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huh check that out
241
#241
6 Frags +
omniYankeeKanecoSorry but I can't wrap my head around that. And besides ETF2L has been alive and well (apart from seasonal lans, we still have insomnia tho) for as long as I can remember, and top players aren't leaving the game because "there are no lans".
The insomnia series aren't linked to etf2l, therefore you haven't made a point at all.

if NA had a regular LAN similar to the i-series, it'd be a lot easier to justify leaving ESEA because the best players would all still get to meet up and play.

Unfortunately that's not the case over here.

[quote=omni][quote=Yankee][quote=Kaneco]
Sorry but I can't wrap my head around that. And besides ETF2L has been alive and well (apart from seasonal lans, [b]we still have insomnia tho[/b]) for as long as I can remember, and top players aren't leaving the game because "[b]there are no lans[/b]". [/quote][/quote]

The insomnia series aren't linked to etf2l, therefore you haven't made a point at all.[/quote]

if NA had a regular LAN similar to the i-series, it'd be a lot easier to justify leaving ESEA because the best players would all still get to meet up and play.

Unfortunately that's not the case over here.
242
#242
-1 Frags +
FogKaneco, The EU scene does not have to be be "ESEA's bitch" as you guys already have a well established alternative league which caters to every skill tier. For us here in the US, UGC doesn't really cover much more than the lower levels of play for 6s. I really don't expect the EU scene to stick around with ESEA past this season at this point anyways.

But I don't segregate the scenes, I try to view it as a whole, so the american scene is also of my best interest, if tf2 was to thrive competitively it had to be as a whole, hence why I am so worried about the current state of the NA scene, you guys are getting screwed over and over and at the end of the day you're just like "meh it's the best we have we can't really change anything", much like the husband beating his wife analogy which honestly as far fetched as it is I think it fits the situation perfectly.

You're right as well about the EU scene not sticking with ESEA, and believe me I wanted it to work, if ESEA was doing its job even OK (it didn't even have to do a good job just do OK) and cared just enough about tf2 I would love it to succeed because I think it would or will benefit the EU scene in the long run, but in the current state of things and with ESEA blatantly ignoring our scene I dont think that will ever happen.

About the leagues, thats such a lazy excuse, CEVO seems to be back in full force and pretty interested in tf2. They even announced a Main division (if I remember well) earlier this season, just didn't follow through because they had no real numbers to do it. Besides Pipher seems like a really standup guy and genuinely interested in our scene (and surprise surprise Pure will play CEVO). Of course If a change of this magnitude was to happen it would need to have support from the majority of the players across all skill levels.

Even excluding CEVO there are still other options albeit harder to succeed definitely. Of course the ideal solution would be for ESEA to change its attitude regarding our scene and ultimately be more professional about it, but as someone watching from the outside, after plenty lan issues, tf2 discarded to last priority, the bitcoin fiasco, the client issues, all these dubious or polemic admin decisions I don't really have any trust in ESEA as an organization much less as a paid league.

YankeeSorry but I can't wrap my head around that. And besides ETF2L has been alive and well (apart from seasonal lans, we still have insomnia tho) for as long as I can remember, and top players aren't leaving the game because "there are no lans".

Stop twisting my words, you understood perfectly and if you didn't, I was talking about season lans with affiliation to the league, besides the same applies to the NA scene, if ESEA was to drop us and the lans ended you would have literally dozen of local lan options which have even had tf2 tourneys in the past.

[quote=Fog]Kaneco, The EU scene does not have to be be "ESEA's bitch" as you guys already have a well established alternative league which caters to every skill tier. For us here in the US, UGC doesn't really cover much more than the lower levels of play for 6s. I really don't expect the EU scene to stick around with ESEA past this season at this point anyways.[/quote]

But I don't segregate the scenes, I try to view it as a whole, so the american scene is also of my best interest, if tf2 was to thrive competitively it had to be as a whole, hence why I am so worried about the current state of the NA scene, you guys are getting screwed over and over and at the end of the day you're just like "meh it's the best we have we can't really change anything", much like the husband beating his wife analogy which honestly as far fetched as it is I think it fits the situation perfectly.

You're right as well about the EU scene not sticking with ESEA, and believe me I wanted it to work, if ESEA was doing its job even OK (it didn't even have to do a good job just do OK) and cared just enough about tf2 I would love it to succeed because I think it would or will benefit the EU scene in the long run, but in the current state of things and with ESEA blatantly ignoring our scene I dont think that will ever happen.

About the leagues, thats such a lazy excuse, CEVO seems to be back in full force and pretty interested in tf2. They even announced a Main division (if I remember well) earlier this season, just didn't follow through because they had no real numbers to do it. Besides Pipher seems like a really standup guy and genuinely interested in our scene ([url=http://teamfortress.tv/forum/thread/12850-cevo-tf2-s3-registration-opens-w-600-in-prizes#post-30]and surprise surprise Pure will play CEVO[/url]). Of course If a change of this magnitude was to happen it would need to have support from the majority of the players across all skill levels.

