don't turn this into an overwatch thread please it's already bad enough
YeeHaw
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| Signed Up | June 15, 2015 |
| Last Posted | April 18, 2024 at 5:50 PM |
| Posts | 1554 (0.5 per day) |
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#31
Ban the crossbow
in
TF2 General Discussion
4812622YeeHawWho said he was taking 1v1s lol?
"All the damage you do is irrelevant as you [ie the roamer] have to actually kill the guy"
This is the reason people say that the crossbow would increase the pace of the game. It's harder to stabilise your team's health after you lose a point, which means teams can use momentum to play more aggresively.
I have never argued against this, but it does counter OP's point that roamer is especially fucked over by the Crossbow.
People still used crossbow when the scout speed nerf was not implemented. Do you really think people will use the overdose instead of crossbow lol? It hasn't been used for many years.
Okay, the Overdose thing is irrelevant.
I am perfectly fine with nobody ever using Syringe Guns because they're boring as hell. They need to have some sort of Uber or healing mechanic or nobody will ever use them over the Crossbow because you're punished every time you take them out.
I guess what I meant was that the weakness of the Crossbow was, in large part, negated by the Scout speed change, and while needles wouldn't become meta, the crossbow would not be as overpowered.
Firstly, ridiculous false equivalence. 6v6 as it is now with 1 change in the whitelist is a vastly different change from 5 scouts + 1 med. Secondly, 99% of crossbows are just on players standing still waiting for an arrow after they tanked damage from choke. The number of times a skillful crossbow shot happens in a map is the same as the number of times a skillful play with needles happens.
It was never meant to be equivalent. The goal of the example is to show that "making the game fast" isn't the end goal of balance, the goal is creating something entertaining to play, and making the game faster is one metric of fun gameplay. another is skill-indexing. i cannot think of any role in a competitive video game that is so low skill, high reward as medic.
I have no idea where you're getting this 99% metric. Have you never had a Soldier or Demo to half health in a team fight? Do you actually go for 1 difficult shot (defined as arrowing someone who is not walking in a straight line or standing still) out of 100 arrows? Because that's...ridiculously low.
Also, why do you think that only max rampup crossbows are difficult? mid- and close-range arrows take just as much skill.
but it doesn't outweigh the disadvantages of the crossbow (anoying to play against (if someone gets arrowed in a 1v1 or similar situation),
stickies are annoying when i drop to a trap. scattergun is annoying when i get 2shot by 185 scouts. everything that isn't severely underpowered can be construed as annoying.
slows the game down and makes it hard/impossible to accurately track ubers and push off small advantages).
bolded statements are redundant.
it is more difficult to track uber when arrows can build, but it is possible. if nothing is happening, their combo isn't peeking a choke while getting tanked, they're probably arrow building. arrow building has a finite maximum rate just like normal building.
i grant you that it is harder to push off of damage advantage. it is, admittedly, a weakness of giving Medic the ability to hit high reward shots that actually take some measure of skill. Unfortunately, I don't gain as much fun pushing off of damage as I want to kill myself at the thought of being forced to play Medic without the Crossbow.
At the end of the day, all of this is meaningless if you have not tried out the change in a serious scrim environment. I have, and it enabled us to push off damage and caused the game to be far less stalematey. BAN.
Played it for half a week of scrims when loadouts were broken. Outside of the 15 seconds per scrim I ran at people with needles, it was fucking terrible.
Allow.
Fair enough. I play scout so I don't see it from a medic's perspective, but I don't agree that the game being slower is worth the game being less fun for the med. 10/12 people's fun > 2/12 people's fun.
posted about 6 years ago
#21
Ban the crossbow
in
TF2 General Discussion
4812622Roamer class even more useless
-All the damage you do is irrelevant as you have to actually kill the guy, otherwise he will be arrowed up again.
Stop taking 1v1s as roamer. It was a losing strategy with or without the crossbow. If you commit with your team, your damage will matter. Roamer benefits most from the Crossbow because you don't have to scrounge for health kits.
Who said he was taking 1v1s lol?
4812622Also, 0% heal door bitch roamer was at least as common, and probably more common, before the crossbow had passive reload (look at tagg and aporia's heals per minute, http://www.vanillatf2.org/2013/08/i49-by-the-numbers/). The crossbow allows the roamer to posture more aggressively, but if the crossbow didn't exist, you would be forced to avoid damage in stalemates so you'd have enough health to push with your team.
This is the reason people say that the crossbow would increase the pace of the game. It's harder to stabilise your team's health after you lose a point, which means teams can use momentum to play more aggresively.
4812622Its like the direct hit
-Seriously, it does 1 000 000 damage at any range and it takes no skill to aim.
The Crossbow's weakness has always been that it is absolute ass at fighting people up close compared to needles. Honestly, it'd be a big nerf to Crossbow if there was a plugin that removed Medic speed when healing Scouts, which makes the Overdose speed buff irrelevant and makes it pointless to fight people with Crossbow when you can just run away faster than they can catch up.
