soldier; demoman can deal with both classes on the high ground. It's more bland with the nipple imo.

I question both the small and the big shack. If you're concerned about scouts then these things are the culprits as scout can just go anywhere without touching the ground.
The small shack is very strong for scouts and quite bad for soldiers (you're going to hit 40 damage rockets from this far)
The big shack makes it super hard for demo to push mid shutter side : he can just be fucked from anywhere by both scouts and soldiers.

Some architectural changes would be needed for mid as for a space this big throwing shacks and rocks and props won't do it IMO. I'm sure you have cool ideas.

Besides, I found defending second to be quite obnoxious : from the battlements only 1 exit (shutter) is easily reacheable and attackers have a really easy time chasing players there. Very frustrating. I suggest adding some kind of safe escape route from battlements.

Last pipe is VERY strong. I agree with sage about one of the spawn exits being useless (but i liked the shape of your spawn room, interesting design for sure, maybe reuse it in the future).

I disagree about "best way to push last seems to be the center". Shutter door is so close to the spawn and there is NO vision at all for defenders to know which way the push is coming. Double scout uber from there buys you all the room you need. So either defenders run a pyro or a sentry to watch this either they lose instantly.

I'll try to play it more see if my impressions are confirmed.

I didn't get to play on the pavilion version : you made your topic here 2 days ago and changed it 1 day ago then sage made lobbies with a9.
What was interesting with the pavilion is that it's possible to drop down inside it and refuse a bad fight with a scout on top.
Also if the position is strong it creates an interesting dynamic : soldier can reach pavilion first and slam scout on the ground ; if scout gets up there he slams soldier; demoman can deal with both classes on the high ground. It's more bland with the nipple imo.

I question both the small and the big shack. If you're concerned about scouts then these things are the culprits as scout can just go anywhere without touching the ground.
The small shack is very strong for scouts and quite bad for soldiers (you're going to hit 40 damage rockets from this far)
The big shack makes it super hard for demo to push mid shutter side : he can just be fucked from anywhere by both scouts and soldiers.

Some architectural changes would be needed for mid as for a space this big throwing shacks and rocks and props won't do it IMO. I'm sure you have cool ideas.

Besides, I found defending second to be quite obnoxious : from the battlements only 1 exit (shutter) is easily reacheable and attackers have a really easy time chasing players there. Very frustrating. I suggest adding some kind of safe escape route from battlements.

Last pipe is VERY strong. I agree with sage about one of the spawn exits being useless (but i liked the shape of your spawn room, interesting design for sure, maybe reuse it in the future).

I disagree about "best way to push last seems to be the center". Shutter door is so close to the spawn and there is NO vision at all for defenders to know which way the push is coming. Double scout uber from there buys you all the room you need. So either defenders run a pyro or a sentry to watch this either they lose instantly.

I'll try to play it more see if my impressions are confirmed.
16
#16
3 Frags +

Ok played it again :

Show Content

http://i.imgur.com/Q6IUOf0.jpg

obnoxious geometry. I got stuck there back pedaling. It adds no real value to make those awkward steps. A shame cuz this area feels nice to play.

http://i.imgur.com/DTb8y1m.jpg

cool looking but sees almost no use (so far)

http://i.imgur.com/Jze6EYq.jpg

big shack way too easy to access from there and has a tremendous height advantage on players near shutter

http://i.imgur.com/3dzvUah.jpg

cool on paper but with rocks at exits a soldier or scout will always rape anything inside the tube. Why did you even put rocks anyway? :)

http://i.imgur.com/6iop1H9.jpg

Cool zone that plays nice overall

http://i.imgur.com/7qM4U3H.jpg

Suggestion : connect this with the shutter room?

http://i.imgur.com/AxTFawC.jpg

There needs to be an escape route to last around there. Even some kind of drop down would be enough. As medic I'm forced to be a pussy in the stairs because otherwise it's too easy to cut my escape. You don't even need to have forward spawn here. it could be here :

http://i.imgur.com/27S6CW2.jpg

and it would make no difference.

http://i.imgur.com/HJt2011.jpg

Weird spot to be in. Why not make the concrete thing flat like on snakewater last?