Even excluding CEVO there are still other options albeit harder to succeed definitely. Of course the ideal solution would be for ESEA to change its attitude regarding our scene and ultimately be more professional about it, but as someone watching from the outside, after plenty lan issues, tf2 discarded to last priority, the bitcoin fiasco, the client issues, all these dubious or polemic admin decisions I don't really have any trust in ESEA as an organization much less as a paid league.

[quote=Yankee]
Sorry but I can't wrap my head around that. And besides ETF2L has been alive and well (apart from seasonal lans, [b]we still have insomnia tho[/b]) for as long as I can remember, and top players aren't leaving the game because "[b]there are no lans[/b]". [/quote]
Stop twisting my words, you understood perfectly and if you didn't, I was talking about season lans with affiliation to the league, besides the same applies to the NA scene, if ESEA was to drop us and the lans ended you would have literally dozen of local lan options which have even had tf2 tourneys in the past.
243
#243
11 Frags +

Mad at your gf because she's being a bitch, still the only pussy you can get.

Mad at your gf because she's being a bitch, still the only pussy you can get.
244
#244
0 Frags +

Do leagues really need dedicated lans for finals though? Both etf2l and ozfortress don't have league-based lans, for us everyone piggybacks state-specific lans and people organize completely different teams to the ones they're core members of for a day tournament while there. I understand how much of a community lans create but it doesn't have to be esea lan for NA. ofc Insomnia runs differently considering it's a seperate tourney with a prize pool giving it some actual competitive meaning beyond the day itself like esea lan has.

If natf2 ran entirely on cevo with 3-4 divisions and a seperate lan that had a tf2 tournament with a prize pool that ran bi-yearly/yearly imo it'd be better than the current situation.

Do leagues really need dedicated lans for finals though? Both etf2l and ozfortress don't have league-based lans, for us everyone piggybacks state-specific lans and people organize completely different teams to the ones they're core members of for a day tournament while there. I understand how much of a community lans create but it doesn't have to be esea lan for NA. ofc Insomnia runs differently considering it's a seperate tourney with a prize pool giving it some actual competitive meaning beyond the day itself like esea lan has.

If natf2 ran entirely on cevo with 3-4 divisions and a seperate lan that had a tf2 tournament with a prize pool that ran bi-yearly/yearly imo it'd be better than the current situation.
245
#245
3 Frags +
KanecoSo we're resigned to being ESEA's bitch? Is that our best shot in your opinion?

You speak like TF2 is insignificant to ESEA, even if we only represent 20% of their revenue that's still 20% money lost and believe me no smart org would be letting that happen.

And if ESEA was to drop Tf2 hypothetically I am sure another org would step up and fill that gap, sure we would have some "dark ages" but after a few months everything would be fixed, now I would prefer very much a long term solution instead of limiting ourselves to this, we are better than this honestly.

no, i suggest we try and be reasonable and come together as a community and talk with esea. rather than everyone flipping their shit and getting nothing done aside from possibly getting dropped by esea.

we are nowhere near 20% of esea's income.

no, new leagues would try and jump up and snatch up the player base and promise prizes a client etc etc and it will be rushed and done by people trying to make a fast buck and the leagues will die before they ever get off the ground. you know how many "awesome, new and exciting" leagues for css popped up when people got pissed off at esea?

what we should be doing is getting a core group of top players together, making a list of things we'd like to see changed, and presenting them to ESEA like regular people. not "CHANGE THIS SHIT OR WE'RE FUCKIN GONE MAN"

oh, and we should be using client to pug. set up an irc bot like pug.na and have it PM the people who are picked which server it'll be in to try and avoid people just jumping in and being dicks. we can talk to esea about working with us on making the pug system better fit our community/game.

[quote=Kaneco]
So we're resigned to being ESEA's bitch? Is that our best shot in your opinion?

You speak like TF2 is insignificant to ESEA, even if we only represent 20% of their revenue that's still 20% money lost and believe me no smart org would be letting that happen.

And if ESEA was to drop Tf2 hypothetically I am sure another org would step up and fill that gap, sure we would have some "dark ages" but after a few months everything would be fixed, now I would prefer very much a long term solution instead of limiting ourselves to this, we are better than this honestly.[/quote]

no, i suggest we try and be reasonable and come together as a community and talk with esea. rather than everyone flipping their shit and getting nothing done aside from possibly getting dropped by esea.

we are nowhere near 20% of esea's income.

no, new leagues would try and jump up and snatch up the player base and promise prizes a client etc etc and it will be rushed and done by people trying to make a fast buck and the leagues will die before they ever get off the ground. you know how many "awesome, new and exciting" leagues for css popped up when people got pissed off at esea?


what we should be doing is getting a core group of top players together, making a list of things we'd like to see changed, and presenting them to ESEA like regular people. not "CHANGE THIS SHIT OR WE'RE FUCKIN GONE MAN"


oh, and we should be using client to pug. set up an irc bot like pug.na and have it PM the people who are picked which server it'll be in to try and avoid people just jumping in and being dicks. we can talk to esea about working with us on making the pug system better fit our community/game.
246
#246
10 Frags +
DavyC In the end: If 12 people can't find 1 hour out of 168 to play videogames when they know eachothers schedule literally the whole season, not only are they lazy and dumb as fuck, but should probably learn how a competitive, scheduled arrangement works.