People still used crossbow when the scout speed nerf was not implemented. Do you really think people will use the overdose instead of crossbow lol? It hasn't been used for many years.
4812622It makes the game slower
-no longer in or out, now it's: "I'm in, nevermind I got denied, let me wait 2 sec so I can be arrowed and then I can go back in"
-Pushing of damage can no longer be done.
You know what would make the game faster? If we played 5 Scout 1 Medic, or better yet, 3v3 Scouts only.
A faster game is not always better or more fun. What you fail to realize is that playing Medic without the Crossbow is the most mind-numbingly, skull-crushingly boring thing you could possibly do in TF2, including HL Heavy, prophunt, endif, and Rancho Relaxo-ing in spawn for hours on end on a 32 man Badwater server. It does not take brainpower to heal Scouts or follow around your pocket and M2 when he tells you to. Backpedaling while spamming needles is similarly braindead, and the times where "+fwd with needles" is optimal is maybe, MAYBE once a game. Hitting crossbows, surfing rockets, and playing on a better team than you deserve from your DM are the three things that are remotely entertaining about Medic. I grant you that it builds too fast with no telegraph, I grant you that it is harder to push off of damage, I grant you that it should be nerfed. I am still firmly of the belief that banning it would be a terrible, terrible mistake. Removing the last vestige of entertainment to be had from playing Medic to make the game marginally faster is not worth it.
Firstly, ridiculous false equivalence. 6v6 as it is now with 1 change in the whitelist is a vastly different change from 5 scouts + 1 med. Secondly, 99% of crossbows are just on players standing still waiting for an arrow after they tanked damage from choke. The number of times a skillful crossbow shot happens in a map is the same as the number of times a skillful play with needles happens. The one time a map that a crossbow shot is actually aimed is nice (for the medic), but it doesn't outweigh the disadvantages of the crossbow (anoying to play against (if someone gets arrowed in a 1v1 or similar situation), slows the game down and makes it hard/impossible to accurately track ubers and push off small advantages).
Ultimately, the crossbow takes more than it gives to the game. Would you make these same arguments if the crossbow wasn't in the game and was just an idea for a weapon? Would you want such a weapon in the game?
At the end of the day, all of this is meaningless if you have not tried out the change in a serious scrim environment. I have, and it enabled us to push off damage and caused the game to be far less stalematey. BAN.
posted about 6 years ago
#13
Ban the crossbow
in
TF2 General Discussion
the crossbow makes the game worse and i think the game would be better and more fast paced without it, but it's been unbanned for so many seasons now that people are used to it, and don't want to make the jump after it is banned. so it will probably stay unbanned.
posted about 6 years ago
#21
Highlight: garbuglio vs. Froyotech
in
Videos
camperZestywatch some of the mix^ i52 games and you'll see seagull carryingany suggestions? i could kill some time
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cfyXz7PZZEY
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xh1kZt6cEVg
posted about 7 years ago
#781
PugChamp
in
Projects
YeeHawPugchamp could try out a week/weekend with no crossbow so people can form their opinions on it maybe?
posted about 7 years ago
#275
can we ban most unlocks yet?
in
Q/A Help
Pugchamp could try out a week/weekend with no crossbow so people can form their opinions on it maybe?
posted about 7 years ago
#17
Vote Pembo18
in
The Dumpster
oJannouncement just in that James and Pembo have formed a Scouse Alliance
soon to be the scouse empire?
posted about 7 years ago
#15
Vote Pembo18
in
The Dumpster
shorasVote vouri (that's not me)
Sasamivote for vouri wtf
s c u m
posted about 7 years ago
#5210
Frag Clips Thread
in
Videos
georgebaiihttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CGYjE-ApEw
Shitty 4k's pls no hate :(
that's pretty sick ngl
posted about 7 years ago
#16
Thank you all
in
TF2 General Discussion
Truly a tragic loss.
Who's your replacement?
posted about 7 years ago
#237
can we ban most unlocks yet?
in
Q/A Help
FreedeerfCan we step back from the crossbow for a second and look at how stupid the market gardener is?
Why should a soldier be granted a pick for swinging once? If you have a soldier flying right towards your med, there is not much to do unless you have scouts. It is either hitting a nut airshot or watching your med get picked.
Shit is fucked.
Well there's your problem, its the same as a normal soldier bomb but it has even less chance of working.
Based on playing the no xbow cup, I think it should be banned next season. I'm just a scout though, did any sollies/demos/medics have any problem with it?
posted about 7 years ago
#234
can we ban most unlocks yet?
in
Q/A Help
From playing the whitelist cup, I'm having so much fun with the crossbow being unbanned. It opens up a lot of pushes based off of damage and makes spam (soldier and demo) much stronger.
posted about 7 years ago
#11
cp_gullywash corner stuck bug
in
Map Discussion
Another hiding spot to add to my collection
posted about 7 years ago