On last, the attackers can't get any vision on the defenders setup without dying. Open shutter door (and eat the trap), go main and be spotted 10 years before you get any good LoS, go right (attackers perspective) and get fucked by a soldier on the arch

http://i.imgur.com/Pauohkt.jpg

abusive sight line

healtpack things
1 small pack on last is okay and in a decent spot.

http://i.imgur.com/Pjn3Bnq.jpg

These 2 are wayy too close -> remove medium, make small a medium

http://i.imgur.com/JCtMeOp.jpg

ugly, make it centered in front of the railing

the small health pack is nice.

http://i.imgur.com/jE5PMah.jpg

this is fine too i guess

http://i.imgur.com/YU2HHCJ.jpg

not needed, there is already plenty of ammo

http://i.imgur.com/73JIaXc.jpg

very weird spot. Defenders deny this completely. Instead put it here

http://i.imgur.com/6hXH0D4.jpg

because currently no one goes there
Ok played it again :
[spoiler]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/Q6IUOf0.jpg[/img]
obnoxious geometry. I got stuck there back pedaling. It adds no real value to make those awkward steps. A shame cuz this area feels nice to play.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/DTb8y1m.jpg[/img]
cool looking but sees almost no use (so far)

[img]http://i.imgur.com/Jze6EYq.jpg[/img]
big shack way too easy to access from there and has a tremendous height advantage on players near shutter

[img]http://i.imgur.com/3dzvUah.jpg[/img]
cool on paper but with rocks at exits a soldier or scout will always rape anything inside the tube. Why did you even put rocks anyway? :)

[img]http://i.imgur.com/6iop1H9.jpg[/img]
Cool zone that plays nice overall

[img]http://i.imgur.com/7qM4U3H.jpg[/img]
Suggestion : connect this with the shutter room?

[img]http://i.imgur.com/AxTFawC.jpg[/img]
There needs to be an escape route to last around there. Even some kind of drop down would be enough. As medic I'm forced to be a pussy in the stairs because otherwise it's too easy to cut my escape. You don't even need to have forward spawn here. it could be here :

[img]http://i.imgur.com/27S6CW2.jpg[/img]
and it would make no difference.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/HJt2011.jpg[/img]
Weird spot to be in. Why not make the concrete thing flat like on snakewater last?

On last, the attackers can't get any vision on the defenders setup without dying. Open shutter door (and eat the trap), go main and be spotted 10 years before you get any good LoS, go right (attackers perspective) and get fucked by a soldier on the arch

[img]http://i.imgur.com/Pauohkt.jpg[/img]
abusive sight line





[b]healtpack things[/b]
1 small pack on last is okay and in a decent spot.


[img]http://i.imgur.com/Pjn3Bnq.jpg[/img]
These 2 are wayy too close -> remove medium, make small a medium

[img]http://i.imgur.com/JCtMeOp.jpg[/img]
ugly, make it centered in front of the railing

the small health pack is nice.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/jE5PMah.jpg[/img]
this is fine too i guess

[img]http://i.imgur.com/YU2HHCJ.jpg[/img]
not needed, there is already plenty of ammo

[img]http://i.imgur.com/73JIaXc.jpg[/img]
very weird spot. Defenders deny this completely. Instead put it here

[img]http://i.imgur.com/6hXH0D4.jpg[/img]
because currently no one goes there[/spoiler]
17
#17
1 Frags +

General feedback from most people is that mid is wayyyy to big and the flanks are huge. There are huge sightlines on mid that would allow any good sniper to cause havok, either from choke or from flank.
Also people say its very soldier-centric, considering all the structures in second specially.
http://imgur.com/a/uIWcn

General feedback from most people is that mid is wayyyy to big and the flanks are huge. There are huge sightlines on mid that would allow any good sniper to cause havok, either from choke or from flank.
Also people say its very soldier-centric, considering all the structures in second specially.
http://imgur.com/a/uIWcn
18
#18
1 Frags +

sage the chimney thing allows you to go from the building on the left to the ground without fall damage so it's not silly

http://i.imgur.com/o9idAhu.jpg

Also that balcony is a good feature because defenders can't access it by foot; it's like the only zone that favors attackers for standing there

sage the chimney thing allows you to go from the building on the left to the ground without fall damage so it's not silly
[img]http://i.imgur.com/o9idAhu.jpg[/img]