No exceptions.

You lost the ability to call someone 'lazy and dumb as fuck' when you were either too lazy or too dumb to separate "at least", "video games", and "each other's" with spaces. Grammar aside, that is still one of the dumbest things I've ever read.

DavyC"In reality" is already assuming that we ought to keep the system the same, makes no sense to me why 3 days are excluded entirely out of question of matchtime, or why you cant stay up late if something like lan is important to you. Evidently you have fewer than 168 hours to operate but if you are dedicating to invite one would hope you have at least more than 8 rofl.

It doesn't matter how "important LAN is to you". TF2 is a hobby. With the exception of a select few, nobody is going to eviscerate their actual lives to schedule a game. Teams don't play on Friday or Saturday nights. Matches have and do happen on Mondays when that's the only time in the week that works for everybody--it's just not preferred. At the end of the day, invite consists of regular people with regular lives who aren't going to throw away their grades or careers just to meet a deadline for ESEA. It's an invite league with a higher cost of joining than the lower leagues. It's a "more prestigious" division, according to ESEA. ESEA appropriates penalty fees for unprofessionalism and other things. Those are enough for circumstantial treatment, in my opinion.

I do think that ESEA should allow an unpaid backup in invite and perhaps in all divisions. If your roster has 6 paid, you should be able to have a 7th player who is a backup that can play in any match without paying league fees. He is taking the place of a paid player, after all. Almost every time there is a scheduling issue in invite, it's because the teams don't want their backup to be forced to shell out $60 to play a single match.

[quote=DavyC] [b]In the end: If 12 people can't find 1 hour out of 168 to play videogames when they know eachothers schedule literally the whole season,[/b] not only are they lazy and dumb as fuck, but should probably learn how a competitive, scheduled arrangement works.

No exceptions.[/quote]

You lost the ability to call someone 'lazy and dumb as fuck' when you were either too lazy or too dumb to separate "at least", "video games", and "each other's" with spaces. Grammar aside, that is still one of the dumbest things I've ever read.

[quote=DavyC]"In reality" is already assuming that we ought to keep the system the same, makes no sense to me why 3 days are excluded entirely out of question of matchtime, or why you cant stay up late if something like lan is important to you. Evidently you have fewer than 168 hours to operate but if you are dedicating to invite one would hope you have at least more than 8 rofl.
[/quote]

It doesn't matter how "important LAN is to you". TF2 is a hobby. With the exception of a select few, nobody is going to eviscerate their actual lives to schedule a game. Teams don't play on Friday or Saturday nights. Matches have and do happen on Mondays when that's the only time in the week that works for everybody--it's just not preferred. At the end of the day, invite consists of regular people with regular lives who aren't going to throw away their grades or careers just to meet a deadline for ESEA. It's an invite league with a higher cost of joining than the lower leagues. It's a "more prestigious" division, according to ESEA. ESEA appropriates penalty fees for unprofessionalism and other things. Those are enough for circumstantial treatment, in my opinion.

I do think that ESEA should allow an unpaid backup in invite and perhaps in all divisions. If your roster has 6 paid, you should be able to have a 7th player who is a backup that can play in any match without paying league fees. He is taking the place of a paid player, after all. Almost every time there is a scheduling issue in invite, it's because the teams don't want their backup to be forced to shell out $60 to play a single match.
247
#247
25 Frags +

Agreed with smaka. Unpaid or even half paid designated backup who is only allowed to play in say 2 matches without having to pay the full fee would eliminate 95 percent of scheduling conflicts, late showings and forfeits we see.

Agreed with smaka. Unpaid or even half paid designated backup who is only allowed to play in say 2 matches without having to pay the full fee would eliminate 95 percent of scheduling conflicts, late showings and forfeits we see.
248
#248
12 Frags +
DavyCIn the end: If 12 people can't find 1 hour out of 168 to play videogames when they know eachothers schedule literally the whole season, not only are they lazy and dumb as fuck, but should probably learn how a competitive, scheduled arrangement works.

No exceptions.

Sorry that we don't take TF2 as our full time job and we are dumb as fuck.

I'm gonna wake up at 4am on Saturday to play my ESEA match next time

[quote=DavyC][b]In the end: If 12 people can't find 1 hour out of 168 to play videogames when they know eachothers schedule literally the whole season,[/b] not only are they lazy and dumb as fuck, but should probably learn how a competitive, scheduled arrangement works.

No exceptions.[/quote]

Sorry that we don't take TF2 as our full time job and we are dumb as fuck.

I'm gonna wake up at 4am on Saturday to play my ESEA match next time
249
#249
-1 Frags +
marmadukeGRYLLSno, i suggest we try and be reasonable and come together as a community and talk with esea. rather than everyone flipping their shit and getting nothing done aside from possibly getting dropped by esea.

what we should be doing is getting a core group of top players together, making a list of things we'd like to see changed, and presenting them to ESEA like regular people. not "CHANGE THIS SHIT OR WE'RE FUCKIN GONE MAN"

I agree with you, the best solution would be a pacific one but how has that solution worked out so far? Because I have seen plenty of Invite players vent their frustration or unhappiness with ESEA's decisions or lack of them in the past, and doesn't seem anything has changed.

