While it may be useful there, a Wrangled Mini is likely 10x better. Especially since the main cart pushers will usually be Scout, Engineer and Sniper when the combo is away.

I'm mainly thinking of the defensive level 3 though. Wrangler is unarguably superior because not only can you sponge the damage without losing the sentry, but you can fire back - no damage drop off and aim assist included.

I don't think the goal is to make Pyro a full-time possibility in 6v6. The goal is to try and have the majority of weapons be balanced so that mainly player preference and strategy dictate what's used. Not simply because something is viewed as either so good it's necessary (Wrangler and Vitasaw) or straight up broken (Pomson and Enforcer).

Anyhow, concerning your points:

1) Detonator jumps - Yes please, increasing jump height/distance is welcome in my book.

2) Flare Gun/Detonator combination - No. You trade off the reliable high-damage crit flares to gain the Detonator's mobility. The Detonator is good as-is besides my gripes about increasing the jump distance.

3) Passive Scout is more about covering your Demo's back than your combo's back. Beyond that, you clean up what your other Scout and Roamer initiates.

4) A good Scout is the second worse thing a Pyro can face in a 1v1 (only beat out by a really good Soldier). Shotgun is no more a guarantee than Flare. Honestly, if I can stall the little bugger for a moment to burn him, a 90 damage Flare will work just as well if not better.

5) Shotgun on Pyro is for meting out damage on targets beyond your primary's range. You're trading pin-pointed long-range burst damage for reliable mid-range meat shots.

And here's the big one: You're not giving any of the nine classes an extra weapon slot. This is something that will never happen, let alone for fewer than all nine classes.

Remember, while we agree that Pyro might need a minor tweak yet to get him "perfect," we're not trying to form-fit him into 6v6. We're trying to balance and fix all class' weapons in general.

You sir have put to words what I've wanted to much more eloquently than I ever could hope to. Kudos.

Besides my previous post about the Disciplinary Action needing a range fix and Huntsman needing a visual effects fix, could we also discuss the Short Circuit?

Looking at the Google Doc we have so far, I feel the Short Circuit is similar to the Quick-Fix/Vaccinator in that when compared to other options (read: the Wrangler) it's simply so situational and weak there's no reason to use it. It's not a bad weapon, and it's a pretty good concept actually, but there is no reason to even consider it when you can have the Wrangler block 66% of all incoming damage sources and give you essentially endless range, and aim-assisted targeting. Why even bother trying to delete a few projectiles from existence when you can sponge them and repair once it's safe?

Pyro's only recourse if he cannot close distance and use airblast to control your movement is the 90 damage crit flare. This assumes he can hit you at least twice before you either kill him or get behind cover. Furthermore, he only has 1 shot per 2 seconds, as opposed to Soldier's Rockets which are at .8 seconds, or Demo's Pipes and Sticky Bombs which are both at .6 seconds per shot. Flare Gun is nowhere near top dog in the midrange+ argument - by the time it starts being more reliable damage than Rockets/Pipes/Stickies again, Sniper is popping up on the graph.

ANYHOW, enough arguing about Pyro for now, I think we agree he needs some tweaking still, on to other things.

Two things I'd like to mention are the Disciplinary Action's massive range - the wiki states it at being 70% larger than other melee weapons. That's a larger range than Demoman swords! Soldier is able to hit enemies behind him with the whip, and that's something that needs fixing.

The other happens to be visual bugs involving the Huntsman. The wiki states that cancelling your shot or going for a swim both removes the flame particle effect from ignited arrows, but apparently does not change said arrow's ability to light a target on fire.

I don't feel the two can honestly be compared. Air Blast is a core class mechanic (every Pyro primary but the Phlog has it, unlike Natascha being the only minigun having a type of movement control). Furthermore, Natascha slows you to a crawl allowing the Heavy to essentially make up for the lost damage because it takes you longer to get to cover (and lets not forget lag compensation and how it affect hitscan weapons).

Pyro, on the other hand, has to get in his required CQC range first; secondly, air blast is exactly for controlling enemy movement. Once you let a Pyro grab you with his air blast, the inevitable stream of fire followed by either a flare or axe to your face is a given. If you just avoid engaging a Pyro at close quarters and feeding him easy reflects, his only way of dealing good damage is hitting you with multiple flares. You'd better be damn good at weapon heckling otherwise, or you'll likely lose a shotgun duel.

Didn't they patch something to fix "ground stalling?" FWIW, as a Pyro, I think being able to lock a person in place on the ground is 100% worse than juggling them in the air. It makes crit flares or Axtinguishes significantly cheaper ammo-wise. You only need 21 primary ammo instead of a potential 41 (or 61 if you're having a really bad day).

Assuming you are reflecting at a slight down angle, you'l likely send the other player backwards if the ground is even from my experience. This would reduce the damage to them by a slight amount, which is obviously not the most desirable situation. Something I think I might wanna test out a bit though...

Bad bad bad. I think it's unfair to have Pyro reflect slower than Soldier can shoot. It's equally unfair Pyro can simply spam 2 air blasts in a row without thinking for 2 reflects. These numbers should be the same - right now I don't see how that extra .05s can suddenly make consecutive reflects significantly more difficult, if not impossible. Definitely something that's needing a close examining and fix.

Damn, poor Pyro, what'd he do to draw this much vitriol?

I was talking with a friend who linked me this thread and we were discussing Pyro for a few minutes. IIRC, Pyro, upon first getting the air blast mechanic, had these stipulations regarding it (correct me if I'm wrong):

1. 25 ammo per blast
2. No minicrits on reflected projectiles
3. Couldn't 1 reflect:1 rocket trade with Soldier

Now the way I see it, the one thing Pyro has essentially "grown to require" is the Air Blast (as opposed to the Degreaser's quick-switch "safety net" as most typical Pyro mains I talk to say). However, we were talking about exactly how well balanced it was. In my opinion, the only of those three rules I have any issue with would be the third one. As someone who spends all their time focusing on just Medic and Pyro whenever I play in a competitive format, I honestly don't feel the other two would hurt Pyro's ability to be useful at all.

On the point of the Degreaser, as a heavy user of it, I tend to agree. I was just playing vanilla Pyro again since talking with my friend, and while I still want to experiment for a few more days yet, after just 2 hours I don't find I miss the Degreaser at all (well, besides the fact I'm missing reflect/extinguish/posthumous kills counts because mine's strange :P). Like I said in my previous post, I think the main issue is that the switch speed bonus is simply too high. Dropping to 40% or under would be a good start.

Reserve shooter is weird. It's a niche weapon, and I think the only real "reason" for complaining about it is that it's 100% easier to juggle enemies as Pyro than Soldier. The issue is that to nerf it's core mechanic (minicrits on airborne enemies), so Pyro can gain so much damage for essentially free, will relegate it to total obscurity on Soldier (or more so than already).

Lastly, if reflected projectiles do less to Pyro than they would to Soldier/Demo, that's definitely something that needs looking into.

I think the main issue is that the combination of Degreaser + most Pyro unlocks have bred the Pyro into a quick-reaction combo-centric class. Because we've grown so used to it, we simply do not want to try out new things because we go into testing with the thought that the Degreaser is already the best or optimal choice. Removing the Degreaser will not neuter Pyro. Pyro players have become so used to Degreaser making things easier that they simply don't want to switch back.

I don't see how Pyro will be less effective if we ban out Degreaser in a test match. Do it a few times I say. I think its not so much that Degreaser has a huge switch speed boost, but that it's a HUGE switch speed boost.