Also that balcony is a good feature because defenders can't access it by foot; it's like the only zone that favors attackers for standing there
19
#19
3 Frags +

A10 Changelog:
Mid:
Readded pavilion so more people get the chance to test it.
Removed small shacks near choke.
Added small ramps going to the side of the pavilion.
Removed Rocks at either end of tunnel.
(I'm still not happy with mid, and I have some ideas on how to change it, but I haven't had the time recently. Hopefully what I have now should be reasonable to play on.
If it's awful and any of the past mids were way better, let me know, it's pretty easy to copy and paste the old geometry into the new map.)

2nd:
Repositioned health/ammo packs.
Made stairs leading up to shutter less (more?) wierd.
Made the chimney blocking rollout flush with the wall; Added rock to bottom to help with fall damage instead.

Last:
Removed pipe completely.
Enlarged building to the left.
Added window to bush to increase visibility somewhat.
Changed chape of concrete over point. Maybe its less awkward now.

Possible TODO's:
Make it easier to escape to last from the porch, and probably move the forward spawn on 2nd.
Add better visibility into last.
Work on sniper sight lines on mid.

Download: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/propaganda.1927/download?version=11361
Screenshots: http://imgur.com/a/KwBEW

A10 Changelog:
Mid:
Readded pavilion so more people get the chance to test it.
Removed small shacks near choke.
Added small ramps going to the side of the pavilion.
Removed Rocks at either end of tunnel.
(I'm still not happy with mid, and I have some ideas on how to change it, but I haven't had the time recently. Hopefully what I have now should be reasonable to play on.
If it's awful and any of the past mids were way better, let me know, it's pretty easy to copy and paste the old geometry into the new map.)

2nd:
Repositioned health/ammo packs.
Made stairs leading up to shutter less (more?) wierd.
Made the chimney blocking rollout flush with the wall; Added rock to bottom to help with fall damage instead.

Last:
Removed pipe completely.
Enlarged building to the left.
Added window to bush to increase visibility somewhat.
Changed chape of concrete over point. Maybe its less awkward now.

Possible TODO's:
Make it easier to escape to last from the porch, and probably move the forward spawn on 2nd.
Add better visibility into last.
Work on sniper sight lines on mid.

Download: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/propaganda.1927/download?version=11361
Screenshots: http://imgur.com/a/KwBEW
20
#20
5 Frags +

A11 Changelog:
Mid:
I essentially moved stuff around to help with sightlines.
Made ramps going to pavilion feels better.
Added arbors.
Made choke go into mid a bit more. (It's less like sunshines and process' now.)

2nd:
Added shack near choke to block sightlines and maybe make the area more interesting to play in.
Added dropdown from porch.

Last:
Removed bushes.

Other:
Added small route between the lower choke into last and the building next to porch on 2nd.

There is more I don't remember probably.

Download: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/propaganda.1927/download?version=11470
Screenshots: http://imgur.com/a/tGa7w

A11 Changelog:
Mid:
I essentially moved stuff around to help with sightlines.
Made ramps going to pavilion feels better.
Added arbors.
Made choke go into mid a bit more. (It's less like sunshines and process' now.)


2nd:
Added shack near choke to block sightlines and maybe make the area more interesting to play in.
Added dropdown from porch.

Last:
Removed bushes.

Other:
Added small route between the lower choke into last and the building next to porch on 2nd.

There is more I don't remember probably.