Didn't you guys submit lots of support tickets or tried to politely talk your way into getting the client updated? Did it get updated in time? If 1 week later is in time then it sure did. It seems that is working out so far. And this is just one of the latest issues, honestly as a whole ESEA has shown a real lack of professionalism for a so called professinal league, if you say it's possible they will hear the needs of our players then you have to show me that because from what I have seen so far it looks like they dont care the slightest.

[quote=marmadukeGRYLLS]
no, i suggest we try and be reasonable and come together as a community and talk with esea. rather than everyone flipping their shit and getting nothing done aside from possibly getting dropped by esea.

what we should be doing is getting a core group of top players together, making a list of things we'd like to see changed, and presenting them to ESEA like regular people. not "CHANGE THIS SHIT OR WE'RE FUCKIN GONE MAN"
[/quote]

I agree with you, the best solution would be a pacific one but how has that solution worked out so far? Because I have seen plenty of Invite players vent their frustration or unhappiness with ESEA's decisions or lack of them in the past, and doesn't seem anything has changed.

Didn't you guys submit lots of support tickets or tried to politely talk your way into getting the client updated? Did it get updated in time? If 1 week later is in time then it sure did. It seems that is working out so far. And this is just one of the latest issues, honestly as a whole ESEA has shown a real lack of professionalism for a so called professinal league, if you say it's possible they will hear the needs of our players then you have to show me that because from what I have seen so far it looks like they dont care the slightest.
250
#250
-2 Frags +

They don't need to care, we have no where else to go and they get paid the same either way.

They don't need to care, we have no where else to go and they get paid the same either way.
251
#251
0 Frags +
HardcoreThey don't need to care, we have no where else to go and they get paid the same either way.

That sounds like a good long term plan to me then!

[quote=Hardcore]They don't need to care, we have no where else to go and they get paid the same either way.[/quote]
That sounds like a good long term plan to me then!
252
#252
3 Frags +

Clearly North America needs a version of etf2l plus someone else's LANs you can add TF2 to. Find the most competent and energetic community members to create the league.

Clearly North America needs a version of etf2l plus someone else's LANs you can add TF2 to. Find the most competent and energetic community members to create the league.
253
#253
6 Frags +

Not sure if it's already been stated but I think the main reason why "re-scheduling" in Invite was very frequent was due to Casting and appealing to the audience. So not only do you have to schedule with the 12 people playing, but also the casters from the TFTV Stream on TwitchTV, as well as a "good" time viewers will be able to watch.

Us lower division diaper shitties don't necessarily need to worry about "getting views" or coordinating with casters and/or pristine audience times. Invite, that's a different story. I also remember reschedules were due to STV being un-watchable for Casters (+audience) and would need to be delayed hour/s or another day.

Not sure if it's already been stated but I think the main reason why "re-scheduling" in Invite was very frequent was due to Casting and appealing to the audience. So not only do you have to schedule with the 12 people playing, but also the casters from the TFTV Stream on TwitchTV, as well as a "good" time viewers will be able to watch.

Us lower division diaper shitties don't necessarily need to worry about "getting views" or coordinating with casters and/or pristine audience times. Invite, that's a different story. I also remember reschedules were due to STV being un-watchable for Casters (+audience) and would need to be delayed hour/s or another day.
254
#254
2 Frags +
KanecomarmadukeGRYLLSno, i suggest we try and be reasonable and come together as a community and talk with esea. rather than everyone flipping their shit and getting nothing done aside from possibly getting dropped by esea.

what we should be doing is getting a core group of top players together, making a list of things we'd like to see changed, and presenting them to ESEA like regular people. not "CHANGE THIS SHIT OR WE'RE FUCKIN GONE MAN"

I agree with you, the best solution would be a pacific one but how has that solution worked out so far? Because I have seen plenty of Invite players vent their frustration or unhappiness with ESEA's decisions or lack of them in the past, and doesn't seem anything has changed.

Didn't you guys submit lots of support tickets or tried to politely talk your way into getting the client updated? Did it get updated in time? If 1 week later is in time then it sure did. It seems that is working out so far. And this is just one of the latest issues, honestly as a whole ESEA has shown a real lack of professionalism for a so called professinal league, if you say it's possible they will hear the needs of our players then you have to show me that because from what I have seen so far it looks like they dont care the slightest.

honestly man you're preaching to the choir

NA TF2 thrives on independent support, i've said this via stream 3482374234576 times but just to make myself 110% clear (incoming nerd essay with bad grammar)

you need to realize that we already have a handful of people that do their part (when they don't even have to but simply do for love of the community/game) and then some

fog with pug.na and the dm servers (sponsor support), nahanni with the AG community/sponsorship, klanana with the jump it servers and sponsorship support, enigma running tf.tv, everyone who puts the time in to cast matches regular season and lan etc the list goes on

just take a moment and let this sink in, no one is forcing any of them to do all this but they're seriously dedicated and they do so much for the NA TF2 scene (arguably more since everyone has access to what they provide) this is all VERY time consuming and not free at all

ESEA has been the premier league for NA comp games for a long time now, yeah of course it can be a real bitch with client/server issues, shitty admins etc any other complaints you can toss out there

NA TF2 doesn't have the resources to run an independent league, you seriously need to stop simplifying things and just come to terms that ESEA is the best we got and thats it there is NO sugarcoating it at all, without ESEA you wouldn't see a LAN and you bet your ass a lot of high level players would quit and/or go on a very long hiatus and our scene would be on life support, it would be really really ugly

the idea of us having our own league is completely unrealistic, it would take tons of time, patience, money and x10 the independent support we already have. a lot of people have jobs/school and other things on their plate, the EU scene is massive when compared to NA. you guys are very fortunate to have etf2l and all the lan's, we have a decent amount as well (I.E intel, pax, ets) etc but it is only limited to those in that area

yeah it would be wonderful if we had our own league, our own lan etc things of that nature but the money isn't there, the support is strong among individuals but it would take a lot more, much more than you can even imagine

we're extremely fortunate that tf2 hasn't been dropped from ESEA (yet) why you ask?

counterstrike has been around for over a decade and it built a very impressive following right out the gate, TFC not so much....yes it had a comp scene but it wasn't recognized internationally like cs.

cs 1.6 became an instant classic and was in ESEA for a long time. what happened though? CS source happened...well ESEA wasn't going to hesitate to pick that up even though the cs 1.6 community was still going strong, well if you don't wanna make the switch over sorry not our problem, a lot of people stopped playing all together because they don't care for source, well that didn't last long at all....cs:go is here! <---?????? holy fuck 2 titles back to back, something i thought i would never see. i played tfc and cs 1.3, after i quit comp with 1.6 i thought it was great that they still had so many people supporting an old game, but ESEA doesn't hesitate to switch to the next big thing. THIS is what its all about. valve support is a pipe dream, ESEA is the reality here, FPS games have taken a huge blow with the popularity of games like dota,league, sc2 etc and we're just hanging on here

my point is this, tfc was overshadowed by a handful of fps games when it came out. if this wasn't the case then some people can argue that maybe tf2 would have way more recognition from a competitive stand point and a much bigger following now, its no surprise to me that the majority of tf2 players never even touched TFC and have no intention of doing so and realizing how this game was completely raw oh so long ago.

so in conclusion to all of my rambling, i hope you and more people understand that ESEA is the best we got , leagues come and go, they have a ton of issues like i stated before, but they still provide lan and prizes, obviously a lot of top players (veterans to this game) can make do with that otherwise they would've left quite some time ago...most have already with no sign of returning. who knows what will happen if lpkane decides to stop supporting tf2, i can assure you it wouldn't be pretty

[quote=Kaneco][quote=marmadukeGRYLLS]
no, i suggest we try and be reasonable and come together as a community and talk with esea. rather than everyone flipping their shit and getting nothing done aside from possibly getting dropped by esea.

what we should be doing is getting a core group of top players together, making a list of things we'd like to see changed, and presenting them to ESEA like regular people. not "CHANGE THIS SHIT OR WE'RE FUCKIN GONE MAN"
[/quote]

I agree with you, the best solution would be a pacific one but how has that solution worked out so far? Because I have seen plenty of Invite players vent their frustration or unhappiness with ESEA's decisions or lack of them in the past, and doesn't seem anything has changed.

Didn't you guys submit lots of support tickets or tried to politely talk your way into getting the client updated? Did it get updated in time? If 1 week later is in time then it sure did. It seems that is working out so far. And this is just one of the latest issues, honestly as a whole ESEA has shown a real lack of professionalism for a so called professinal league, if you say it's possible they will hear the needs of our players then you have to show me that because from what I have seen so far it looks like they dont care the slightest.[/quote]


honestly man you're preaching to the choir

NA TF2 thrives on independent support, i've said this via stream 3482374234576 times but just to make myself 110% clear (incoming nerd essay with bad grammar)


you need to realize that we already have a handful of people that do their part (when they don't even have to but simply do for love of the community/game) and then some

fog with pug.na and the dm servers (sponsor support), nahanni with the AG community/sponsorship, klanana with the jump it servers and sponsorship support, enigma running tf.tv, everyone who puts the time in to cast matches regular season and lan etc the list goes on

just take a moment and let this sink in, no one is forcing any of them to do all this but they're seriously dedicated and they do so much for the NA TF2 scene (arguably more since everyone has access to what they provide) this is all VERY time consuming and not free at all

ESEA has been the premier league for NA comp games for a long time now, yeah of course it can be a real bitch with client/server issues, shitty admins etc any other complaints you can toss out there

NA TF2 doesn't have the resources to run an independent league, you seriously need to stop simplifying things and just come to terms that ESEA is the best we got and thats it there is NO sugarcoating it at all, without ESEA you wouldn't see a LAN and you bet your ass a lot of high level players would quit and/or go on a very long hiatus and our scene would be on life support, it would be really really ugly

the idea of us having our own league is completely unrealistic, it would take tons of time, patience, money and x10 the independent support we already have. a lot of people have jobs/school and other things on their plate, the EU scene is massive when compared to NA. you guys are very fortunate to have etf2l and all the lan's, we have a decent amount as well (I.E intel, pax, ets) etc but it is only limited to those in that area

yeah it would be wonderful if we had our own league, our own lan etc things of that nature but the money isn't there, the support is strong among individuals but it would take a lot more, much more than you can even imagine

we're extremely fortunate that tf2 hasn't been dropped from ESEA (yet) why you ask?