Download: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/propaganda.1927/download?version=11470
Screenshots: http://imgur.com/a/tGa7w
21
#21
2 Frags +

Was exploring the map and came up with a few thoughts.

https://imgur.com/a/i5iMK

Besides that, i found rollouts very plain and boring, no surfs, no dodging of obstacles at all, the only challenge is to either do sticky pogo or put 2 sticks on the ground (as in logjam). Maybe the only freedom is going left alley or choke due to the proximity of the medium packs being too close one and the other

https://youtu.be/_e0zsO2teOc

Was exploring the map and came up with a few thoughts.

https://imgur.com/a/i5iMK

Besides that, i found rollouts very plain and boring, no surfs, no dodging of obstacles at all, the only challenge is to either do sticky pogo or put 2 sticks on the ground (as in logjam). Maybe the only freedom is going left alley or choke due to the proximity of the medium packs being too close one and the other

[youtube]https://youtu.be/_e0zsO2teOc[/youtube]
22
#22
0 Frags +

some minor details for polishing
http://imgur.com/a/1SHxe

some minor details for polishing
http://imgur.com/a/1SHxe
23
#23
0 Frags +

I disagree with you sollo on the ability to fall off second point, i found it pretty funny when i played the map. It can lead to funky shit with failed surfs and stuff (but who cares its a very minor thing)
I agree with everything else tho

One cool thing to make use of the no-ledge thing is add some way to walk on the outside of the wall near water to reach second point (some kind of catwalk or airstrafing route);

I disagree with you sollo on the ability to fall off second point, i found it pretty funny when i played the map. It can lead to funky shit with failed surfs and stuff (but who cares its a very minor thing)
I agree with everything else tho

One cool thing to make use of the no-ledge thing is add some way to walk on the outside of the wall near water to reach second point (some kind of catwalk or airstrafing route);
24
#24
2 Frags +

I'm trying to pace myself with making too many layout changes at once, as it can pretty quickly change how the whole map plays. I've learned that lesson the hard way with earlier maps. So, for now it may seem like I'm ignoring some feedback, but I promise I take it all into consideration. I'm just being careful with it and trying to think it through.

@SolloWolo Thanks for the feedback.
The water has a kill trigger in it, your (basically) infinite health is keeping you from dying, I think. I may have it set up wrong, I'll have to look into the standard way of handling it, but for now it kills anyone below the health of 9999. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'll agree the high ground on second seems to be an issue.
Last is still pretty easy to defend. My plan is to change the side that had the bushes in a similar manner to how b4nny requested on stream. Should make it so that the middle entrance isn't the only safe one anymore.

@sage Thanks! I moved some stuff around, messed up on the clipping and managed to miss it.
On the water looking ugly, do you mean the water itself, or the way it cuts off?

I'm trying to pace myself with making too many layout changes at once, as it can pretty quickly change how the whole map plays. I've learned that lesson the hard way with earlier maps. So, for now it may seem like I'm ignoring some feedback, but I promise I take it all into consideration. I'm just being careful with it and trying to think it through.

@SolloWolo Thanks for the feedback.
The water has a kill trigger in it, your (basically) infinite health is keeping you from dying, I think. I may have it set up wrong, I'll have to look into the standard way of handling it, but for now it kills anyone below the health of 9999. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'll agree the high ground on second seems to be an issue.
Last is still pretty easy to defend. My plan is to change the side that had the bushes in a similar manner to how [url=https://www.twitch.tv/videos/171850224?t=03h03m14s]b4nny requested on stream.[/url] Should make it so that the middle entrance isn't the only safe one anymore.

@sage Thanks! I moved some stuff around, messed up on the clipping and managed to miss it.
On the water looking ugly, do you mean the water itself, or the way it cuts off?
25
#25
0 Frags +

nvm pipe removed dont mind me

nvm pipe removed dont mind me
26
#26
2 Frags +

A11A Minor update:
Fixed clipping issues on mid.
Made it clearer that that rockets dont go through the arbor roofs.
Added small porch thing to the alleyway flank. It's slightly less of a flat boring hallway now. https://i.imgur.com/ZZx7wuo.jpg

Download: http://tf2maps.net/downloads/propaganda.1927/download?version=11494
Screenshots: http://imgur.com/a/tGa7w (Same album posted with A11 update)

This will probably be the last update I release until the essentials.tf experimental cup, unless something game breaking crops up.