counterstrike has been around for over a decade and it built a very impressive following right out the gate, TFC not so much....yes it had a comp scene but it wasn't recognized internationally like cs.

cs 1.6 became an instant classic and was in ESEA for a long time. what happened though? CS source happened...well ESEA wasn't going to hesitate to pick that up even though the cs 1.6 community was still going strong, well if you don't wanna make the switch over sorry not our problem, a lot of people stopped playing all together because they don't care for source, well that didn't last long at all....cs:go is here! <---?????? holy fuck 2 titles back to back, something i thought i would never see. i played tfc and cs 1.3, after i quit comp with 1.6 i thought it was great that they still had so many people supporting an old game, but ESEA doesn't hesitate to switch to the next big thing. THIS is what its all about. valve support is a pipe dream, ESEA is the reality here, FPS games have taken a huge blow with the popularity of games like dota,league, sc2 etc and we're just hanging on here

my point is this, tfc was overshadowed by a handful of fps games when it came out. if this wasn't the case then some people can argue that maybe tf2 would have way more recognition from a competitive stand point and a much bigger following now, its no surprise to me that the majority of tf2 players never even touched TFC and have no intention of doing so and realizing how this game was completely raw oh so long ago.

so in conclusion to all of my rambling, i hope you and more people understand that ESEA is the best we got , leagues come and go, they have a ton of issues like i stated before, but they still provide lan and prizes, obviously a lot of top players (veterans to this game) can make do with that otherwise they would've left quite some time ago...most have already with no sign of returning. who knows what will happen if lpkane decides to stop supporting tf2, i can assure you it wouldn't be pretty
255
#255
0 Frags +

This is reminding me of when we had multiple leagues who supported us and we didn't rely on just one. TWL, CEVO, ESEA and some "smaller" ones. We also had tons of sponsors at the time too.

Oh, what I would do to make that so again while keeping our constant rise in viewership/popularity.

This is reminding me of when we had multiple leagues who supported us and we didn't rely on just one. TWL, CEVO, ESEA and some "smaller" ones. We also had tons of sponsors at the time too.

Oh, what I would do to make that so again while keeping our constant rise in viewership/popularity.
256
#256
-9 Frags +
smakersYou lost the ability to call someone 'lazy and dumb as fuck' when you were either too lazy or too dumb to separate "at least", "video games", and "each other's" with spaces. Grammar aside, that is still one of the dumbest things I've ever read.

really now? he was an idiot but this makes you look pretty dumb too

[quote=smakers]
You lost the ability to call someone 'lazy and dumb as fuck' when you were either too lazy or too dumb to separate "at least", "video games", and "each other's" with spaces. Grammar aside, that is still one of the dumbest things I've ever read.
[/quote]
really now? he was an idiot but this makes you look pretty dumb too
257
#257
-5 Frags +

wrong

wrong
258
#258
2 Frags +

Has anybody tried to contact FaceIT? They seem pretty FPS-friendly.

Has anybody tried to contact FaceIT? They seem pretty FPS-friendly.
259
#259
1 Frags +

To add onto what defy said...the biggest difference between TF2 and TFC is that TFC was entirely community run. The 3 main leagues (IGL, TFL, STA) were all run by community members / active players with very little and some cases no funding at all...however all 3 leagues were successful for many years. Even though TFC was overshadowed by CS...the competative community in both US and EU was massively larger than TF2. Though the leagues were all run very well, there was no prize money, LAN, or stats. Coming from 8 years of playing TFC and never seeing a penny, to the first TF2 tournament handing out $300 headsets was definitely a change. ESEA gives the players all the fringe benefits that we have become accustomed to, but we pay a premium (no pun intended), and are at the mercy of their rules, admins, and clients. I'm not trying to say ESEA is a bad league, hell even some of the issues (late payments, roster swapping, etc) aren't their problem.

I don't necessarily agree that a community league can't be done, but it won't be in the same format to what most people are use to....on top of that alot of people would have to step up and contribute. I'd love to see a community run league, obviously something like TFTV league where it's run by players for players. I would gladly help donate to get something started, and honestly i could give 0 shits about winning money...however i know many people would be turned off by either reduced or no prize money. People expect to win something now for their 40+ hour weeks of TF2, and i can't necessarily say i don't blame them...however that puts them at the mercy of whatever league they are paying to play in. At the end of the day, ESEA is a business - not just a gaming league. They are here to make money and provide a service...and regardless of how good/bad the service is, as long as people continue to pay they will be the only game in town.

To add onto what defy said...the biggest difference between TF2 and TFC is that TFC was entirely community run. The 3 main leagues (IGL, TFL, STA) were all run by community members / active players with very little and some cases no funding at all...however all 3 leagues were successful for many years. Even though TFC was overshadowed by CS...the competative community in both US and EU was massively larger than TF2. Though the leagues were all run very well, there was no prize money, LAN, or stats. Coming from 8 years of playing TFC and never seeing a penny, to the first TF2 tournament handing out $300 headsets was definitely a change. ESEA gives the players all the fringe benefits that we have become accustomed to, but we pay a premium (no pun intended), and are at the mercy of their rules, admins, and clients. I'm not trying to say ESEA is a bad league, hell even some of the issues (late payments, roster swapping, etc) aren't their problem.