A11A Minor update:
Fixed clipping issues on mid.
Made it clearer that that rockets dont go through the arbor roofs.
Added small porch thing to the alleyway flank. It's slightly less of a flat boring hallway now. https://i.imgur.com/ZZx7wuo.jpg

Download: http://tf2maps.net/downloads/propaganda.1927/download?version=11494
Screenshots: http://imgur.com/a/tGa7w (Same album posted with A11 update)

This will probably be the last update I release until the essentials.tf experimental cup, unless something game breaking crops up.
27
#27
1 Frags +
QuantumBarber@sage Thanks! I moved some stuff around, messed up on the clipping and managed to miss it.
On the water looking ugly, do you mean the water itself, or the way it cuts off?

the way it cuts off and how you can see part of a wall floating
also the right flank from 2nd (the one with a big shutter door) could use some changes, maybe opening it up or making it go deeper
also the choke from 2nd to mid seems too "long", whole mid feels huge to most players

[quote=QuantumBarber]@sage Thanks! I moved some stuff around, messed up on the clipping and managed to miss it.
On the water looking ugly, do you mean the water itself, or the way it cuts off?[/quote]
the way it cuts off and how you can see part of a wall floating
also the right flank from 2nd (the one with a big shutter door) could use some changes, maybe opening it up or making it go deeper
also the choke from 2nd to mid seems too "long", whole mid feels huge to most players
28
#28
2 Frags +

a12 update:
I could've sworn I pushed this update out a week or so ago. My bad. It's relatively small.
-Changed right flank going from 2nd to last. The goal is to make pushing last more interesting instead of just hoping to push through the spam.
-Fixed the floating wall that @sage pointed out.

Download: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/propaganda.1927/download?version=11659
Screenshots: https://imgur.com/a/MCChr

a12 update:
I could've sworn I pushed this update out a week or so ago. My bad. It's relatively small.
-Changed right flank going from 2nd to last. The goal is to make pushing last more interesting instead of just hoping to push through the spam.
-Fixed the floating wall that @sage pointed out.

Download: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/propaganda.1927/download?version=11659
Screenshots: https://imgur.com/a/MCChr
29
#29
4 Frags +

a13 update:
-Optimization! I either made it better or worse, you decide!
-Changed the right flank from mid to be a cave instead of an awkwardly long boring hallway.
-Added balconies to some walls to make soldier slightly less strong in those areas.
-‎Moved tank on last.
-Other things I don't remember over the last couple of months.

Things I'm considering:
-Removing the dropdown from the porch on 2nd
-Adding new route to flank over water https://i.imgur.com/Iq3gehe.jpg
-‎Moving last cap point closer to the middle, rather than back next to spawn.

Download: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/propaganda.1927/download?version=12403
Screenshots: https://imgur.com/a/NEJ4B

a13 update:
-Optimization! I either made it better or worse, you decide!
-Changed the right flank from mid to be a cave instead of an awkwardly long boring hallway.
-Added balconies to some walls to make soldier slightly less strong in those areas.
-‎Moved tank on last.
-Other things I don't remember over the last couple of months.

Things I'm considering:
-Removing the dropdown from the porch on 2nd
-Adding new route to flank over water https://i.imgur.com/Iq3gehe.jpg
-‎Moving last cap point closer to the middle, rather than back next to spawn.

Download: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/propaganda.1927/download?version=12403
Screenshots: https://imgur.com/a/NEJ4B
30
#30
4 Frags +

a14 update:
Attempted to fix respawn times. It should be more similar to other 5cp maps' timings.
Added a bit more ammo to second.
Reduced sniper visibility from cave onto mid.
Reduced visibility on mid.
Added a few things to last for cover.

Download: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/propaganda.1927/download?version=12594
Screenshots: https://imgur.com/a/ZRCpK

a14 update:
Attempted to fix respawn times. It should be more similar to other 5cp maps' timings.
Added a bit more ammo to second.
Reduced sniper visibility from cave onto mid.
Reduced visibility on mid.
Added a few things to last for cover.

Download: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/propaganda.1927/download?version=12594
Screenshots: https://imgur.com/a/ZRCpK
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