I don't necessarily agree that a community league can't be done, but it won't be in the same format to what most people are use to....on top of that alot of people would have to step up and contribute. I'd love to see a community run league, obviously something like TFTV league where it's run by players for players. I would gladly help donate to get something started, and honestly i could give 0 shits about winning money...however i know many people would be turned off by either reduced or no prize money. People expect to win something now for their 40+ hour weeks of TF2, and i can't necessarily say i don't blame them...however that puts them at the mercy of whatever league they are paying to play in. At the end of the day, ESEA is a business - not just a gaming league. They are here to make money and provide a service...and regardless of how good/bad the service is, as long as people continue to pay they will be the only game in town.
260
#260
4 Frags +

Community run league with an annual LAN wouldn't be a problem if transportation across NA wasnt expensive as hell. Like if you thought plane tickets are expensive in America, its reaching dumb levels in Canada, and that makes it kind of hard for all of NA to kind of meet at a community LAN like ETS, Intel, PAX, whatever

Community run league with an annual LAN wouldn't be a problem if transportation across NA wasnt expensive as hell. Like if you thought plane tickets are expensive in America, its reaching dumb levels in Canada, and that makes it kind of hard for all of NA to kind of meet at a community LAN like ETS, Intel, PAX, whatever
261
#261
0 Frags +
downpourCommunity run league with an annual LAN wouldn't be a problem if transportation across NA wasnt expensive as hell. Like if you thought plane tickets are expensive in America, its reaching dumb levels in Canada, and that makes it kind of hard for all of NA to kind of meet at a community LAN like ETS, Intel, PAX, whatever

This is the last year I think I'll be involved (and might be its last year total) with my college's LAN party, but previously I had spoken with the other guy who runs it about doing a more competitive, private event. We were talking about doing our own TF2 league with actually prizes and finals on LAN, but it came down to costs; not costs for us (we have plenty of connections here in Michigan), but for people to travel out here. If it were easier for people to get across the country for a LAN, we would have been hosting bigger cash events for the past two years.

[quote=downpour]Community run league with an annual LAN wouldn't be a problem if transportation across NA wasnt expensive as hell. Like if you thought plane tickets are expensive in America, its reaching dumb levels in Canada, and that makes it kind of hard for all of NA to kind of meet at a community LAN like ETS, Intel, PAX, whatever[/quote]

This is the last year I think I'll be involved (and might be its last year total) with my college's LAN party, but previously I had spoken with the other guy who runs it about doing a more competitive, private event. We were talking about doing our own TF2 league with actually prizes and finals on LAN, but it came down to costs; not costs for us (we have plenty of connections here in Michigan), but for people to travel out here. If it were easier for people to get across the country for a LAN, we would have been hosting bigger cash events for the past two years.
262
#262
RGB LAN
0 Frags +
synchroThis is the last year I think I'll be involved (and might be its last year total) with my college's LAN party, but previously I had spoken with the other guy who runs it about doing a more competitive, private event. We were talking about doing our own TF2 league with actually prizes and finals on LAN, but it came down to costs; not costs for us (we have plenty of connections here in Michigan), but for people to travel out here. If it were easier for people to get across the country for a LAN, we would have been hosting bigger cash events for the past two years.

I've had a very similar conversation with enigma a while ago, and we came to basically the same conclusion that you did. I absolutely wouldn't mind trying to get something together to host a TF2 LAN (very possible, since GXL could probably hold a tournament-only LAN party). However, I just know that not many people would be interested in traveling long distances to make it.

It would also be awesome to have European teams come, but there is no way that would happen without a decent guaranteed prize pot.

[quote=synchro]This is the last year I think I'll be involved (and might be its last year total) with my college's LAN party, but previously I had spoken with the other guy who runs it about doing a more competitive, private event. We were talking about doing our own TF2 league with actually prizes and finals on LAN, but it came down to costs; not costs for us (we have plenty of connections here in Michigan), but for people to travel out here. If it were easier for people to get across the country for a LAN, we would have been hosting bigger cash events for the past two years.[/quote]

I've had a very similar conversation with enigma a while ago, and we came to basically the same conclusion that you did. I absolutely wouldn't mind trying to get something together to host a TF2 LAN (very possible, since GXL could probably hold a tournament-only LAN party). However, I just know that not many people would be interested in traveling long distances to make it.

It would also be awesome to have European teams come, but there is no way that would happen without a decent guaranteed prize pot.
263
#263
1 Frags +

So if I can just ramble about my pipe dreams for a league/LAN type situation.

I'd like to see a community-centered LAN, simlar to GXL, with freeplay events and TF2 events and maybe a smattering of other games. Travel would be reasonably priced if people knew sufficiently ahead of time so that they could book cheap travel (and as it is, some people flew to GXL). Additionally, you'd have some feeling for the potential prize pot if people bought tickets sufficiently ahead of time.

Where my pipe dreams differ from exactly what happens with LANs like GXL is I like the idea of a pre-LAN "season" to determine seeds for LAN playoffs. While every team could guarantee they'd play at LAN, chances of winning first would depend on the pre-LAN season. Additionally, teams that placed, say, in top 3 in the pre-LAN season would get something like a $200 credit perperson to offset travel costs, making some solidly competitive matches more likely at LAN.

While it doesn't solve the cross-country travel problem, it ameliorates it for top teams. Also, regardless of how much is done in that regard, some people won't be able to make a LAN :(.

Honestly, with a monetary sponsor, something like this could be done to supplement the CEVO competition as it is. CEVO already has cash prizes for the winners.

Before you tear this idea apart for being unrealistic, I'll re-iterate that it's just a pipe dream.

So if I can just ramble about my pipe dreams for a league/LAN type situation.

I'd like to see a community-centered LAN, simlar to GXL, with freeplay events and TF2 events and maybe a smattering of other games. Travel would be reasonably priced if people knew sufficiently ahead of time so that they could book cheap travel (and as it is, some people flew to GXL). Additionally, you'd have some feeling for the potential prize pot if people bought tickets sufficiently ahead of time.

Where my pipe dreams differ from exactly what happens with LANs like GXL is I like the idea of a pre-LAN "season" to determine seeds for LAN playoffs. While every team could guarantee they'd play at LAN, chances of winning first would depend on the pre-LAN season. Additionally, teams that placed, say, in top 3 in the pre-LAN season would get something like a $200 credit perperson to offset travel costs, making some solidly competitive matches more likely at LAN.

While it doesn't solve the cross-country travel problem, it ameliorates it for top teams. Also, regardless of how much is done in that regard, some people won't be able to make a LAN :(.

Honestly, with a monetary sponsor, something like this could be done to supplement the CEVO competition as it is. CEVO already has cash prizes for the winners.

Before you tear this idea apart for being unrealistic, I'll re-iterate that it's just a pipe dream.
264
#264
2 Frags +
Phaser Even though TFC was overshadowed by CS...the competative community in both US and EU was massively larger than TF2.

highly skeptical

[quote=Phaser] Even though TFC was overshadowed by CS...the competative community in both US and EU was massively larger than TF2. [/quote]

highly skeptical
265
#265
0 Frags +
defycs 1.6 became an instant classic and was in ESEA for a long time. what happened though? CS source happened...well ESEA wasn't going to hesitate to pick that up even though the cs 1.6 community was still going strong, well if you don't wanna make the switch over sorry not our problem, a lot of people stopped playing all together because they don't care for source, well that didn't last long at all....cs:go is here! <---?????? holy fuck 2 titles back to back, something i thought i would never see. i played tfc and cs 1.3, after i quit comp with 1.6 i thought it was great that they still had so many people supporting an old game, but ESEA doesn't hesitate to switch to the next big thing. THIS is what its all about. valve support is a pipe dream, ESEA is the reality here, FPS games have taken a huge blow with the popularity of games like dota,league, sc2 etc and we're just hanging on here

I do agree with everything you have said but you are wrong about this. 1.6 started in s1 of esea and continued to now(s15). Source started in s2 and continued to s14. 1.6 invite started in s2 and continued to s13. Source invite started in s3 and continued to s12. ESEA picked up and ran leagues for both 1.6 and source because people played in them but even now that source has been dropped for GO, 1.6 open is still around.

[quote=defy]
cs 1.6 became an instant classic and was in ESEA for a long time. what happened though? CS source happened...well ESEA wasn't going to hesitate to pick that up even though the cs 1.6 community was still going strong, well if you don't wanna make the switch over sorry not our problem, a lot of people stopped playing all together because they don't care for source, well that didn't last long at all....cs:go is here! <---?????? holy fuck 2 titles back to back, something i thought i would never see. i played tfc and cs 1.3, after i quit comp with 1.6 i thought it was great that they still had so many people supporting an old game, but ESEA doesn't hesitate to switch to the next big thing. THIS is what its all about. valve support is a pipe dream, ESEA is the reality here, FPS games have taken a huge blow with the popularity of games like dota,league, sc2 etc and we're just hanging on here
[/quote]

I do agree with everything you have said but you are wrong about this. 1.6 started in s1 of esea and continued to now(s15). Source started in s2 and continued to s14. 1.6 invite started in s2 and continued to s13. Source invite started in s3 and continued to s12. ESEA picked up and ran leagues for both 1.6 and source because people played in them but even now that source has been dropped for GO, 1.6 open is still around.
266
#266
4 Frags +
2cPhaser Even though TFC was overshadowed by CS...the competative community in both US and EU was massively larger than TF2.
highly skeptical

If hes talking about Comp tfc vs 6v6 tf2 then hes right, but if you combine HL with 6s probably not.

[quote=2c][quote=Phaser] Even though TFC was overshadowed by CS...the competative community in both US and EU was massively larger than TF2. [/quote]

highly skeptical[/quote]

If hes talking about Comp tfc vs 6v6 tf2 then hes right, but if you combine HL with 6s probably not.
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